Highways England/National Highways, you had one job...
Discussion
Highways England/National Highways/Whatever they will be called six months from now, should be making the road network run efficiently. But they aren't. Yes, there's the "smart" motorway debacle which has been a colossal waste of money. But there are many other poor decisions that they make, one of which I witnessed this evening.
Coming back from Oxfordshire, my journey on the M40 towards London was uneventful, but things went wrong as soon as I hit the M25 at around 11pm. The variable speed limit display was reading 20MPH (yes, on a motorway) for no apparent reason. So traffic kept speeding up between gantries to around 50mph, and then slowing down for the gantries. On one occasion, an artic nearly slammed into the back of a car which decided to slow back to 20 very sharply and right under the gantry. On another occasion, a car changing lanes skidded to a stop as another driver dropped the anchors in front of him. I know in both cases, it's the following driver's fault for being too close and for not obeying the speed limit even between gantries. What did Highways England think would happen. Forcing yourself to drive at 20mph is hard enough in the middle of London. But 20mph? On a 4-lane motorway?? Highways England, you had better hire a psychologist to understand how human beings think.
After a few miles, there was finally a sign saying "Pedestrians in Road". There was a police car on the other carriageway with some people standing around behind a car. But is the whole motorway going to have to slow to a crawl every time someone stands on tarmac on a motorway? Is that what you call "smart". And why were the gantry signs restricting traffic to 20MPH from Junction 16 (and possibly farther) all the way to J14, a total of more than 7 miles? Four junctions, all at 20 MPH? Absolutely ridiculous. Did you ever hear the story of the boy who cried wolf? If you keep slowing the entire motorway to a crawl for no reason, people are going to stop respecting the speed limit and speed up between gantries.
Oh, and why the sign saying no access to the A30 doe to Cadent works? I took a diversion by getting off at Heathrow Terminal 5, then drove through Wraysbury to get to the A30, only to discover that there were no works at all at J13. I needn't have diverted at all.
Highways England, if you are going to try to be clever, by using electronic signs to control traffic, make sure those signs are accurate and don't hold people up for any longer than necessary.
A. V. Unhappy Road Fund Licence (x5) Payer.
Coming back from Oxfordshire, my journey on the M40 towards London was uneventful, but things went wrong as soon as I hit the M25 at around 11pm. The variable speed limit display was reading 20MPH (yes, on a motorway) for no apparent reason. So traffic kept speeding up between gantries to around 50mph, and then slowing down for the gantries. On one occasion, an artic nearly slammed into the back of a car which decided to slow back to 20 very sharply and right under the gantry. On another occasion, a car changing lanes skidded to a stop as another driver dropped the anchors in front of him. I know in both cases, it's the following driver's fault for being too close and for not obeying the speed limit even between gantries. What did Highways England think would happen. Forcing yourself to drive at 20mph is hard enough in the middle of London. But 20mph? On a 4-lane motorway?? Highways England, you had better hire a psychologist to understand how human beings think.
After a few miles, there was finally a sign saying "Pedestrians in Road". There was a police car on the other carriageway with some people standing around behind a car. But is the whole motorway going to have to slow to a crawl every time someone stands on tarmac on a motorway? Is that what you call "smart". And why were the gantry signs restricting traffic to 20MPH from Junction 16 (and possibly farther) all the way to J14, a total of more than 7 miles? Four junctions, all at 20 MPH? Absolutely ridiculous. Did you ever hear the story of the boy who cried wolf? If you keep slowing the entire motorway to a crawl for no reason, people are going to stop respecting the speed limit and speed up between gantries.
Oh, and why the sign saying no access to the A30 doe to Cadent works? I took a diversion by getting off at Heathrow Terminal 5, then drove through Wraysbury to get to the A30, only to discover that there were no works at all at J13. I needn't have diverted at all.
Highways England, if you are going to try to be clever, by using electronic signs to control traffic, make sure those signs are accurate and don't hold people up for any longer than necessary.
