Fisher Fury, impuse buy!

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Mark-insert old BMW said:

If you were looking for something cheap, an M44/1.9 twin cam from a BMW Z3 or Compact can be had for less than £200 and are pretty bulletproof. I stuck some S54 ITB's and DTA on mine.

be a fun little lump ive had a 318is with a m44. but it flows the wrong way so would be a bit of a job to fit. not impossible tho . but be way easier to put a zetec in for similar power and way more aftermarket parts.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Jhonno said:

Sounds like back to basics.. Start with timing (check timing marks/tdc etc) and work through to the carb.

And yes it is very cool. I am biased though.

indeeded! im not doing it for him, happy to help tho. ive made all the suggestions even suggested he, bring it over and we can spend the day fettling.

im sure it wil happen over the winter when he puts the crotch rockets away.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

AW111 said:

Zephyr Speedshop said:

im pretty confident that its, a N/A engine now. i thing the endoscope photos just confused a few people as they do look dished. but they look like the right pistons the even have the flat valve recceses on.

if it is making its quoted 106 bhp . then that would make it 176bhp per ton (it doesnt feel like this to me, but i think its very linier in the power delivery). i think i wants to be nearer the 300 bhp per ton mark to feel properly fast. and stay drivable. to put that in perspective it would need to be 180 bhp to achevie that . and 120 bhp is 200bhp per ton. the turbo 205 was 263 per tone and my 208 is 216.

so i really think the tiwn cam is a viable engine. with stand alone with electronic ignition and itb's i think its realistic to get it into the 120/130 mark. just letting it rev, will help as it feels like it wants to pull past the limiter. the guy croft book suggests the 1.6 is happy reving up to 8k rpm. id feel alot happier if it had at least uprated rod bolts for that. current rpm limit is 6.5k from the original weber ecu.

further down the line a set of cams and a ported and mayble mildly decked. would make it abit of a ripper. without braking the bank, or having to put somthing else into it.

I navigate a rally car powered by a Lampredi twincam in FIAT guise.
It's a 1750 on twin weber downdrafts, and is good for about 130 bhp, if my memory serves.
They do need to rev.

thats encourging, im going to get a hold an omex 600 or similar.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Mr Tidy said:

I think the twin-cam is a viable option. The 1,608cc engine in the Fiat 124BC Coupe made a claimed 110bhp using points and a single twin-choke Solex or Weber carb.

With cams, porting, electronic ignition and twin carbs, or better still ITBs, 130+ shouldn't be a problem.

And they really do love to rev! When Motor magazine tested a Fiat 125 that had a red-line at 6,200rpm they took their maximum speeds in gears readings at 6,750, but I don't think their early test car had a tacho!

like i said this engine really feels like it wants to pull through the limiter. ive starred reading the guy croft book properly. and it actually says the 105tc cast pistons are happy reving to 8.5k with out issue which surprises me. i guess will see where it starts to roll over. and limit it just after that. i need to check the numbers but the 105tc head is one of the better heads. it will flow up to 188bhp. but i think i need to spend a the capital of a small nation to get the 1.6 to do that NA.

plan is omex 600, lose all the dodgy wiring, dizzy and pcv stuff. if i can afford it some itb's and let it rev see what it it wants to make.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Regbuser said:

I think it will be a cracker!
Now get on with it!

Alright jeez, just letting the money tree recover from. The lsd and final drive

That and guy (higgs) didn't pick up the phone, as I need to discuss injectiors the wiring loom. And best way to put a trigger wheel on it. That will work with the omex, the 4 tooth trigger on the crank definitely won't cut it

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Minor update. Had a bit of time to fettle lats night.

Cleaned up all the earths as noticed the head light had dropped out again.

I need to change them for a better option there those horrible little spade terminals that rivet to the chassis. They all way come loose/corrode.

Also got my sheet of ally sheet so used some good old fashioned cad to make a new exhaust outlet.



It's at the front of the holes as the exhaust expands do much I can't believe how much the tip moves. Its at least 10mm.





Much better. Not a gaping hole there now.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Oh fk, I think the tc might be a done after all.

Port solent slip road on the m27 if you guy know it. It's basically a 275 degree spiral that tightens it's great but of road. Well I think we oil starvation. And it's got a knocking sound above 3k.

