Yellow Box Junction - Putney High Street
Discussion
Hello,
I'm new here. I could see a few posts on this subject in other forums, but as I'm new I can't post anything yet. I've just received a PCN from Wandsworth for stopping in a yellow box junction. I've put in an appeal on the grounds of common sense, but doubt it will get far as this is clearly just a money spinner and absolutely nothing to do with keeping traffic flowing.
I am curious about the rules about painting lines from corner to corner and whether there is actually grounds for appeal on the basis that it looks like the junction is painted according to how the road used to be laid out. Please see attached picture. The kerb probably used to stop in line with the parked cars, but due to a bit of pedestrianisation the pavement has been extended, but the box junction has not been repainted to the corner. This (and a car deciding not to move forwards despite there being space in front to do so) resulted in the rear of my car being a metre or so inside the junction. Bang to rights (and the video shows it too - what the video also shows when it pans out is the bloody big space in front of the car in front of me).
Any suggestions - or should I just pay the £65 and put it down to experience. It's galling as the video also shows I have blocked absolutely no one (there was no one trying to enter the road, which is one way, and even if there was I was still not blocking them unless they intended driving on the pavement!).
Thanks!!
Nick
I'm new here. I could see a few posts on this subject in other forums, but as I'm new I can't post anything yet. I've just received a PCN from Wandsworth for stopping in a yellow box junction. I've put in an appeal on the grounds of common sense, but doubt it will get far as this is clearly just a money spinner and absolutely nothing to do with keeping traffic flowing.
I am curious about the rules about painting lines from corner to corner and whether there is actually grounds for appeal on the basis that it looks like the junction is painted according to how the road used to be laid out. Please see attached picture. The kerb probably used to stop in line with the parked cars, but due to a bit of pedestrianisation the pavement has been extended, but the box junction has not been repainted to the corner. This (and a car deciding not to move forwards despite there being space in front to do so) resulted in the rear of my car being a metre or so inside the junction. Bang to rights (and the video shows it too - what the video also shows when it pans out is the bloody big space in front of the car in front of me).
Any suggestions - or should I just pay the £65 and put it down to experience. It's galling as the video also shows I have blocked absolutely no one (there was no one trying to enter the road, which is one way, and even if there was I was still not blocking them unless they intended driving on the pavement!).
Thanks!!
Nick
There's 2 things here
1 what offence is being prosecuted here; the highway code makes clear that the offence in contravention of the traffic acts is entering the box when the exit isn't clear, not stopping in the box itself;
2 I believe a precedent has been set in London for these FPNs not being enforceable (at least I mean one was cancelled) when the driver could reasonably expect the exit to be clear but the vehicle in front failed to move or there was an unexpected lane changer that 'stole' the exit space.
I'm on holiday and on mobile so you're better off searching yourself but may be worth contesting.
1 what offence is being prosecuted here; the highway code makes clear that the offence in contravention of the traffic acts is entering the box when the exit isn't clear, not stopping in the box itself;
2 I believe a precedent has been set in London for these FPNs not being enforceable (at least I mean one was cancelled) when the driver could reasonably expect the exit to be clear but the vehicle in front failed to move or there was an unexpected lane changer that 'stole' the exit space.
I'm on holiday and on mobile so you're better off searching yourself but may be worth contesting.
This may be clutching at straws, and you may wish to check the wording; however, I believe the wording is something like ‘causing a vehicle to stop in a yellow box’. It does not specifically state who is causing the vehicle to stop, it may be argued that, by not moving forward, the other vehicle is causing your vehicle to stop in the yellow box.
I've been having an interesting exchange with someone from the 'parking operations' team responsible for this area. I'm not entirely sure why my question regarding box junctions was passed on to someone responsible for 'parking', but there we go. It occurred to me that the junction is incorrectly marked according to the rules about them being painted from corner to corner. I have been told that particular rule was dropped in the 2016 update of the rules. I have asked what guidance there is for when and where it is appropriate to paint a box junction in the first place - so far resounding silence. I have written to the Department for Transport to see if they can enlighten me. I'm particularly interested in what should happen if the road layout / circumstances change. I'm pretty convinced that the junction concerned has changed over the years. The pavement has been extended. No right turns have been instituted and one way roads put in place. Result is that the box junction is far bigger than it needs to be.
