Here's what's wrong with the roads
Discussion
Driven quite a bit in France and Germany this year, not only do they not have potholes they don't generally even have repaired potholes. Worst I've seen is the occasional line of tar sealant to fill a crack (A roads and motorways). Seems like if the road is at the pothole stage it's just resurfaced completely, to a really high standard.
Here, they've just this weekend finished a short bit of road resurfacing on the A12 in Essex. It's nowhere near flat, it'll "just about do" but I suspect the imperfections will just lead to more cracks and potholes sooner as tires thump over the badly done bits.
Even more significant, we had a local B road resurfaced within the past twelve months, again not great but just about ok. A small new local housing project in a field has literally dug 12 new drains straight across the resurfaced road and wrecked the surface immediately (patched not resurfaced). Guaranteed potholes this winter.
If they dig new drains in France or Germany, or repair pipes, install cable etc. then either it's being done away from the road itself or the road is being completely resurfaced.
Just my observations.
Here, they've just this weekend finished a short bit of road resurfacing on the A12 in Essex. It's nowhere near flat, it'll "just about do" but I suspect the imperfections will just lead to more cracks and potholes sooner as tires thump over the badly done bits.
Even more significant, we had a local B road resurfaced within the past twelve months, again not great but just about ok. A small new local housing project in a field has literally dug 12 new drains straight across the resurfaced road and wrecked the surface immediately (patched not resurfaced). Guaranteed potholes this winter.
If they dig new drains in France or Germany, or repair pipes, install cable etc. then either it's being done away from the road itself or the road is being completely resurfaced.
Just my observations.
Agreed.
I remember literally ONE pothole from Germany when I went in March.
Iirc, in Holland they tend to have lots of brick paving in residential areas. Utility companies must put it back how it was after works completed.
However, Belgium seem to have taken a leaf out of our book.......
I remember literally ONE pothole from Germany when I went in March.
Iirc, in Holland they tend to have lots of brick paving in residential areas. Utility companies must put it back how it was after works completed.
However, Belgium seem to have taken a leaf out of our book.......
It's not so much the road that's the issue but the way out government deal with it.
We outsource the repair work to an external firm who make millions from the contract. Approved supplier lists are the pain here, hard to get on, but once on you can take the piss on pricing.
The contract drawn up is feeble, so the contractor can then get away with crap repairs.
None of the council works will inspect the work, it's all hands off, so the poor work degrades until it falls apart.
As such there are two things that could improve things.
1) Insource road repairs.
2) Inspect every road repair and ensure it's done again if not up to scratch.
Until we fundamentally change how it's managed, we're down to reporting via fix my street, waiting the SLA'd permitted time, and then poor repairs.
We outsource the repair work to an external firm who make millions from the contract. Approved supplier lists are the pain here, hard to get on, but once on you can take the piss on pricing.
The contract drawn up is feeble, so the contractor can then get away with crap repairs.
None of the council works will inspect the work, it's all hands off, so the poor work degrades until it falls apart.
As such there are two things that could improve things.
1) Insource road repairs.
2) Inspect every road repair and ensure it's done again if not up to scratch.
Until we fundamentally change how it's managed, we're down to reporting via fix my street, waiting the SLA'd permitted time, and then poor repairs.
Totally agree. Just back from a 3,000 mile road trip, 1,000 in the UK. The difference is stark and frankly, shameful at how rubbish the UK is at maintaining decent quality infrastructure.
France, as you say, not a single pothole observed on a very wide variation of roads. Some very very rural and forgotten villages didn't have great roads but they were undulating rather than broken up like ours. Not even the sides of the road, where ours crumble into the curb.
What I found interesting was the scope and speed of repairs. A couple of examples stick out.
On our way to our accommodation on a Saturday, we travelled down a fairly main (A equivalent) road, which didn't seem to be in a bad state. Day relaxing by the pool and went out on the Monday. In that time, the French had literally stripped back the best part of a km of one side of the road and completely resurfaced it billiard table smooth and the equipment was there to tackle the other side. A couple of guys with stop/go boards, people clearly working, hardly any hi-vis and a few cones to keep people moving in the right way.
Came back later in the afternoon and they'd planed the whole other carriageway for the full km or so and cars were contraflow on the newly laid section.
Next day, went out in the afternoon, and no workers to be seen. The other carriageway fully laid, billiard smooth and open to traffic. Nearly a km of entirely fresh laid road surface, that a couple of days later had road markings back on it.
Driving back home we passed through a town where much of the main road through it was being resurfaced. A very short diversion where the equipment was being held and then back to the main road. This had been planed and the guys were flat out resurfacing the other side of the (two way) road. No messing about with closing the road, cones everywhere, traffic lights or anything. Couple of guys with stop/go boards keeping things moving.