I'm an idiot because I noticed the oil pressure gauge does move around but just assumed the it was electrical not actually oil pressure as the engine was running great. And its still running. Anyway it turns out it was also low on oil. It was at the top mark on the dip stick. However after muck about tonight the oil pressure is completely stable now I have the oil 30mm above the top mark on the dip stick.

I've also found this. I think I mentioned it before this engine is mounted on and angle from factory.



Look at the oil heights. The exhaust bank has much taller fences on the drains. And the inlet side has lower once. It's supposed to run the valve train in an oil bath. The drains are also outboard. So in a long left handed corner the right bank will drain almost completely. I'm going to get the cam bucket off to me buddy who can put a few rows of weld around the drains. To build it up.

Now with the old screwdriver stethoscope it sounds like both exhaust and inlet of no4 are tapping. As it's both I think it's actually rod knock.

It sounds fine below 3k and not bad on full throttle but you can just hear it. I always thought rod knock would be present at all times. And idle ? But Maybe this points to it not being to far gone and actually recoverable.

This should be a video if you click on it


I'll get the sump off the weekend and pull the bearing caps. As. I can't see what else it would be.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

I think is salvageable. But some of you guy will know better than me.
It hadn't spun and if the bearings but it's has toasted them.

There is a very light Mark inthe crank on no2 and a worse one in no1.



No1
Hears the bearings.

No2


No3


No4


I guess the only way forward is to clean up the crank best I can with some scotchbrite or wet and dry. Throw a set of bearings at it and see what it does.

Here's the dip stick to pickup ratio I think it needs another 50mm height of oil and still be below the cranks.



I'll be cutting that off at a more appropriate height. To avoid any future fk ups

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Yazza54 said:

Agree that's what I'd do now, clean crank up by hand, new bearings and monitor the oil more carefully. I wonder if someone modified the sump and pickup but used a standard dipstick? It certainly doesn't look right

Yep it's all been modified. I did know that. However. Something still isn't right. As that dip stick is way to low. The standard sump would have only had an inch removed. It has a copy of the guy Croft winged sump on. So what volume is lost is mostly added back on. This engine should have 6liters of oil in. However at a guess I've dropped 4 out. That's with the oil from the cam bucket as well. And the extra liter and a half I put in last night. I will measure how much I've removed.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I can't see why the oil level shouldn't be just below the cranks. So there not spinning in it but have as much oil available as possible .

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Dan Juan said:

That’s a crap peice of luck. I work in Portchester and live in Southampton so I know that slip road very well and had often mused that you’d want a baffled sump of going round it quickly.
Your fury looks great - a colleague had a bike engined one. One of the prettiest kit cars and also by all accounts properly engineered to handle.
Looks like you’ve got it all apart so you’re most of the way to a lasting resolution.
I’ve got an mk1 eunos with 2.5l klde v6 in it. I think at least one fury has had one of them in it which would be epic for the noise alone but the swap would be a big project and one you’d need the right suppliers to be motivated.
Hope spares or breaker engines are readily available for you as it looks like you ( and your little’un) love the car.

Yeah plenty to choose from. I'm hopeful this will make it as I was just getting into the idea of this engine.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

My buddy has the good sense to tell me to check the mains as well, And there all mint. So that is good news

[Zephyr Speedshop]

andburg said:

Wtf is going in with the welds along the oil pickup? Looks like it’s been cut with a dremel and then welded back up.

Bet the inside of that is lovely and free flowing

Yeah it is abit odd. However it makes 50psi at idle and 70 plus up the rpm range so I think it's alright if ugly.

So frustrating but I guess it's way better to find out now rather than on the dyno, track day or after I've spent cash on it.

Having thought about it all afternoon I think I'm going to try and blow torch the transfer off. I can't think of another safe way to get it off. Maybe a fine Scotch Brite or 2000 grit ?

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Mark-insert old BMW said:

Fingers crossed that it's easily sorted. Oh and kudos for jumping straight in to sorting all the little issues on the Fury. I'm still hoping I might find my way into one of my own next year. I'd really like one with a BMW power plant but I'm not sure how viable that really is? Meanwhile, I'll be watching the journey with yours.

If you get a tall bonnet one. It should fit, although I do think the 6pots would put too much weight in the nose. And bloody close to the pushrod suspension. Id be tempted by a vr6 as I love the sound. But again there freaking heavy.

