Why are roadworks so badly managed?
Discussion
How do the likes of Balfour Beatty get away with it?
Miles and miles of otherwise useful carriageway coned off, 50mph speed limits to “protect” a non-existent workforce, apparently abandoned plant littering the side of the road......and months and bloody months to do a few weeks’ work. And on the one day of the year when the contractors do turn up they spend their day asleep in a JCB, sitting in a “Welfare Unit” or leaning on something checking their phone. Why?
Having endured nearly five years of the M3 ceasing to exist as a strategic route while it was supposedly “upgraded”, now it’s the turn of the M4 from Reading to Heathrow. Already there’s a speed restriction in place, already there are miles of cones and yet here we are, a month in and sweet fuxk all has actually happened apart from the white lines erased. Wow, exceptional effort boys.
Compare that to say the rail industry. Small armies descend on the line and go at it hammer and tongs until the job’s done with huge financial penalties if things are finished late.
During the M3 works the most people I ever saw on site was fifteen. One person per mile of worksite. Wow, just wow.
And then it overan by nine months while Thales pissed about with “testing and calibration” despite Higjways England insisting the project was finished.
Anyone in highway engineering able to shed light on why that industry is such an apparent shambles and wouldn’t know a hard day’s graft if it came along and booted it up the arse?
Miles and miles of otherwise useful carriageway coned off, 50mph speed limits to “protect” a non-existent workforce, apparently abandoned plant littering the side of the road......and months and bloody months to do a few weeks’ work. And on the one day of the year when the contractors do turn up they spend their day asleep in a JCB, sitting in a “Welfare Unit” or leaning on something checking their phone. Why?
Having endured nearly five years of the M3 ceasing to exist as a strategic route while it was supposedly “upgraded”, now it’s the turn of the M4 from Reading to Heathrow. Already there’s a speed restriction in place, already there are miles of cones and yet here we are, a month in and sweet fuxk all has actually happened apart from the white lines erased. Wow, exceptional effort boys.
Compare that to say the rail industry. Small armies descend on the line and go at it hammer and tongs until the job’s done with huge financial penalties if things are finished late.
During the M3 works the most people I ever saw on site was fifteen. One person per mile of worksite. Wow, just wow.
And then it overan by nine months while Thales pissed about with “testing and calibration” despite Higjways England insisting the project was finished.
Anyone in highway engineering able to shed light on why that industry is such an apparent shambles and wouldn’t know a hard day’s graft if it came along and booted it up the arse?
I'm not sure why instead of 15miles of works they dont do it in 2 mile blocks.
Having 50mph as a default sens wrong simply as lanes are a bit narrow. I've seen 60mph.on m1 recently which seemed better.
Economic impact of tens of thousands a day being delayed by 10mins,a weeks, a year etc must be huge.
Having 50mph as a default sens wrong simply as lanes are a bit narrow. I've seen 60mph.on m1 recently which seemed better.
Economic impact of tens of thousands a day being delayed by 10mins,a weeks, a year etc must be huge.
I think the difference with the railway is that its relatively simple to change the path of a road temporarily compared to a train track.
I expect it is more economic to set up long stretches at a time. If so you should direct your fury/complaints at whoever is paying the bill, as the contracts will be awarded to whoever is cheapest.
I use the M4 regularly between junction 9 and 12 so feel your pain.
I expect it is more economic to set up long stretches at a time. If so you should direct your fury/complaints at whoever is paying the bill, as the contracts will be awarded to whoever is cheapest.
I use the M4 regularly between junction 9 and 12 so feel your pain.
Taita said:
Economic impact of tens of thousands a day being delayed by 10mins,a weeks, a year etc must be huge.
Consider the human cost.For five years of the M3 Arse-Elbow Festival my commute doubled to approximately two hours. That’s roughly 10% of my working life f
ked up.And for what? To turn a congested three lane motorway in to a congested four lane death trap with no hard shoulder.
Worth every second of rattling along the A30.
Best bit was when the M3 was closed and then the A30 also shut at Sunningdale while they messed around with the level crossing.