I have now been told this is to prevent congestion due to people parking too close to the junction and I quote:
"I’ve explained previously that multi axle lorries and buses have blocked crossing traffic even if parked on the cusp of the existing box markings, if the bay is reduced I’m concerned this type of obstruction would happen more frequently."
It feels like this is just a poor excuse to justify the cash cow this junction has become. I believe the rules around parking are being conflated with the correct use of box junctions to keep junctions clear and traffic moving.
Any thoughts?
I have now been told this is to prevent congestion due to people parking too close to the junction and I quote:
"I’ve explained previously that multi axle lorries and buses have blocked crossing traffic even if parked on the cusp of the existing box markings, if the bay is reduced I’m concerned this type of obstruction would happen more frequently."
It feels like this is just a poor excuse to justify the cash cow this junction has become. I believe the rules around parking are being conflated with the correct use of box junctions to keep junctions clear and traffic moving.
Any thoughts?
DocJock said:
You entered a yellow box before your exit was clear. I don't know what else you want to hear?
I want to hear what the actual rules are on when you can paint a box junction on the road. I do not believe this box junction is there just to stop congestion - it is there to collect additional revenues. If I can determine what the real rules are I can bring this to the attention of the authorities / press and Wandsworth may very well have to return millions of pounds that it has received under false pretences.The reality is they should fine people who prevent the free flow of traffic and as they have someone manning the camera to collect the fines they could just implement fines when somebody really prevents the free flow of traffic and otherwise give the benefit of the doubt. As the rules are militantly enforced with no regard to common sense I have no option other than to play them at their own technocratic game.
Otherwise what is to prevent councils painting yellow junctions wherever the fancy in order to generate more cash. Government, both local and national, needs to be accountable. In my opinion the junction should have been repainted.
As I explained in the original post I anticipated the space being clear but the person in front decided to stop leaving a huge gap (which is clearly shown on the video evidence as the operator zooms out - also proving that there is someone watching this full time and in a position to 'police' the junction rather than just milking it for fines). I'm pretty sure this won't be taken into account. Anyone who drives in London will know that if you sit there being mild mannered someone will steal your space on the road. Therefore it was not unreasonable to anticipate the junction being clear. Two lanes going one at this point with two people competing for the same space.
DocJock said:
You entered a yellow box before your exit was clear. I don't know what else you want to hear?
I was also recently caught by this junction and Googles to find some more info about it and found this thread.It's not as simple as you make out. The junction is the most lucrative for fines in the entire borough!
https://www.mylondon.news/news/south-london-news/t...
The sneaky part of it is that there is a pedestrian crossing right against one edge of the yellow box. So you can be driving forwards into the box quite legally, with a clear road beyond the junction, and then the pedestrian crossing lights might change WHILST you are inside the box, forcing you to stop and there is no buffer zone.
So you basically have a choice between running a red light or stopping inside the box, and it is purely down to luck and timing of when the pedestrian crossing lights change.
It is *extremely* sneaky.
stevelondon88 said:
I was also recently caught by this junction and Googles to find some more info about it and found this thread.
It's not as simple as you make out. The junction is the most lucrative for fines in the entire borough!
https://www.mylondon.news/news/south-london-news/t...
The sneaky part of it is that there is a pedestrian crossing right against one edge of the yellow box. So you can be driving forwards into the box quite legally, with a clear road beyond the junction, and then the pedestrian crossing lights might change WHILST you are inside the box, forcing you to stop and there is no buffer zone.
So you basically have a choice between running a red light or stopping inside the box, and it is purely down to luck and timing of when the pedestrian crossing lights change.
It is *extremely* sneaky.
It's not sneaky at all, if you understand the highway code.It's not as simple as you make out. The junction is the most lucrative for fines in the entire borough!
https://www.mylondon.news/news/south-london-news/t...
The sneaky part of it is that there is a pedestrian crossing right against one edge of the yellow box. So you can be driving forwards into the box quite legally, with a clear road beyond the junction, and then the pedestrian crossing lights might change WHILST you are inside the box, forcing you to stop and there is no buffer zone.
