Morbid Question. Jim Clark's Lotus 48

[Life Saab Itch]

I'm not normally one for gawping at photos of fatal accidents and the like, but this question piqued my curiosity.

What happened to the wreck of Jim Clark's Lotus 48?

I have read that it was cut up which seems to be standard procedure in most fatal accidents, but recently I read that the car may be buried at Hethel.

Does anyone know?

[Crafty_]

I have seen a picture of it somewhere. There was pretty much nothing left, the whole front end was missing, I couldn't see rear wheels/gearbox/engine either. I'd guess quite a few bits of it are still scattered in the trees at Hockenheim.

[Life Saab Itch]

Crafty_ said:

I have seen a picture of it somewhere. There was pretty much nothing left, the whole front end was missing, I couldn't see rear wheels/gearbox/engine either. I'd guess quite a few bits of it are still scattered in the trees at Hockenheim.

The front wheels were torn off on impact with the trees, the rest of the "front end" is a radiator on a spindley frame and a fiberglass nose. The car split in half at the engine. The engine/gearbox/rear suspension stood up to the shunt reasonably well, there are photos that show this. The tub itself took a bit of a beating but was all there. Bear in mind that Clarks injuries were head and neck related, but his skin wasn't broken, the tub seemingly did it's job, it was just bad luck that the impact happened with the tree where it did.

The GLTL mechanics and Graham Hill took the remains of the car away the same afternoon. There is video footage of this happening, look it up on youtube.

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel. The car then sat under a tarpaulin for a few weeks until a well respected Aircraft crash investigator [Peter Jowett]viewed it at Colin Chapman's request.

After that I have no more information in any of my books. It was only a passing comment on another internet forum which made me ask this question.

[RobM77]

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

[HundredthIdiot]

[chevronb37]

RobM77 said:

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

I somehow doubt they would've got it out of Italy so easily. In fact wasn't Jimmy implicated under Italian law for von Trips' death in 1961?

[Life Saab Itch]

RobM77 said:

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

If I'm remembering this correctly, Colin Chapman wasn't at the race meeting, but word got back to the Mechanics somehow to get the car packed up in the truck and get the hell out of there. I imagine that he didn't want the car impounded by the German authorities. Chapman had had problems after the Monza accident in 1961 with cars being impounded and arrest warrants issued. He would have the same problems with Rindt's accident in 1970 and even went as far as renaming Gold Leaf Team Lotus as World Wide Racing for the Italian GP in 1971.

The Border Control police were keen to have a look at a racing car. They had no idea that Jimmy's wreck was on board, but they made it pretty clear that they were going to see a racing car before they let the truck move on.

That is as much as I know off the top of my head.

[plg]

RobM77 said:

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

Don't forget border control was far stricter pre-92, and even now people might ask questions if you had a wrecked F1 car on a low loader - wanting to validate that it hadn't been stolen, etc.

[Life Saab Itch]

chevronb37 said:

RobM77 said:

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

I somehow doubt they would've got it out of Italy so easily. In fact wasn't Jimmy implicated under Italian law for von Trips' death in 1961?

Quite. I'm not sure what happened about Clark's car from that race. I know that the Authorities seized Rindt's Lotus 72 chassis and kept it in a government scrap yard for 15 years.

Apparently, Rindt's chassis has been restored and the damage repaired, but the car has not been reassembled. Rumour has it that it is sat on a shelf in the workshop of a well known race car restorer/historic car racer.

[Life Saab Itch]

HundredthIdiot said:

Hmmm. It's worse than I remember. I had forgotten that the back end was totally destroyed.

I hate looking at that picture.

[chevronb37]

Life Saab Itch said:

chevronb37 said:

RobM77 said:

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

I somehow doubt they would've got it out of Italy so easily. In fact wasn't Jimmy implicated under Italian law for von Trips' death in 1961?

Quite. I'm not sure what happened about Clark's car from that race. I know that the Authorities seized Rindt's Lotus 72 chassis and kept it in a government scrap yard for 15 years.

Apparently, Rindt's chassis has been restored and the damage repaired, but the car has not been reassembled. Rumour has it that it is sat on a shelf in the workshop of a well known race car restorer/historic car racer.

Interesting. Were you at the Racing Lotus Film Festival last year? I doubt from the impression given by John Miles and the others there that anyone would be upset if the car had been destroyed. I think it's slightly macabre thinking of a car involved in a fatality being used again - perhaps the legend should be allowed to die. Just a personal feeling. I suspect the Italian authorities still have the Senna FW16, though I may be wrong.

Speaking of burials, I was recently fascinated, though saddened, to read of what became of Capt. George Eyston's mighty Thunderbolt. What a bizarre end for such a momental machine.

[Life Saab Itch]

plg said:

RobM77 said:

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

Don't forget border control was far stricter pre-92, and even now people might ask questions if you had a wrecked F1 car on a low loader - wanting to validate that it hadn't been stolen, etc.