Genius bit of planning that was. On that occasion I went full Victor Meldrew and actually phoned the Highways England (Not Really Any) Help line.
The lack of any accountability was breathtaking. Any roadworks or closures on the M3 diversion route weren’t the responsibility of the M3 project. They weren’t even made aware of any associated works.
As long as all the traffic was shovelled off the strategic route, that was fine.
Whether or not the alternative route was viable simple wasn’t seen as an issue.
Truckosaurus said:
Zarco said:
...as the contracts will be awarded to whoever is cheapest...
I suspect this will be the answer. Perhaps they should instead go with whoever has the best plan to do the work with the least disruption.A few years ago I was heading late at night down the A11 from Norfolk to go home (south London) and got to the junction for the M11 ., which was closed. There was a detour which I followed, down some dark B roads (heading north!) for several miles towards the next junction ... which was also closed! I emailed the council the next day and their reply was that next junction was not under their jurisdiction. My next query was asking if they actually spoke to each other on these occasions.
On the other hand, my BIL was in Beijing for work and left the small hotel with a map in his pocket to find his way back. Late afternoon he returned thinking he had gone wrong somewhere but then realised it was because of the new pedestrian crossing complete with lights that wasn't there in he morning.
On the other hand, my BIL was in Beijing for work and left the small hotel with a map in his pocket to find his way back. Late afternoon he returned thinking he had gone wrong somewhere but then realised it was because of the new pedestrian crossing complete with lights that wasn't there in he morning.
alorotom said:
And yet in Dubai as an example they decided they needed a new junction on one of their busy mways. They did the whole works over one weekend, doing it in 2halves ... Would have taken at least 12mths here.
Unlike them, we don't have an unlimited supply of Indian slaves who can be whipped to the point of death.Bottle line is that it’s because no one gives a st, be it the councils/government or the contractors that get the job. The contractors do a st job knowing “more work for us” in the future. The councils/gov can only see as far as the end of their noses getting the job done cheaply.
We had a road near us resurfaced earlier this year. They did a st job and left all the iron work sunk down the depth of the new road surface, and a massive groove in the centre where the machine wasn’t quite wide enough to do it in 2 passes. They are only just getting around to doing the ironworks now and they are averaging one a week, with appropriate part time signals.
I guarantee the whole road will be fked again in 2 years time.
t, be it the councils/government or the contractors that get the job. The contractors do a st job knowing “more work for us” in the future. The councils/gov can only see as far as the end of their noses getting the job done cheaply. We had a road near us resurfaced earlier this year. They did a s
t job and left all the iron work sunk down the depth of the new road surface, and a massive groove in the centre where the machine wasn’t quite wide enough to do it in 2 passes. They are only just getting around to doing the ironworks now and they are averaging one a week, with appropriate part time signals. I guarantee the whole road will be f
ked again in 2 years time. Many years ago living in Belgium they were resurfacing a local motorway, working entirely at night - the way they did it was to close a couple of lanes one night to grind off the requisite layer but then reopen it during the day to be used as normal (with warnings about the ramps at the ends of a section) before closing again the next night to resurface. Daytime disruption was negligible.
Zarco said:
Devils advocate: How do you feel about more tax money to pay for that?
Fine by me at least.Just closing routes and/or throwing up works for unreasonable periods is a rant for the annoying things thread (It's probably been done several times).
So, I'm all for the just get the works done both quickly and properly philosophy (I'm sure I've seen cases of works revisited because of botching).
I suspect in many cases disruption is encouraged, dismissing that fact that they're also disrupting their beloved public transport.
OP - Its a simple case of the way the UK has gone with regards to people/companies/legal entities being given a reason to claim compensation for when anything goes wrong.
The UK (in terms of people and organisations) 'imported' the "claim culture" from America a few decades ago and as such we are all paying the price for it.
Companies have legal teams setting their operational rules and UK procedures have elevated Health and Safety regulations to such an extent that the intent is to close down all possible routes by which an individual or other organisation can make claims for when things go wrong.