A. V. Unhappy Road Fund Licence (x5) Payer.
Edited by LunarOne on Monday 19th December 09:41
I’ve stopped paying attention to a lot of works/ diversion signs if I know the area as more often than not they’re incorrect. I’d rather not have a large detour when one isn’t required as I’ve found out a couple of times. Not always Highways England though as I wonder if contractors pass on information for the gantrys saying to use the M42 rather than the M5 to reach “The North” due to road works. As soon as my navigation rerouted to the M42, I turned around immediately due to the huge and ridiculous time difference.
SlowcoachIII said:
I’ve stopped paying attention to a lot of works/ diversion signs if I know the area as more often than not they’re incorrect. I’d rather not have a large detour when one isn’t required as I’ve found out a couple of times. Not always Highways England though as I wonder if contractors pass on information for the gantrys saying to use the M42 rather than the M5 to reach “The North” due to road works. As soon as my navigation rerouted to the M42, I turned around immediately due to the huge and ridiculous time difference.
With the diversions tbf they have to plan a route to suit the tallest, heaviest vehicle ie hgv’s so there is often much quicker/shorter routes you could take in a car. Same if motorways are closed at night say j14-15, but at 14 there’s a low bridge then they’ll shut it from 13 to avoid it via a different route. As for the speed reductions they’re an absolute joke. Very rarely correct, often left on for hours/ days after. It’s no wonder people don’t follow them.
M6 at j16 last week, about 1am pretty empty motorway then for no reason whatsoever ‘50’ then ‘40’ for queue ahead then more empty motorway and an ‘nsl’ sign.
I think the "ignoring gantry signs" thing is happening already. Saturday afternoon I was on the M4 eastbound approaching the M25 junction and all the gantries started to light up. "Lane closed ahead" and then, on the 5 lane bit, big red crosses over the three left hand lanes (which include the two filter lanes for the M25). Traffic was bunching up so I gently eased into lane 4 and found myself in a small minority: several hundred drivers completely ignored the red crosses, taking them straight into the welcoming arms of a bunch of police officers and traffic wombles who held them there while the outer two lanes continued past the accident scene. Cool story bro and I will admit to feeling smug.
The Govt recently ran a TV ad campaign explaining what the red crosses mean: it looks as though they might as well not have bothered. But yes, I've seen low speed limits over long stretches of motorway / DC: there was a small section of bent crash barrier on the A11 which had a 40mph restriction starting two miles in advance for absolutely ages. So you had cautious, law abiding types doing 40 or less, mixing it with regular A11 users at 70 plus. That is asking for trouble. Speed doesn't kill: speed differential kills. No doubt there is a documented process for these things but what if the process makes accidents more likely?
The Govt recently ran a TV ad campaign explaining what the red crosses mean: it looks as though they might as well not have bothered. But yes, I've seen low speed limits over long stretches of motorway / DC: there was a small section of bent crash barrier on the A11 which had a 40mph restriction starting two miles in advance for absolutely ages. So you had cautious, law abiding types doing 40 or less, mixing it with regular A11 users at 70 plus. That is asking for trouble. Speed doesn't kill: speed differential kills. No doubt there is a documented process for these things but what if the process makes accidents more likely?
LunarOne said:
A. V. Unhappy Road Fund Licence (x5) Payer.
Wikipedia said:
The accumulated Road Fund was never fully spent on roads (most of it was spent on resurfacing, not the building of new roads), and became notorious for being used for other government purposes, a practice introduced by Winston Churchill when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. In 1926, by which time the direct use of taxes collected from motorists to fund the road network was already opposed by many in government, the Chancellor, Winston Churchill is reported to have said in a memo: "Entertainments may be taxed; public houses may be taxed ... and the yield devoted to the general revenue. But motorists are to be privileged for all time to have the tax on motors devoted to roads? This is an outrage upon ... common sense." Hypothecation came to an end in 1937 under the 1936 Finance Act, and the proceeds of the vehicle road taxes were paid directly into the Exchequer. The Road Fund itself, then funded by government grants, was not abolished until 1955.