Yes and no. The difficult bit was getting the "carnet" for the chassis. The carnet was basically the paperwork to say that that particular car (chassis) was allowed to travel. This is why a wreck could often be 'brought back to life' by putting the chassis plate on a spare/new tub.

The carnet was quite an expensive/laborious document to obtain, this is why Colin Chapman sold Pete Lovely Lotus 49 R11 as a new car, rather than use either of the two chassis numbers that it had previously worn (it started out as 49 R2, Jimmy's Zandvoort '67 winning car). Colin kept those chassis plates and carnets for future use.

[Life Saab Itch]

chevronb37 said:

Life Saab Itch said:

chevronb37 said:

RobM77 said:

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

I somehow doubt they would've got it out of Italy so easily. In fact wasn't Jimmy implicated under Italian law for von Trips' death in 1961?

Quite. I'm not sure what happened about Clark's car from that race. I know that the Authorities seized Rindt's Lotus 72 chassis and kept it in a government scrap yard for 15 years.

Apparently, Rindt's chassis has been restored and the damage repaired, but the car has not been reassembled. Rumour has it that it is sat on a shelf in the workshop of a well known race car restorer/historic car racer.

Interesting. Were you at the Racing Lotus Film Festival last year? I doubt from the impression given by John Miles and the others there that anyone would be upset if the car had been destroyed. I think it's slightly macabre thinking of a car involved in a fatality being used again - perhaps the legend should be allowed to die. Just a personal feeling. I suspect the Italian authorities still have the Senna FW16, though I may be wrong.

Speaking of burials, I was recently fascinated, though saddened, to read of what became of Capt. George Eyston's mighty Thunderbolt. What a bizarre end for such a momental machine.

Senna's FW16 was returned to Williams F1 after the courtcase had finally finished (maybe about 2004), the everything apart from the engine was destroyed. The engine was returned to Renault. It is unknown what became of it.

I wasn't at the Lotus festival, but I get the feeling that I missed out on a great event.

I will read up on Thunderbolt.

I am very much in two minds about fatal wrecks. When I see the care, skill and (dare I say it) love that has gone into "conserveering" Bluebird K7 I think that it may be worthwhile.

I have a story and some background information regarding Henry Surtees' F2 chassis, but I don't think it is for here. Word of mouth maybe...

[chevronb37]

Life Saab Itch said:

chevronb37 said:

Life Saab Itch said:

chevronb37 said:

RobM77 said:

Thanks for the story LSI. Out of interest, why would border control pose a problem? Was it perhaps illegal to remove the wreck of a car involved in such an accident before the police had looked at it?

Life Saab Itch said:

Apparently, the team got stopped at a border control by the police who insisted on having a look at the race cars in the back of the truck. The team managed to get through the control and took the car back to Hethel.

I somehow doubt they would've got it out of Italy so easily. In fact wasn't Jimmy implicated under Italian law for von Trips' death in 1961?

Quite. I'm not sure what happened about Clark's car from that race. I know that the Authorities seized Rindt's Lotus 72 chassis and kept it in a government scrap yard for 15 years.

Apparently, Rindt's chassis has been restored and the damage repaired, but the car has not been reassembled. Rumour has it that it is sat on a shelf in the workshop of a well known race car restorer/historic car racer.

Interesting. Were you at the Racing Lotus Film Festival last year? I doubt from the impression given by John Miles and the others there that anyone would be upset if the car had been destroyed. I think it's slightly macabre thinking of a car involved in a fatality being used again - perhaps the legend should be allowed to die. Just a personal feeling. I suspect the Italian authorities still have the Senna FW16, though I may be wrong.

Speaking of burials, I was recently fascinated, though saddened, to read of what became of Capt. George Eyston's mighty Thunderbolt. What a bizarre end for such a momental machine.

Senna's FW16 was returned to Williams F1 after the courtcase had finally finished (maybe about 2004), the everything apart from the engine was destroyed. The engine was returned to Renault. It is unknown what became of it.

I wasn't at the Lotus festival, but I get the feeling that I missed out on a great event.

I will read up on Thunderbolt.

I am very much in two minds about fatal wrecks. When I see the care, skill and (dare I say it) love that has gone into "conserveering" Bluebird K7 I think that it may be worthwhile.

I have a story and some background information regarding Henry Surtees' F2 chassis, but I don't think it is for here. Word of mouth maybe...

My opinion is slightly divisive concerning the Bluebird wreck. Jean Wales (Donald's late sister) was a family friend and was adamant that the boat should remain where it was. I would have prefered her wishes be respected, but perhaps history deserves to see the K7 - after all who saw it in the flesh before the accident? Not many I'd wager. My personal feeling is the wreck should've been left in Coniston Water, but that is likely unpopular. I felt slightly uneasy about the recoverer sitting on the hull acting like a hero for the cameras. That boat only knew one hero to my eyes and he passed 4th Jan 1967.

Thunderbolt's is a rather tragic story to be honest, but one of the Rolls Royce R engines is in the aviation halls at the Science Museum in London. I took a photo last month so will post later. I am intending on writing a short piece about Britain's proud LSR history and the whereabouts of the cars. We are very fortunate to have so many of these marvellous machines still extant and on UK soil.