Again, the job was fully stripping back the road from edge to edge, fully relaying billiard smooth tarmac.
This happens all over France in the smallest of villages, no patch and mend but extensive relaying of high quality surface from kerb to kerb.
It's great for the cyclists as they can ride along the edge with no fear of falling in a hole too.
Get back to the UK an I cannot fathom why we can't even lay tarmac flat when we do properly resurface. And the patch and mend approach is now so bad that I can appreciate its impossibly expensive now to recover our infrastructure to good condition as it's all so bad. Classic case of the british curse of short termism and cutting costs that have done nothing but store up long term unfixable problems.
The French / Germans / Swiss have a much much better approach to these things. UK. Rubbish, and getting worse.
France, as you say, not a single pothole observed on a very wide variation of roads. Some very very rural and forgotten villages didn't have great roads but they were undulating rather than broken up like ours. Not even the sides of the road, where ours crumble into the curb.
What I found interesting was the scope and speed of repairs. A couple of examples stick out.
On our way to our accommodation on a Saturday, we travelled down a fairly main (A equivalent) road, which didn't seem to be in a bad state. Day relaxing by the pool and went out on the Monday. In that time, the French had literally stripped back the best part of a km of one side of the road and completely resurfaced it billiard table smooth and the equipment was there to tackle the other side. A couple of guys with stop/go boards, people clearly working, hardly any hi-vis and a few cones to keep people moving in the right way.
Came back later in the afternoon and they'd planed the whole other carriageway for the full km or so and cars were contraflow on the newly laid section.
Next day, went out in the afternoon, and no workers to be seen. The other carriageway fully laid, billiard smooth and open to traffic. Nearly a km of entirely fresh laid road surface, that a couple of days later had road markings back on it.
Driving back home we passed through a town where much of the main road through it was being resurfaced. A very short diversion where the equipment was being held and then back to the main road. This had been planed and the guys were flat out resurfacing the other side of the (two way) road. No messing about with closing the road, cones everywhere, traffic lights or anything. Couple of guys with stop/go boards keeping things moving.
Again, the job was fully stripping back the road from edge to edge, fully relaying billiard smooth tarmac.
This happens all over France in the smallest of villages, no patch and mend but extensive relaying of high quality surface from kerb to kerb.
It's great for the cyclists as they can ride along the edge with no fear of falling in a hole too.
Get back to the UK an I cannot fathom why we can't even lay tarmac flat when we do properly resurface. And the patch and mend approach is now so bad that I can appreciate its impossibly expensive now to recover our infrastructure to good condition as it's all so bad. Classic case of the british curse of short termism and cutting costs that have done nothing but store up long term unfixable problems.
The French / Germans / Swiss have a much much better approach to these things. UK. Rubbish, and getting worse.
supacool1 said:
Yeah is super sad how good the roads are in Europe and how depressing it is to be back on the cratered roads off the Chunnel. Ireland had the best road network as well. So clean and every motorway was spotless and the grass by the side of the roads were perfectly manicured.
That's a very broad statement. There are certainly areas of Europe which are far better than the UK, but there are also areas which make the UK roads look nigh-on perfect. Unfortunately whilst most of Europe seems to be improving its roads, ours seem to be getting worse so whilst we're not at the bottom of the pile yet, we're certainly heading there. Unfortunately tax revenue isn't anywhere near enough to cover public services and road maintenance is one public service it's very easy to neglect because it involves not fixing things rather than actively breaking them.
We had just had a new drive circa 200m long laid. Gigaclear came along and said they needed to install cable, would cut a trench in the drive and reinstate.
I said they could only do that if they made the drive good to its current new standard, and provided them with a draft agreement.
The refused to sign the agreement and didn't install the cable because they said they have a policy of not making good to the original standard, just patching and making do. This is very evident in the rest of the village, where 3 years on the pavements are breaking up where Gigaclear installed the cables.
In the roads, why do we fill one pothole but ignore the pothole next to it which will evidently need sorting in a month or so? It must cost more to send people to the same location multiple times than just once. There is no advanced planning just fire fighting. I would be out of business if I used that approach at work.
I said they could only do that if they made the drive good to its current new standard, and provided them with a draft agreement.
The refused to sign the agreement and didn't install the cable because they said they have a policy of not making good to the original standard, just patching and making do. This is very evident in the rest of the village, where 3 years on the pavements are breaking up where Gigaclear installed the cables.