So you basically have a choice between running a red light or stopping inside the box, and it is purely down to luck and timing of when the pedestrian crossing lights change.
It is *extremely* sneaky.
This is a street view image of the junction in question, which is from July 2019, so I don't know if the junction has changed since then.
However, based on this it is clear that the stop line for the traffic lights (including the pedestrian crossing) is before the yellow box.
Therefore if you legitimately cross the stop line, and the lights change whilst you are crossing the junction, those lights don't apply to you any more, and there is no obligation to have to stop.
Furthermore, the presence of the yellow box itself means that you are obliged to keep going to clear the yellow box completely.
Jaywalking pedestrians are a hazard on any road, and you have to deal with them as you would anywhere else. This particular junction is not special in that regard.
Obviously, if you have to stop in the yellow box because of a rouge pedestrian, then that would be an appropriate defence should a yellow box FPN be issued.
The point is that there is no sneaky dilemma between stopping in the yellow box or running a red light.
Obviously, if you have to stop in the yellow box because of a rouge pedestrian, then that would be an appropriate defence should a yellow box FPN be issued.
The point is that there is no sneaky dilemma between stopping in the yellow box or running a red light.
You can say what you want about the Highway Code - I know the rules as I'm sure do the vast majority of people. Why does this junction catch out such a disproportionately high number? It is badly laid out and the local authority will not change that or give the benefit of the doubt because it makes them so much money. Nothing to do with road safety, nothing to do with easing congestion. This particular junction has changed significantly over the years but the yellow box junction remains stubbornly in place to generate revenue. The only possible congestion would be from someone heading west on a one way street that used to be two way when the box junction was painted many, many years ago. I suspect that traffic could also turn left or right off Putney Hight Street back then and there was almost certainly no awkwardly placed pedestrian crossing or green cycle safety boxes.
I get that you are angry with this particular yellow box, and since you haven't said otherwise, I presume that you were unable to successfully challenge the FPN.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this yellow box. The point of my post was to clarify steve's claim that the yellow box was "extremely sneaky" particularly because of the presence of the pedestrian crossing.
As mentioned earlier, the proximity of the crossing and yellow box is not really relevant, and that there is no dilemma between running a red light or stopping inside the box.
This yellow box might be considered sneaky for the reasons that you've given, but it is not sneaky for the reasons that steve has given.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this yellow box. The point of my post was to clarify steve's claim that the yellow box was "extremely sneaky" particularly because of the presence of the pedestrian crossing.
As mentioned earlier, the proximity of the crossing and yellow box is not really relevant, and that there is no dilemma between running a red light or stopping inside the box.
This yellow box might be considered sneaky for the reasons that you've given, but it is not sneaky for the reasons that steve has given.
As I noted above I did actually get out of it - I played the bureaucrats at their own game and because they took too long to respond they had to concede they were out of time and reverse the PCN. I was caught going in the other direction (heading north as per my original post). My objection was to the fact that the box junction went well beyond the corner of the pavement which had all been redone making the pavement much bigger than it used to be (as the road to the left / west was made one way / single lane with added on street parking provision - so unless you were going to drive over the pavement and through a bunch of parked cars, my car was never in the way and could not conceivably have created an obstruction).
Without arguing the specifics, unless you work for the council or are a very pedantic member of the police force, there is no doubt that any reasonable person would agree that the junction itself has changed out of all recognition and the yellow box junction should be revised or eliminated altogether. The only reason nothing has been done is to milk the public for easy fines. The box junction itself isn't sneaky - perhaps one could argue that the placement of the pedestrian crossing and additional green cycle box without revisiting the precise layout and need for a yellow box junction at all is the sneaky part - sneaky by omission if you like.
Without arguing the specifics, unless you work for the council or are a very pedantic member of the police force, there is no doubt that any reasonable person would agree that the junction itself has changed out of all recognition and the yellow box junction should be revised or eliminated altogether. The only reason nothing has been done is to milk the public for easy fines. The box junction itself isn't sneaky - perhaps one could argue that the placement of the pedestrian crossing and additional green cycle box without revisiting the precise layout and need for a yellow box junction at all is the sneaky part - sneaky by omission if you like.
Gassing Station | Roads | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff