FOUR WHEEL DRIFT
Discussion
Four wheel drifting seemed all the rage
in F1 up 'til ground effect when I understand
it was dangerous to break traction. If you look
back at old races from silver arrows days to
Jim Clark in the 60's everyone was at it. My
question is , was it the quick way round a circuit
back then or did they just think it was. I guess
narrower tyres may have had something to do with
it and if that's the case was it harder to do in the
70;s with that big old rubber at the back? Nowdays
of course you hardly ever see oversteer in F1 let
alone a drift!Anyone got any oversteer F1 pics?
I think the deal was with the skinny tyres there was very little grip (i.e low friction). Therefore drifting was quicker than not. Due to low friction, very little speed was scrubbed off. However, as tyres developed and grip improved the trade off against a drift and scrubbing speed reduced. You can still see it happening in the days before ground effect, but once aero became king it was pretty much killed off.
hut49 said:
Nic Jones said:
My desktop is one of the best Formula 1 drifting pics i've found.
Imagine doing that and then finding out that hardly anyone was watching - guess it was common place in those days. :nostalgiaisn'twhatitusedtobesmiley:
That's not so much a drift as oversteer - from a very dodgy surface by the looks of it. In a good high speed for wheel drift you don't see any significant steering application especially at the apex. It is all about the need to maintain momentum and tyres moving sideways (especially excessively) don't help with that. However, keeping all four wheel in line incurs less of a penalty and allows for higher speeds through corners using drift techniques with appropriate tyre technology so the tradeoff is justified.
At least that's how I understand the subject.
It's linked to use of crossply tyres in the age when four wheel drift was the technique to have.
Crossplies can operate at more of a slip angle (angle between the direction of travel and the direction the tyre is pointing in) before losing grip. Radial tyres offer more grip but the window of slip angles in which they operate is narrower, ie radials give a lot less warning of "letting go".
After the grip limit without sliding is breached, there is slightly more grip to be had, both on crossplies and on radials. In other words you need to slide the tyre very slightly to gain the last minute amount from it. Hence four wheel drifting was absolutely the thing to do on crossplies, plus overstepping the limit was a little less catastrophic cos the grip level didn't fall off quickly.
Around the turn of the 70s (I think) teams started to realise that radials were faster and it was inevitable that they were adopted. F1 cars still can and do drift but it's far harder to see cos the boundary between obtaining absolutely ultimate grip and losing a great deal of it by exceeding the operating slip angle is so small.
That JPS Lotus is recovering from oversteer not four-wheel drifting...
All that said, what we need to see is GP cars moving around on their tyres more. It takes an experienced eye to spot the driver working at a level that can be classed as genius by any other method than comparison to his teammate or the stopwatch at the moment, especially on the TV.
Crossplies can operate at more of a slip angle (angle between the direction of travel and the direction the tyre is pointing in) before losing grip. Radial tyres offer more grip but the window of slip angles in which they operate is narrower, ie radials give a lot less warning of "letting go".
After the grip limit without sliding is breached, there is slightly more grip to be had, both on crossplies and on radials. In other words you need to slide the tyre very slightly to gain the last minute amount from it. Hence four wheel drifting was absolutely the thing to do on crossplies, plus overstepping the limit was a little less catastrophic cos the grip level didn't fall off quickly.
Around the turn of the 70s (I think) teams started to realise that radials were faster and it was inevitable that they were adopted. F1 cars still can and do drift but it's far harder to see cos the boundary between obtaining absolutely ultimate grip and losing a great deal of it by exceeding the operating slip angle is so small.
That JPS Lotus is recovering from oversteer not four-wheel drifting...
All that said, what we need to see is GP cars moving around on their tyres more. It takes an experienced eye to spot the driver working at a level that can be classed as genius by any other method than comparison to his teammate or the stopwatch at the moment, especially on the TV.
The "grip" level of tyres has also improved beyond meassure since the days of Fangio et al. Although you will see 1930 and 1950s GP cars still drifting to some extent in historic racing, the art is not practised anything like it used to be because even the relativley narrow tyres used on these historic cars offer a lot more grip nowadays than their 1950s counterparts.
F1 tyres were cross-ply construction well into the 70's iirc - in fact maybe into the 80's ?
Yes cross-ply construction was a lot more forgiving in some ways but the grip level of even the early radials was a revelation by comparison.