The homologated e92 320si engine (I know they love to implode) but that would be a cracker and id imagine it wouldn't take a huge amount to get big rpm out of it. Like the wtc car

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Update!

I don't want to jinx it but I think we might be all good.

Below photos are from the series of frustrated photos I sent my dad (no 1 the worst one ) although he's not a petrol head, he's a bloody gifted engineer and I've never not known him fix/bodge something. Not limited to jb welding the engine block on his boat he's not replied yet but yesterday he thought I wouldn't have much luck. Until he sore the photos and suggested to try blow torching the white metal off. Whilst I was able to melt the Bearing itself. I couldn't get the crank got enough to do it.


|https://thumbsnap.com/ZjTnbjPT[/url]

was able to get the white metal molten on the shell






[url]

I was being way too gentle. Then I started putting some elbow grease in and I think with literally all of my various appendages Crossed it will fight another day.



Crank journals across the land are shuddering!

Awkward weight for parts now just want the shells so I can crack on. I've also ordered some assembly lube as I want to give it the best possible chance to work. Will also crank it till I get oil pressure without the plugs in.

Can everyone cross there fingers and crack a beer. I need all of the luck for this lump. As I was just starting to really like the idea of 8k rpm and itbs. I must also add the engine is like bloody new inside. It's absolutely mint. Be a travisty if it doesn't make it.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

sdh2903 said:

That pickup looks way too high. How much would you estimate the gap between it and the sump is? Should only be 6 or 8mm or so gap.

That's a job for tomorrow although it does have a modified sump so. I suspect it is about right. My understanding is that the oil level generally isn't an issue as long as the cranks aren't swimming in it. So there's at least another 50/60 mm of oil level available. Possibly more. I'm got to mark the dipstick about 5/10mm below the crank path. And run with that. I'm sure in a high end race engine there's a negative to that but for what this engine will do the I can't see an issue. Rather have more of the luby stuff

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Curiosity got the cat. And I had a measure.

There's about 15mm between the picku and the base of the sump , then there's approximately 70mm from the cranks to the base of the pick up. .

So that doesn't leave me much room. The oil seems stable at around 30mm above the top mark. So I think what I will do is put marks on the dip stick every 10 mm and then run the minimum oil it takes for it to be stable at all times. I can't think of a better way to make sure it's safe.

Presumably if the oil is airated I will run into pressure issues as well so ther will be a sweet spot in between.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

It's not a the best tc big wing sump copy but I don't think it's too bad. It's supposed to have trap doors out of the wings. However this sort of loosely does the same thing. I'm sure if it was a racing application this would be dog st but for the odd track day and mucking about I think it will be fine.







It just needs enough oil, I took 3.5 ish liters out. After I added over a litre!!! This engine should have 5-6 litres of oil in. With the wings added to the sump the capacity can't be far off the original. Well not 2 liters worth anyway.

I think I could safely add another liter to the 3.5 and still be well clear of the cranks.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

andburg said:

What’s the capacity of the lower area? I’d guess that’s been vastly reduced to allow fitment and that such a long bend starved it rather than a poor pickup or low oil level.

Any room to add more capacity to that area? I’d expect adding extra oil to help but if the reservoir for pickup is too small I don’t think baffles would.

A Google of fiat twin cam sump gives a plethora of big wing conversions to increase the low down capacity.

As I said just a slightly drunken glance the oil capacity is very similar. It's has approx an 1" removed an then the wings added on. So it's more of a relocation than reduction.

The problem is the dipstick was never corrected so only the telepathic would know to add another 30/50mm of oil

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Yazza54 said:

AW111 said:

We've been hammering the FIAT with a 1600 then 1750 twincam through the forests for a lot of years, I'm pretty sure it's a standard sump.

Then again you get more sideways G forces on tarmac.

Fury has a very shallow engine bay though so ground clearance can be an issue

exactly this, im sure the sandard sump would have been absolule up to the job. but the currentt setup is only about 100/150mm off the ground. im pretty confident, that with more oil it will be absoloutely fine.

[Zephyr Speedshop]

Mark-insert old BMW said:

Have you ever run an accusump? People used to suggest one for my E30 M3 as the s14/2.3 suffers on fast right hand bends. BMW Motorsport recommend overfilling the oil to the first kink above max on the dipstick, so I just did that.

thats not in the budget . although i cant ever see a senario where it would need it. even on track, thruxton is about the worst it will ver see.