In the roads, why do we fill one pothole but ignore the pothole next to it which will evidently need sorting in a month or so? It must cost more to send people to the same location multiple times than just once. There is no advanced planning just fire fighting. I would be out of business if I used that approach at work.
blueg33 said:
In the roads, why do we fill one pothole but ignore the pothole next to it which will evidently need sorting in a month or so? It must cost more to send people to the same location multiple times than just once. There is no advanced planning just fire fighting. I would be out of business if I used that approach at work.
In simplistic terms, because local governments have huge cash-flow constraints. They don't have the capital to do preventative maintenance (or even proper repairs) out of their own pockets and they're effectively banned form borrowing money to do it. Central government has continuously cut the amount of money from primary taxation which is fed to local government whilst at the same time banning them from raising more through local taxation. All the while everything is getting more expensive. Put simply, repairing the roads properly (lets be honest, an awful lot of them are past patching and need completely relaying) would cost a massive amount of money which no-one is willing to pay.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 30th July 10:46
kambites said:
blueg33 said:
In the roads, why do we fill one pothole but ignore the pothole next to it which will evidently need sorting in a month or so? It must cost more to send people to the same location multiple times than just once. There is no advanced planning just fire fighting. I would be out of business if I used that approach at work.
In simplistic terms, because local governments have huge cash-flow constraints. They don't have the capital to do preventative maintenance (or even proper repairs) out of their own pockets and they're effectively banned form borrowing money to do it. Central government has continuously cut the amount of money from primary taxation which is fed to local government whilst at the same time banning them from raising more through local taxation. All the while everything is getting more expensive. France has a population density that's less than half of the UK's so it's to be expected that their roads will hold up better.
Germany is slightly less than us so more comparable.
Italy sits between France and Germany and their roads (certainly in Tuscany) are way worse than in the UK.
Germany is slightly less than us so more comparable.
Italy sits between France and Germany and their roads (certainly in Tuscany) are way worse than in the UK.
Here in Norfolk they're in full 'Surface Dressing' mode (spray with tar, smother with gravel, job done).
Have they bothered reparing/filling in the potholes before carrying out this?
Nope.
Not so much papering over the cracks as tarring over the potholes.
So, the road now has potholes that have a lining of tar & gravel and will inevitably need repairng before the end of winter.
Have they bothered reparing/filling in the potholes before carrying out this?
Nope.
Not so much papering over the cracks as tarring over the potholes.
So, the road now has potholes that have a lining of tar & gravel and will inevitably need repairng before the end of winter.
skyebear said:
France has a population density that's less than half of the UK's so it's to be expected that their roads will hold up better.
Germany is slightly less than us so more comparable.
Italy sits between France and Germany and their roads (certainly in Tuscany) are way worse than in the UK.
Also Germany has a taxation to GDP ratio of 0.375; France is 0.462; Italy 0.424; the UK is 0.333. Up our overall taxation to the same proportion of GDP as the Germans pay (the lowest of those three countries) and that would add something like £60bn to yearly tax take, which would repair a lot of roads! Germany is slightly less than us so more comparable.
Italy sits between France and Germany and their roads (certainly in Tuscany) are way worse than in the UK.
The British public are obsessed with low taxes, yet complain when public services can't match those of otherwise comparable countries which pay far more.
There are of course a few notable exceptions. Ireland has increadibly low tax take by European standards, as does Switzerland but both of those are rather special cases because a large part of their economy thrives on businesses which don't pay local tax but do contribute to GDP figures.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 30th July 11:03
skyebear said:
France has a population density that's less than half of the UK's so it's to be expected that their roads will hold up better.
Germany is slightly less than us so more comparable.
Italy sits between France and Germany and their roads (certainly in Tuscany) are way worse than in the UK.
Why is it to be expected? I get the logic, but that should be an argument to invest in higher quality standards more appropriate to the expected use and wear and tear. Seems to me we invest less and put more demand on the infrastructure. Thats a dumb strategy and only leads to failure. Germany is slightly less than us so more comparable.
Italy sits between France and Germany and their roads (certainly in Tuscany) are way worse than in the UK.
I agree though, Italy is no standard bearer for road infrastructure.
Here in Harrogate they seem to be taking a similar approach with resurfacing quite a few pavements.
It looks like a really shonky job to me, the surface finish is not like anything I've seen as a finished surface before and some of the access covers look like theyight be a bugger to remove.
A lot of other pavements throughout the town are currently being done to a similar low standard.
It looks like a really shonky job to me, the surface finish is not like anything I've seen as a finished surface before and some of the access covers look like theyight be a bugger to remove.
A lot of other pavements throughout the town are currently being done to a similar low standard.
Edited by JimbobVFR on Tuesday 30th July 11:11
skyebear said:
France has a population density that's less than half of the UK's so it's to be expected that their roads will hold up better.
Germany is slightly less than us so more comparable.