What you call Road Fund License hasn't been called that in a lifetime. The idea that car tax goes directly to roads is inaccurate and anachronistic. We pay tax on our cars for the privilege of owning and driving them. That tax is the same as any other tax. I don't have any argument with your main point (poorly implemented motorway traffic controls), but folk need to understand that roads are paid for out of general taxation, and that tax on your car and the fuel that goes in it just goes to the exchequer, the same as any other tax.I get on the M1 about junction 15 on my commute home north. For about 10-15 miles there is constant overhead gantry signs for 60 mph. I've never seen them at anything other than 60 mph for the year i have been doing the journey. There is/are no roadworks. Nobody in the road. Doesn't matter on the time of day or weather. Just a constant 60 relentlessly. I'm assuming someone is going to mention pollution.
Problem is everybody just accelerates to 70-75, then jumps on the brakes as they approach the gantry, rinse and repeat about 20-30 times and i cant believe its better for pollution than everybody just sticking to 70 mph or safer for the people using the stretch of M1.
Cheers the bunch of cretins they employ to run the s
t show that is the motorway network.
Problem is everybody just accelerates to 70-75, then jumps on the brakes as they approach the gantry, rinse and repeat about 20-30 times and i cant believe its better for pollution than everybody just sticking to 70 mph or safer for the people using the stretch of M1.
Cheers the bunch of cretins they employ to run the s
t show that is the motorway network.MB140 said:
I get on the M1 about junction 15 on my commute home north. For about 10-15 miles there is constant overhead gantry signs for 60 mph. I've never seen them at anything other than 60 mph for the year i have been doing the journey. There is/are no roadworks. Nobody in the road. Doesn't matter on the time of day or weather. Just a constant 60 relentlessly. I'm assuming someone is going to mention pollution.
Problem is everybody just accelerates to 70-75, then jumps on the brakes as they approach the gantry, rinse and repeat about 20-30 times and i cant believe its better for pollution than everybody just sticking to 70 mph or safer for the people using the stretch of M1.
Cheers the bunch of cretins they employ to run the st show that is the motorway network.
They have been testing the new stopped vehicle detection system on that section for a while, so whilst the smart upgrade works themselves are finished, this is the final piece of the jigsaw. Problem is everybody just accelerates to 70-75, then jumps on the brakes as they approach the gantry, rinse and repeat about 20-30 times and i cant believe its better for pollution than everybody just sticking to 70 mph or safer for the people using the stretch of M1.
Cheers the bunch of cretins they employ to run the s
t show that is the motorway network.Should all be normal running soon (whatever that may look like - if J13 to J15 is anything to go by, lanes 3 and 4 full of hoggers, lanes 1 and 2 full of professional drivers actually making progress).
clayts450 said:
MB140 said:
I get on the M1 about junction 15 on my commute home north. For about 10-15 miles there is constant overhead gantry signs for 60 mph. I've never seen them at anything other than 60 mph for the year i have been doing the journey. There is/are no roadworks. Nobody in the road. Doesn't matter on the time of day or weather. Just a constant 60 relentlessly. I'm assuming someone is going to mention pollution.
Problem is everybody just accelerates to 70-75, then jumps on the brakes as they approach the gantry, rinse and repeat about 20-30 times and i cant believe its better for pollution than everybody just sticking to 70 mph or safer for the people using the stretch of M1.
Cheers the bunch of cretins they employ to run the st show that is the motorway network.
They have been testing the new stopped vehicle detection system on that section for a while, so whilst the smart upgrade works themselves are finished, this is the final piece of the jigsaw. Problem is everybody just accelerates to 70-75, then jumps on the brakes as they approach the gantry, rinse and repeat about 20-30 times and i cant believe its better for pollution than everybody just sticking to 70 mph or safer for the people using the stretch of M1.
Cheers the bunch of cretins they employ to run the s
t show that is the motorway network.Should all be normal running soon (whatever that may look like - if J13 to J15 is anything to go by, lanes 3 and 4 full of hoggers, lanes 1 and 2 full of professional drivers actually making progress).
MB140 said:
So why set the limit to 60 for as far as I can recall about a year. I mean come on it can’t take a year to test a system.