[woof]

I had a feeling that is was destroyed - but can't be sure about it. Might be confusing it with another incident.

[Life Saab Itch]

chevronb37 said:

My opinion is slightly divisive concerning the Bluebird wreck. Jean Wales (Donald's late sister) was a family friend and was adamant that the boat should remain where it was. I would have prefered her wishes be respected, but perhaps history deserves to see the K7 - after all who saw it in the flesh before the accident? Not many I'd wager. My personal feeling is the wreck should've been left in Coniston Water, but that is likely unpopular. I felt slightly uneasy about the recoverer sitting on the hull acting like a hero for the cameras. That boat only knew one hero to my eyes and he passed 4th Jan 1967.

I can't disagree with much of this. The only thing I can add is 'what's done is done'. Ken Norris (K7's co-designer) viewed the restoration recently and said "it wouldn't be much of a tribute to the man left as a crumpled mess."
If you look at the Bluebird website, the way they are going about the restoration is superb.

chevronb37 said:

Thunderbolt's is a rather tragic story to be honest, but one of the Rolls Royce R engines is in the aviation halls at the Science Museum in London. I took a photo last month so will post later.

You know about R19? (I think I have the number correct)

chevronb37 said:

I am intending on writing a short piece about Britain's proud LSR history and the whereabouts of the cars. We are very fortunate to have so many of these marvellous machines still extant and on UK soil.

I'll look forward to reading it.

[Life Saab Itch]

woof said:

I had a feeling that is was destroyed - but can't be sure about it. Might be confusing it with another incident.

I had always assumed this, but as I've said, it was just one post on another forum that hinted that it might be buried somewhere at Hethel.

[chevronb37]

Life Saab Itch said:

chevronb37 said:

My opinion is slightly divisive concerning the Bluebird wreck. Jean Wales (Donald's late sister) was a family friend and was adamant that the boat should remain where it was. I would have prefered her wishes be respected, but perhaps history deserves to see the K7 - after all who saw it in the flesh before the accident? Not many I'd wager. My personal feeling is the wreck should've been left in Coniston Water, but that is likely unpopular. I felt slightly uneasy about the recoverer sitting on the hull acting like a hero for the cameras. That boat only knew one hero to my eyes and he passed 4th Jan 1967.

I can't disagree with much of this. The only thing I can add is 'what's done is done'. Ken Norris (K7's co-designer) viewed the restoration recently and said "it wouldn't be much of a tribute to the man left as a crumpled mess."
If you look at the Bluebird website, the way they are going about the restoration is superb.

chevronb37 said:

Thunderbolt's is a rather tragic story to be honest, but one of the Rolls Royce R engines is in the aviation halls at the Science Museum in London. I took a photo last month so will post later.

You know about R19? (I think I have the number correct)

chevronb37 said:

I am intending on writing a short piece about Britain's proud LSR history and the whereabouts of the cars. We are very fortunate to have so many of these marvellous machines still extant and on UK soil.

I'll look forward to reading it.

Interesting to hear another point of view on the restoration of Bluebird and Ken Norris has a fair point that a tangled wreck is hardly a representative memorial to such a gentleman, but I see Coniston as fitting that purpose and the images of Bluebird keeping her alive. I suppose your view on something of such gravitas and emotivity is likely to be intuitive and unlikely to alter with reason. I got to thinking; Jean gave me a lovely black and white photo of her and Donald playing with a pedal car of the 1927 Bluebird with the outboard radiators behind the cockpit. I have asked my parents to have a look in their house for it as it isn't among my archive of "stuff". If they find it I will, of course, share it. I was only a child when I met Jean but it was so wonderful to hear first-hand about life with such a famous family. Donald and my grandfather were at Uppingham together, but only knew each other in passing. I can ramble all day about speed records and the men who set them...

The Rolls Royce R. Well, I know little except it was a Schneider Trophy engine which subsequently ended up in Thunderbolt. How it (or the Schneider Trophy itself) ended up in the Science Museum I've no idea, but it's a huge thing - weighs almost as much as my little Lotus! What it must've been like to experience Thunderbolt bludgeoning across the salt, two of these massive engines droning away, all six wheels cutting a path through the surface. Amazing stuff, really. This, I believe, is R27 and set an airspeed record, as well as winning the ST.

[Bebee]

So have you discovered it's where abouts?

I made my third visit to Duns in as many years yesterday, I've been in the Lotus but I went in my van this time as I was picking up a mower I bought on ebay just 5 miles away from the Jim Clark rooms.
It's a 5 hour drive up there from where I live in Shropshire.

I spend an hour sat on a bench next to Jim's grave, it was a beautiful day and so peaceful.

[lotus72]

'I wasn't at the Lotus festival, but I get the feeling that I missed out on a great event.'
You did. I was one of the two organisers, it was a great event.......I must dig out the video we shot and think again about issuing a DVD of it.