First F1 Car to use Carbon Fibre?

[paulrockliffe]

What was it?

Picture please?

Just curious......

[Mazda Baiter]

For what? Bodywork? Semi structural components? Suspension? Or the main tub?

The McLaren MP4/1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4/1

This is the car which was the first to utilise Carbon Fibre for the main tub structure.

[Mazda Baiter]

This is the tub.

[bobthemonkey]

The tub was produces by Hercules Aerostructures IIRC.

[Total loss]

Mazda Baiter said:

For what? Bodywork? Semi structural components? Suspension? Or the main tub?

The McLaren MP4/1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4/1

This is the car which was the first to utilise Carbon Fibre for the main tub structure.

bobthemonkey said:

The tub was produces by Hercules Aerostructures IIRC.

By coincidence I saw this car yesterday for the first time & wondered what car it was & what/who Hercules (name on rear wing )was, & now I know ,thanks.

[T89 Callan]

I vaguely remember reading that an early 80's Renault was the first F1 to use Carbon Fibre on circuit.

[Mazda Baiter]

T89 Callan said:

I vaguely remember reading that an early 80's Renault was the first F1 to use Carbon Fibre on circuit.

Body work and wings. Could be correct.

Bennetton were the first to use it for suspension. They trialled a pull rod back in the late 80s early 90s.

[Eric Mc]

I recall that the 1975 McLaren M23 used a carbon fibre attachment for the rear wing - which failed at the Spanish GP at Bracelona (Montjuich Park) sending the car into the crowd and killing a few spectators.

[freedman]

Eric Mc said:

I recall that the 1975 McLaren M23 used a carbon fibre attachment for the rear wing - which failed at the Spanish GP at Bracelona (Montjuich Park) sending the car into the crowd and killing a few spectators.

It was Rolf Stommelens Hill-Lola (or maybe thE 1st GH-1), Nothing to do with McLaren at all

And did Hill run Carbon Fibre compoments? Doubtful I think

Edited by freedman on Saturday 27th February 09:54

[Eric Mc]

freedman said:

Eric Mc said:

I recall that the 1975 McLaren M23 used a carbon fibre attachment for the rear wing - which failed at the Spanish GP at Bracelona (Montjuich Park) sending the car into the crowd and killing a few spectators.

It was Rolf Stommelens Hill-Lola (or maybe thE 1st GH-1), Nothing to do with McLaren at all

And did Hill run Carbon Fibre compoments? Doubtful I think

Edited by freedman on Saturday 27th February 09:54

Brain fade moment.

It was the Embassy Hill GH1 which featured the first use of carbon fibre in an F1 car. I got the race and year right - but the make of car wrong.

Here is a quote from well respected motor racing historian Doug Nye -

"The Gulf-JW sports car team were toying with carbon filament stiffening in ultra-thin lightweight GRP body panels while Gordon Murray was toying with flat carbon insert panels for lightly-loaded areas within Brabham monocoque chassis where weight could be saved. In parallel Andy Smallman and the Hill team tried carbon as a rear wing mount, an application for which the material was not suitable. It fractured and Rolf Stommelen's Formula 1 Hill careered into - and over - the barrier at Montjuich Park during the 1975 Spanish GP - with fatal consequences amongst onlookers. q.v".

[T89 Callan]

Mazda Baiter said:

T89 Callan said:

I vaguely remember reading that an early 80's Renault was the first F1 to use Carbon Fibre on circuit.

Body work and wings. Could be correct.

Bennetton were the first to use it for suspension. They trialled a pull rod back in the late 80s early 90s.

Yeah I think it was the bodywork and non-structural stuff.

I'm sure the book was "The Chequered Flag - 100 years of Motor Racing" in the chapter 'Video Cameras and Plastic Roller Skates' covering the early 80's.

[groomi]

Eric Mc said:

freedman said:

Eric Mc said:

I recall that the 1975 McLaren M23 used a carbon fibre attachment for the rear wing - which failed at the Spanish GP at Bracelona (Montjuich Park) sending the car into the crowd and killing a few spectators.

It was Rolf Stommelens Hill-Lola (or maybe thE 1st GH-1), Nothing to do with McLaren at all

And did Hill run Carbon Fibre compoments? Doubtful I think

Edited by freedman on Saturday 27th February 09:54

Brain fade moment.

It was the Embassy Hill GH1 which featured the first use of carbon fibre in an F1 car. I got the race and year right - but the make of car wrong.

Here is a quote from well respected motor racing historian Doug Nye -

"The Gulf-JW sports car team were toying with carbon filament stiffening in ultra-thin lightweight GRP body panels while Gordon Murray was toying with flat carbon insert panels for lightly-loaded areas within Brabham monocoque chassis where weight could be saved. In parallel Andy Smallman and the Hill team tried carbon as a rear wing mount, an application for which the material was not suitable. It fractured and Rolf Stommelen's Formula 1 Hill careered into - and over - the barrier at Montjuich Park during the 1975 Spanish GP - with fatal consequences amongst onlookers. q.v".

That must be a very difficult situation to deal with as the designer of that car/component. You're trying to make a car go as fast as possible, but instead your incorrect calculations end up causing loss of life - and not even to the people paid to take that risk.

[Mazda Baiter]

groomi said:

Eric Mc said:

freedman said:

Eric Mc said:

I recall that the 1975 McLaren M23 used a carbon fibre attachment for the rear wing - which failed at the Spanish GP at Bracelona (Montjuich Park) sending the car into the crowd and killing a few spectators.

It was Rolf Stommelens Hill-Lola (or maybe thE 1st GH-1), Nothing to do with McLaren at all



And did Hill run Carbon Fibre compoments? Doubtful I think

Edited by freedman on Saturday 27th February 09:54

Brain fade moment.