That motorway section has been down to 3 lanes for the duration of the works (years and years). We're lucky it was a 60 limit and not a 50 limit as on the M6 !During 2022, the sections have gradually been re-opened as 4 lanes, but during each phase of re-opening there has been a further testing period for SVD. Gradually, little by little, NSL has been reintroduced, the most recent chunk being from J15 down to Newport Pagnall services.
The whole upgrade section J13-J16 is now 4 lanes, but the section from J15 north has only very recently re-opened in that form (15 November to be precise), so the SVD system is still under testing. According to NH website the whole section north of J15 should be back to NSL by March next year.
https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-roads/east/m1-j...
MB140 said:
Problem is everybody just accelerates to 70-75, then jumps on the brakes as they approach the gantry, rinse and repeat about 20-30 times and i cant believe its better for pollution than everybody just sticking to 70 mph or safer for the people using the stretch of M1.
This is why we have average speed cameras... The M25 has had variable speed limits for what, 25, 30 years now, and I remember the big signs explaining what to do when the variable limits were active. It didn't take long before people adopted the concertina approach to the gantries.Average speed zones, whilst a very very loud minority hate them more, do take away the benefit of significantly varying your speed. This makes traffic flow better than in the phantom jams built up by people braking for gantries. Average speed zones are closer to laminar flow, speedy/slowy use of gantries is analogous to turbulent flow
It also means that if you come across someone who refuses to use cruise/limiter and so matches your speed mid-overtake you can, at any time, squeeze on for a second to pass them rather than sitting there as part of their rolling roadblock.
TBH I think the biggest problem with average speed zones isn't the average speed zone per se, but rather the control room/bot that toggles a restriction incorrectly.
Agree with the above entirely.
MB140, on your next commute, try just using lanes 1 and 2 at 60mph GPS speed. Ignore lanes 3 and 4 completely (unless you come across an HGV overtaking an HGV). Guarantee you will make better progress than the concertina brake conga in lanes 3 and 4. Follow the adage of 'keep left unless overtaking and ignore the buffoons in the outer lane'.
Works for me, and I travel this section of the M1 a lot (same day courier).
TBF it also holds true for the section south of J13 as well. For sure, you'll rarely get over 60mph, but by 'eck it's a much less stressful drive, for sure, and most of the time you'll get to your destination about the same time as those in the outer lanes, if not before, without all the stress.
MB140, on your next commute, try just using lanes 1 and 2 at 60mph GPS speed. Ignore lanes 3 and 4 completely (unless you come across an HGV overtaking an HGV). Guarantee you will make better progress than the concertina brake conga in lanes 3 and 4. Follow the adage of 'keep left unless overtaking and ignore the buffoons in the outer lane'.
Works for me, and I travel this section of the M1 a lot (same day courier).
TBF it also holds true for the section south of J13 as well. For sure, you'll rarely get over 60mph, but by 'eck it's a much less stressful drive, for sure, and most of the time you'll get to your destination about the same time as those in the outer lanes, if not before, without all the stress.
Mentioned this on other threads but went a good few years without really doing much motorway mileage- if we were holidaying it was abroad.
Covid, then the airport chaos, meant we recently tried some big road trips in the UK for the first time, which saw me venture back out on to the M25, M1, etc for the first time in several years
What a shambles. I was gobsmacked how badly managed our main motorways have become. I estimated that the road signs were wrong probably 90%+ of the time.
Endless gantries, signs, lights, not only a distraction but providing inaccurate information.
Throw in constantly changing speed limits, again often for no reason, and sneaky speed cameras on the sides of gantries, modern motoring on Britain’s motorways seems to be spending the large majority of your attention on the gantries, sides of the road, your sat nav, thinking “s*** was that a speed camera, whats the (variable) limit here did you see, was that one, whats the limit now can you tell, where are those pedestrians we were told were in the road, is it still 50mph or did it end, there is an articulated lorry up my jacksy should I speed up to 70 or will I get 3 points on my license”
As soon as the roads go back to NSL without too much intervention it becomes normal, safe driving
Covid, then the airport chaos, meant we recently tried some big road trips in the UK for the first time, which saw me venture back out on to the M25, M1, etc for the first time in several years
What a shambles. I was gobsmacked how badly managed our main motorways have become. I estimated that the road signs were wrong probably 90%+ of the time.