I reckon some of the historic meetings, especially in the smaller classes, show quite high levels of fwd even though the surfaces today are most likely much grippier than the tyres were designed for.
I found myself at a rather advantageous spot at Silverstone for the Classic meet in 2005 - watching the FJ's taking club without lifting (or at least the leading 3 or 4 were. I was watching from behind them - formation drifting 2 and three abreast lap after lap. Courageous stuff.
The classic meetings are definitely good places to be to see some of these skills practiced.
Yes cross-ply construction was a lot more forgiving in some ways but the grip level of even the early radials was a revelation by comparison.
I reckon some of the historic meetings, especially in the smaller classes, show quite high levels of fwd even though the surfaces today are most likely much grippier than the tyres were designed for.
I found myself at a rather advantageous spot at Silverstone for the Classic meet in 2005 - watching the FJ's taking club without lifting (or at least the leading 3 or 4 were. I was watching from behind them - formation drifting 2 and three abreast lap after lap. Courageous stuff.
The classic meetings are definitely good places to be to see some of these skills practiced.
Difficult to say really, might be Ferradura or Sargento
Old layout - www.etracksonline.co.uk/SAmerica/Brazil/interlagos40-89.html which you can follow on this modern aerial photo here - www.satmidia.com.br/biblioteca/images/interlagos.jpg
Old layout - www.etracksonline.co.uk/SAmerica/Brazil/interlagos40-89.html which you can follow on this modern aerial photo here - www.satmidia.com.br/biblioteca/images/interlagos.jpg
four wheel drift seems to be inevitable if you are driving the car right on the limit.
I remember when I used to race ff1600, some 2@ drove into the side of me as I got alongside him, taking us both off at the chicane at Mallory.
as i stood there fuming, I watched the race and was surprised at just how much drift was evident through the chicane, ( certainly the 1st part of it anyway)
there is no feeling quite like getting a drift on, and riding it through!!
I laugh at Tiff Needel when he over exagerates an over stear on telly, but I bet he is loving it
I remember when I used to race ff1600, some 2@ drove into the side of me as I got alongside him, taking us both off at the chicane at Mallory.
as i stood there fuming, I watched the race and was surprised at just how much drift was evident through the chicane, ( certainly the 1st part of it anyway)
there is no feeling quite like getting a drift on, and riding it through!!
I laugh at Tiff Needel when he over exagerates an over stear on telly, but I bet he is loving it
In www.motorfilms.com the current volume 17 Stirling Moss gives a very good description of 4 wheel drift with both models and slow motion footage in 1951.
These are a great series of 90 min films of motor racing footage from the past century of filming motor sport.
These are a great series of 90 min films of motor racing footage from the past century of filming motor sport.
Wow, thread resurrection and all that.
One of the things that I miss most from my Westfield XI was the way you steered the car on the throttle. I think part of this was down to the skinny little tyres but whatever it was. it was the most fun car to drive I've ever had. If I want to recapture the 4 wheel drifting feeling of the XI what should I buy next?
Can I set up a Caterham to be the same? Would I just need to go narrow tyres (a bit like the Caterham 160) or is something else needed?
Would a Lotus Elan or Elan+2 be the same, I know they are noted as fantastic handling but what does that mean?
I think that nowadays people confuse grip with handling, for me handling is what happens when grip is exceeded. Most modern cars seem to have such grippy tyres that the gap between stick and twist is so narrow that you can't really enjoy it, the Westfield had very little grip, but the gap between stick and full spin was enormous and that for me was where the fun was to be found.
One of the things that I miss most from my Westfield XI was the way you steered the car on the throttle. I think part of this was down to the skinny little tyres but whatever it was. it was the most fun car to drive I've ever had. If I want to recapture the 4 wheel drifting feeling of the XI what should I buy next?
Can I set up a Caterham to be the same? Would I just need to go narrow tyres (a bit like the Caterham 160) or is something else needed?
Would a Lotus Elan or Elan+2 be the same, I know they are noted as fantastic handling but what does that mean?
I think that nowadays people confuse grip with handling, for me handling is what happens when grip is exceeded. Most modern cars seem to have such grippy tyres that the gap between stick and twist is so narrow that you can't really enjoy it, the Westfield had very little grip, but the gap between stick and full spin was enormous and that for me was where the fun was to be found.
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