Italy sits between France and Germany and their roads (certainly in Tuscany) are way worse than in the UK.
With a similar population to the UK they have many more miles of roads to pay for.Germany is slightly less than us so more comparable.
Italy sits between France and Germany and their roads (certainly in Tuscany) are way worse than in the UK.
blueg33 said:
Its idiotic. Over the course of the last 3 months they have been to our village 4 times, just fixing 2 potholes each time. They are not on site for more than a couple of hours. That cannot be efficient. The gulf in standards of workmanship between different teams is also very obvious. Some of the fixed potholes will definitely be potholes again by February.
Thats the problem and what really stood out for me in France. People actually working, through the day, into the evening, over the weekend, getting stuff done to a high quality and in a very productive way with some pride in the end result. Here, none of that seems to happen. Stuff takes forever, is done on the cheap, slap-dash as little as you can get away with and sod the consequences, away by lunchtime. If thats symptomatic of large parts of the economy it's no wonder the country is on its knees. We laugh at the French 35 hour week, but I bet in may cases they get a lot more out of those 35 hours than we do in 50. biggles330d said:
Why is it to be expected? I get the logic, but that should be an argument to invest in higher quality standards more appropriate to the expected use and wear and tear. Seems to me we invest less and put more demand on the infrastructure. Thats a dumb strategy and only leads to failure.
I agree though, Italy is no standard bearer for road infrastructure.
I don't disagree but nor did I want to get into the litany of reasons why it's so. I was just wishing to offer a rebuttal to the OP's lazy assertion that everything is sI agree though, Italy is no standard bearer for road infrastructure.
t in the UK compared to other countries.phil4 said:
It's not so much the road that's the issue but the way out government deal with it.
We outsource the repair work to an external firm who make millions from the contract. Approved supplier lists are the pain here, hard to get on, but once on you can take the piss on pricing.
The contract drawn up is feeble, so the contractor can then get away with crap repairs.
None of the council works will inspect the work, it's all hands off, so the poor work degrades until it falls apart.
As such there are two things that could improve things.
1) Insource road repairs.
2) Inspect every road repair and ensure it's done again if not up to scratch.
Until we fundamentally change how it's managed, we're down to reporting via fix my street, waiting the SLA'd permitted time, and then poor repairs.
Now I admit my use case is slightly different to the majority of people. I live on a single track lane servicing 4 properties, probably 1/2 mile long. It's used mainly by the residents and farm vehicles.We outsource the repair work to an external firm who make millions from the contract. Approved supplier lists are the pain here, hard to get on, but once on you can take the piss on pricing.
The contract drawn up is feeble, so the contractor can then get away with crap repairs.
None of the council works will inspect the work, it's all hands off, so the poor work degrades until it falls apart.
As such there are two things that could improve things.
1) Insource road repairs.
2) Inspect every road repair and ensure it's done again if not up to scratch.
Until we fundamentally change how it's managed, we're down to reporting via fix my street, waiting the SLA'd permitted time, and then poor repairs.
When we moved here 5 years ago the road was in a terrible state, circa 40+ pot holes (1/2 mile let's not forget), however the council had plans to resurface which they duly did with a month or two of moving in.
Roll forward less than 6 months and heavy rain had created several pot holes, I knew no one else on the lane would actually take the time to report them to the council via the website, but I spent a good few hours up and down the lane taking photos, measuring then, taking location (GPS data) and logging them individually on their website. They were inspected quickly and some repaired, some not. A few months later more pot holes - rinse and repeat the above. Some of the original pot holes which they deemed not large enough to repair had now grown to over 25 meters in length and 5 foot wide!!! Something I made a point of pointing out when I had to relog the pot hole again.
This time they were repaired, but as you can imagine this didn't last long and around I went again, to my suprise a little over a year since the road was resurfaced it was completely resurfaced again.
But, as you can imagine more pot holes again and I am back logging them again. One of the neighbours had their sons fill the worse with postcrete which has helped, but the council have just washed their hands of it.
My point is if no one is marking the contractors homework how much is this costing the tax payer and this is for 4 properties.
skyebear said:
biggles330d said:
Why is it to be expected? I get the logic, but that should be an argument to invest in higher quality standards more appropriate to the expected use and wear and tear. Seems to me we invest less and put more demand on the infrastructure. Thats a dumb strategy and only leads to failure.
I agree though, Italy is no standard bearer for road infrastructure.
I don't disagree but nor did I want to get into the litany of reasons why it's so. I was just wishing to offer a rebuttal to the OP's lazy assertion that everything is sI agree though, Italy is no standard bearer for road infrastructure.
t in the UK compared to other countries.Ah yes, thought so, I specifically said France and Germany, didn't mention Italy.
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