Endless gantries, signs, lights, not only a distraction but providing inaccurate information.
Throw in constantly changing speed limits, again often for no reason, and sneaky speed cameras on the sides of gantries, modern motoring on Britain’s motorways seems to be spending the large majority of your attention on the gantries, sides of the road, your sat nav, thinking “s*** was that a speed camera, whats the (variable) limit here did you see, was that one, whats the limit now can you tell, where are those pedestrians we were told were in the road, is it still 50mph or did it end, there is an articulated lorry up my jacksy should I speed up to 70 or will I get 3 points on my license”
As soon as the roads go back to NSL without too much intervention it becomes normal, safe driving
I can see the reasoning if it's pedestrians in road - if someone is mad/drunk/drugged/ill enough to be on a motorway then they're not going to be thinking that they must only stick to one side of the road. If there's enough resources you'd expect the police to close both sides, but I guess where not possible then a 20 (and prepared to stop) makes sense.
kalniel said:
I can see the reasoning if it's pedestrians in road - if someone is mad/drunk/drugged/ill enough to be on a motorway then they're not going to be thinking that they must only stick to one side of the road. If there's enough resources you'd expect the police to close both sides, but I guess where not possible then a 20 (and prepared to stop) makes sense.
For 7 miles? At 11pm on a Sunday night? It makes no sense and I witnessed two almost accidents because of it. There are lots of single carriageway roads round me with 40 or even 60mph speed limits and there are sometimes pedestrians on those too. Are we going to have a red flag walking in front of our cars every time there's a pedestrian within 7 miles? The world's gone mad.Once upon a time in lane far far away …ok well a few years back in the same place!
The motorway control and management was run by the Police .. the Police had local control rooms managing specific sections of motorway staffed by very experienced Police officers with years and years of intimate knowledge of those road sections and hands on experience of patrolling them and responding to incidents on them
The control rooms were backed up by a large number of police patrols staffed again by very experienced officers who would interchange between Control room/patrol ( (my force had a minimum of 16 patrols out between 6am-11pm [later at weekends] and 8 overnight )
When problems were reported patrols would always be sent and the matrix signs set as the patrol’s requested .. and them removed on request of those patrols
Without going into great depth on the subject … the system actually worked .. very well and efficiently. The motorway police units were incredibly professional and highly effective with a clear goal of keeping the motorway moving/minimising disruption
Then someone decided that it shouldn’t be highly professional Police officers with years of experience doing the job both on the road and in the control rooms … but cameras, signage and inexperienced staff in regional control centres many miles away who had zero knowledge of actually being on those road sections and other( far far fewer) inexperienced staff in vehicles assisting them. They then proceeded to implement a zero risk strategy on the road sections of any incident
And today is where we have ended up … lunatics running the asylum
Hth
The motorway control and management was run by the Police .. the Police had local control rooms managing specific sections of motorway staffed by very experienced Police officers with years and years of intimate knowledge of those road sections and hands on experience of patrolling them and responding to incidents on them
The control rooms were backed up by a large number of police patrols staffed again by very experienced officers who would interchange between Control room/patrol ( (my force had a minimum of 16 patrols out between 6am-11pm [later at weekends] and 8 overnight )
When problems were reported patrols would always be sent and the matrix signs set as the patrol’s requested .. and them removed on request of those patrols
Without going into great depth on the subject … the system actually worked .. very well and efficiently. The motorway police units were incredibly professional and highly effective with a clear goal of keeping the motorway moving/minimising disruption
Then someone decided that it shouldn’t be highly professional Police officers with years of experience doing the job both on the road and in the control rooms … but cameras, signage and inexperienced staff in regional control centres many miles away who had zero knowledge of actually being on those road sections and other( far far fewer) inexperienced staff in vehicles assisting them. They then proceeded to implement a zero risk strategy on the road sections of any incident
And today is where we have ended up … lunatics running the asylum
Hth
Edited by Earthdweller on Monday 19th December 17:28
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