So we are left with a system that becomes hugely expensive to do anything, whilst restricting individual/company freedoms via regulations/law in order to prevent the "claim culture" from taking full control over everyone's lives.
In terms of construction companies and roadworks, they will leave cones in place because the risk assessment would likely state it is too much risk (and cost) to place personnel in the dangerous road environment to remove cones, only for them to have to go back sooner or later to re-install the cones again when a certain works is required on site.
If there are temporary speed limits this will also come in to play, because these temporary limits require a lot of paperwork and time scale to be authorised and effected, which means removing them and re-instating them would be a hugely costly affair. The problem being that a temporary limit requires justification, and the placement of cones in the road to reduce the available lanes with the excuse of workforce and operations supposedly in the closed lanes is a valid excuse for a temporary limit to be authorised.
So it just becomes a consequence of extremely overreaching health and safety regulations and the extremely high cost that comes with that versus the constant threat of the claim culture that everyone is trigger happy to jump on to when they think they see a route to gaining some additional wealth from an accident.
(thats my rather contrived view point anyway
)
The UK (in terms of people and organisations) 'imported' the "claim culture" from America a few decades ago and as such we are all paying the price for it.
Companies have legal teams setting their operational rules and UK procedures have elevated Health and Safety regulations to such an extent that the intent is to close down all possible routes by which an individual or other organisation can make claims for when things go wrong.
So we are left with a system that becomes hugely expensive to do anything, whilst restricting individual/company freedoms via regulations/law in order to prevent the "claim culture" from taking full control over everyone's lives.
In terms of construction companies and roadworks, they will leave cones in place because the risk assessment would likely state it is too much risk (and cost) to place personnel in the dangerous road environment to remove cones, only for them to have to go back sooner or later to re-install the cones again when a certain works is required on site.
If there are temporary speed limits this will also come in to play, because these temporary limits require a lot of paperwork and time scale to be authorised and effected, which means removing them and re-instating them would be a hugely costly affair. The problem being that a temporary limit requires justification, and the placement of cones in the road to reduce the available lanes with the excuse of workforce and operations supposedly in the closed lanes is a valid excuse for a temporary limit to be authorised.
So it just becomes a consequence of extremely overreaching health and safety regulations and the extremely high cost that comes with that versus the constant threat of the claim culture that everyone is trigger happy to jump on to when they think they see a route to gaining some additional wealth from an accident.
(thats my rather contrived view point anyway
)Really does make me wonder why in other countries, such as China, they can build a 30 story sky scraper in a few weeks but in the UK they can't fix 2 miles of road in the same time scales.
Near to me there was a bridge that was being reworked that goes over the road.
No joke, the bridge is not any wider than two normal lanes of traffic, it took them 8 weeks to do whatever it was they were doing.
Honestly, it looks no different.
Now I know there may be things which you can't see that have been done, but as I drove past it daily, I never saw more than 2 Citroen Berlingo type vans.........and maybe 3 or 4 guys tops. Not only that the way the road works were set out, I can only assume that 100yards of cones were purely for parking!!
The road works caused chaos as it was on the main link between two large towns.
Regarding the M4, fk me, I have to drive that road regularly as well (well, regularly-ish) , for the first time in 2 months I came into the office today. None of the M4 looks any different to how it did 2 months ago . With the exception of at J10 they have put in a second lane (but of course it's not open).
Do contractors extend the job out on purpose? Government could save millions a year by employing a couple of guys across the country to ensure that progress is being made and jobs are not paid for unless completed within the time line. Some of these construction companies who coast along will soon have to pick up the slack........
Near to me there was a bridge that was being reworked that goes over the road.
No joke, the bridge is not any wider than two normal lanes of traffic, it took them 8 weeks to do whatever it was they were doing.
Honestly, it looks no different.
Now I know there may be things which you can't see that have been done, but as I drove past it daily, I never saw more than 2 Citroen Berlingo type vans.........and maybe 3 or 4 guys tops. Not only that the way the road works were set out, I can only assume that 100yards of cones were purely for parking!!