It was the Embassy Hill GH1 which featured the first use of carbon fibre in an F1 car. I got the race and year right - but the make of car wrong.



Here is a quote from well respected motor racing historian Doug Nye -



"The Gulf-JW sports car team were toying with carbon filament stiffening in ultra-thin lightweight GRP body panels while Gordon Murray was toying with flat carbon insert panels for lightly-loaded areas within Brabham monocoque chassis where weight could be saved. In parallel Andy Smallman and the Hill team tried carbon as a rear wing mount, an application for which the material was not suitable. It fractured and Rolf Stommelen's Formula 1 Hill careered into - and over - the barrier at Montjuich Park during the 1975 Spanish GP - with fatal consequences amongst onlookers. q.v".

That must be a very difficult situation to deal with as the designer of that car/component. You're trying to make a car go as fast as possible, but instead your incorrect calculations end up causing loss of life - and not even to the people paid to take that risk.

It says on the back of the tickets "Motorsport is dangerous".

People back then were even more aware of it because of the regular deaths of the drivers.

[groomi]

Mazda Baiter said:

groomi said:

Eric Mc said:

freedman said:

Eric Mc said:

I recall that the 1975 McLaren M23 used a carbon fibre attachment for the rear wing - which failed at the Spanish GP at Bracelona (Montjuich Park) sending the car into the crowd and killing a few spectators.

It was Rolf Stommelens Hill-Lola (or maybe thE 1st GH-1), Nothing to do with McLaren at all



And did Hill run Carbon Fibre compoments? Doubtful I think

Edited by freedman on Saturday 27th February 09:54

Brain fade moment.



It was the Embassy Hill GH1 which featured the first use of carbon fibre in an F1 car. I got the race and year right - but the make of car wrong.



Here is a quote from well respected motor racing historian Doug Nye -



"The Gulf-JW sports car team were toying with carbon filament stiffening in ultra-thin lightweight GRP body panels while Gordon Murray was toying with flat carbon insert panels for lightly-loaded areas within Brabham monocoque chassis where weight could be saved. In parallel Andy Smallman and the Hill team tried carbon as a rear wing mount, an application for which the material was not suitable. It fractured and Rolf Stommelen's Formula 1 Hill careered into - and over - the barrier at Montjuich Park during the 1975 Spanish GP - with fatal consequences amongst onlookers. q.v".

That must be a very difficult situation to deal with as the designer of that car/component. You're trying to make a car go as fast as possible, but instead your incorrect calculations end up causing loss of life - and not even to the people paid to take that risk.

It says on the back of the tickets "Motorsport is dangerous".

People back then were even more aware of it because of the regular deaths of the drivers.

Ofcourse, but it doesn't make it any easier to deal with in that situation. Mind you, I suppose it's no different to a driver who makes a mistake and ploughs into the crowd (and survives).

Anyway, back on topic: wasn't there an F1 car that used a plywood composite floor in the late 70's or early 80's - might have been a Brabham?

[Nick_F]

Robin Herd at March was a fan of Mallite - an aluminium/balsa sandwich.

[Mazda Baiter]

Nick_F said:

Robin Herd at March was a fan of Mallite - an aluminium/balsa sandwich.

That was first used when he was at McLaren. It was the first Monocoque they had made and Mallite formed the main structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_M2B

Edited by Mazda Baiter on Saturday 27th February 13:40

[Mazda Baiter]

Eric Mc said:

freedman said:

Eric Mc said:

I recall that the 1975 McLaren M23 used a carbon fibre attachment for the rear wing - which failed at the Spanish GP at Bracelona (Montjuich Park) sending the car into the crowd and killing a few spectators.

It was Rolf Stommelens Hill-Lola (or maybe thE 1st GH-1), Nothing to do with McLaren at all

And did Hill run Carbon Fibre compoments? Doubtful I think

Edited by freedman on Saturday 27th February 09:54

Brain fade moment.

It was the Embassy Hill GH1 which featured the first use of carbon fibre in an F1 car. I got the race and year right - but the make of car wrong.

Here is a quote from well respected motor racing historian Doug Nye -

"The Gulf-JW sports car team were toying with carbon filament stiffening in ultra-thin lightweight GRP body panels while Gordon Murray was toying with flat carbon insert panels for lightly-loaded areas within Brabham monocoque chassis where weight could be saved. In parallel Andy Smallman and the Hill team tried carbon as a rear wing mount, an application for which the material was not suitable. It fractured and Rolf Stommelen's Formula 1 Hill careered into - and over - the barrier at Montjuich Park during the 1975 Spanish GP - with fatal consequences amongst onlookers. q.v".

[Eric Mc]

Thanks for the photo. I'm sure the Hill GH1 must have been the first F1 car to race with some carbon fibre components.

[Roger212]

Hi,
Apart from minor uses of CF strands in wet layup glass fibre bodywork I can be quite specific about the history, which has been recently described in a Motor Sport article, link below. I know because I did it, making all the first components myself for the first 3 or 4 years.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single...

Coincidentally, I am giving a talk to the IMechE on Wednesday evening 9th Dec, where I will go into much more detail, registration link below:-

https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_k8MS39...

Roger Sloman

[rallycross]

Roger212 said:

Hi,
Apart from minor uses of CF strands in wet layup glass fibre bodywork I can be quite specific about the history, which has been recently described in a Motor Sport article, link below. I know because I did it, making all the first components myself for the first 3 or 4 years.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single...

Coincidentally, I am giving a talk to the IMechE on Wednesday evening 9th Dec, where I will go into much more detail, registration link below:-

https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_k8MS39...

Roger Sloman

Really interesting to read your article.

What do you see as the future next big step is there anything coming that will be as big a leap forward as carbon fibre was?