The road works caused chaos as it was on the main link between two large towns.
Regarding the M4, f
k me, I have to drive that road regularly as well (well, regularly-ish) , for the first time in 2 months I came into the office today. None of the M4 looks any different to how it did 2 months ago . With the exception of at J10 they have put in a second lane (but of course it's not open). Do contractors extend the job out on purpose? Government could save millions a year by employing a couple of guys across the country to ensure that progress is being made and jobs are not paid for unless completed within the time line. Some of these construction companies who coast along will soon have to pick up the slack........
xjay1337 said:
Really does make me wonder why in other countries, such as China, they can build a 30 story sky scraper in a few weeks but in the UK they can't fix 2 miles of road in the same time scales.
.
See my reply above .
The cost of health and safety compliance, not only in terms of procedures but also in training every individual up to a standard of knowledge along with companies having to also demonstrate compliance is huge.
Now of course, health and safety is a hugely important thing - nobody goes to work expecting to be harmed, but the cost associated with it all and the tight-rope that is walked in terms of opening oneself to the claim culture has limited the UK in what it can do, and as such our competitiveness to make/build things compared to places where health and safety regulations are much weaker is very obvious to the extreme.
Of course the numbers of workforce that are injured/killed in places like China is also obvious.
But on balance I think the UK needs to streamline and very much reduce the cost of regulation compliance, and even dare I say limit what can be claimed against.
There is a term in civil engineering called "as low as reasonably practicable" , which applies to designs in terms of risk. Its fairly open ended (or close ended depending on which angle you want to look at it), but its in the courts whereby the opposing sides would argue the "reasonable" aspect of an incident and its claim.
If the UK is to be able to build things again without the huge cost associated with it then the balance of how a judge views the term "reasonable" may have to swing back somewhat in favour of there being an acceptance of more risk and its consequences. ? (just a thought)
Oh and let’s not forget the classic “works being suspended for two weeks over the Christmas holiday period to alleviate congestion” which actually means “We’re the workforce and there’s no way on Earth we’re not having a fortnight off at Christmas. Think of the children.
Anyway, wotcha gonna do? Move all those cones yourself? Drive the plant out of the way? Good luck with that. We’ve got all the keys”
It’s not difficult to imagine the planning meeting with a meek local government pencilneck one side of the desk “in charge” of the project and Big Dave in his greasy high vis and battered hard hat that also doubles as a football, arms folded, pretending not to smirk as he lays out the terms on which his boys will do the job.....
“Yep, two week shut down at Christmas. Industry standard innit?
And Easter. Oh and obviously Ramadan, Diwali, Eid and the Summer Solstice.
And we demand a day per week for safety training. And we don’t do nights. Or weekends. Or night at weekends.
Or more than four hours a day to include travelling time from Nottingham to Portsmouth.
And free burgers
And four weeks annual leave”
Anyway, wotcha gonna do? Move all those cones yourself? Drive the plant out of the way? Good luck with that. We’ve got all the keys”
It’s not difficult to imagine the planning meeting with a meek local government pencilneck one side of the desk “in charge” of the project and Big Dave in his greasy high vis and battered hard hat that also doubles as a football, arms folded, pretending not to smirk as he lays out the terms on which his boys will do the job.....
“Yep, two week shut down at Christmas. Industry standard innit?
And Easter. Oh and obviously Ramadan, Diwali, Eid and the Summer Solstice.
And we demand a day per week for safety training. And we don’t do nights. Or weekends. Or night at weekends.
Or more than four hours a day to include travelling time from Nottingham to Portsmouth.
And free burgers
And four weeks annual leave”
V10leptoquark said:
Lots of valid stuff about Safety, training and compliance
And I say, bks.The rail, aviation and maritime transport industries are even more heavily regulated.
I’ve worked in the first two and loafing around doing bugger all, dragging jobs out and generally making a pigs ear of it in the end anyway simply isn’t tolerated.
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