Cost of race support
Discussion
Hi all,
I'm thinking of getting into motorsports in a cost effective way over the next 12 to 24 months.
I like older cars and i like porsches so am looking at potentially getting something like a 924 or 944 to run a few races in CSCC future classics or HSCC 70s roadsport (open to any suggestions but effectively something novice friendly with 'polite' driving standards).
It looks like a race prepared car for less than £10 grand is very possible. I don't have the space nor do i want to buy a trailer to go to and from the track though.
How much would i be looking at to have a team bring the car to and from the track with some basic support? would probably be 3/4 race weekends and a couple of test days. local tracks only.
I really have no idea so any indication would be helpful so i can price up how realistic/ costly this would really be.
many thanks!
I'm thinking of getting into motorsports in a cost effective way over the next 12 to 24 months.
I like older cars and i like porsches so am looking at potentially getting something like a 924 or 944 to run a few races in CSCC future classics or HSCC 70s roadsport (open to any suggestions but effectively something novice friendly with 'polite' driving standards).
It looks like a race prepared car for less than £10 grand is very possible. I don't have the space nor do i want to buy a trailer to go to and from the track though.
How much would i be looking at to have a team bring the car to and from the track with some basic support? would probably be 3/4 race weekends and a couple of test days. local tracks only.
I really have no idea so any indication would be helpful so i can price up how realistic/ costly this would really be.
many thanks!
Thanks for the quick reply Dan!
Assume that would be for 1 day so if racing is over 2 days it would be double?
What type of mechanical support would be expected for that price?
To be honest i think i would be looking for someone who can give me general guidance and a complete newbie as much as spanners if required.
Assume that would be for 1 day so if racing is over 2 days it would be double?
What type of mechanical support would be expected for that price?
To be honest i think i would be looking for someone who can give me general guidance and a complete newbie as much as spanners if required.
It wouldn’t be double for a two day meeting as the transport costs etc are the same regardless but would be more for two days, yes.
For that you should expect help preparing the car for each session (spanner check, fuelling, etc.) and the security of knowing if anything goes wrong or you have a bump, you have a team of mechanics to jump on it and hopefully get it fixed up before the next session.
As well as the security of knowing a mechanical issue or bump is less likely to be the end of your weekend, being with a team means you have someone to let you know when you need to sign on, someone to get the car to scrutineering (if required), someone to tell you when you need to be in the assembly area and most likely someone who can help with your driving and setup of the car.
For that you should expect help preparing the car for each session (spanner check, fuelling, etc.) and the security of knowing if anything goes wrong or you have a bump, you have a team of mechanics to jump on it and hopefully get it fixed up before the next session.
As well as the security of knowing a mechanical issue or bump is less likely to be the end of your weekend, being with a team means you have someone to let you know when you need to sign on, someone to get the car to scrutineering (if required), someone to tell you when you need to be in the assembly area and most likely someone who can help with your driving and setup of the car.
Edited by Dan BSCS on Thursday 11th March 20:25
CSCC run two day meetings often, but each series practices and races on one day, effectively two x one day meetings, so no need to factor in the cost of a full weekend.
I think your question has an answer that is “how long is a piece of string”. No doubt plenty of professional,teams will do what you want for several hundreds £ a weekend but there may also be far cheaper ways of doing it:
- share a car with some one (CSCC races are mostly pit stop races) who provides the car and allows a second driver to share for a small fee/ share of costs. I have done this as the car provider and one of the drivers.
- plenty of small outfits who look after cars as an additional, part time, income stream to their main line of work who will be cheaper than a “professional” team
- arrive and drive with a professional team who own and provide the car etc
Certainly the first two approaches will be cheaper than the third, and cheaper than paying a team to look after your own far.
Ring the CSCC office and ask if they know any car owner looking to share a car.
I think your question has an answer that is “how long is a piece of string”. No doubt plenty of professional,teams will do what you want for several hundreds £ a weekend but there may also be far cheaper ways of doing it:
- share a car with some one (CSCC races are mostly pit stop races) who provides the car and allows a second driver to share for a small fee/ share of costs. I have done this as the car provider and one of the drivers.
- plenty of small outfits who look after cars as an additional, part time, income stream to their main line of work who will be cheaper than a “professional” team
- arrive and drive with a professional team who own and provide the car etc
Certainly the first two approaches will be cheaper than the third, and cheaper than paying a team to look after your own far.
Ring the CSCC office and ask if they know any car owner looking to share a car.
Edited by andy97 on Friday 12th March 07:19
Dan BSCS said:
As well as the security of knowing a mechanical issue or bump is less likely to be the end of your weekend, being with a team means you have someone to let you know when you need to sign on, someone to get the car to scrutineering (if required), someone to tell you when you need to be in the assembly area and most likely someone who can help with your driving and setup of the car.
hi Dan - this is really what i am looking for. Thanks for the colour. How should i go about finding a suitable outfit? should the focus be on determining the racing series i want to run in first and then looking for companies that offer race support in the series?Edited by Dan BSCS on Thursday 11th March 20:25
many thanks
It's probably worth looking at different series to see which operators are already aligned to those series/championships. If you choose support with one of those providers you're likely to either save some brass (communal services between customers) or get a much better product for the same money.
My recommendation would be to widen your search and potentially look at Arrive and Drive options. MR2s from Rogue are between £1000 and £1100 A&D plus £400 for testing.
To pay an operator to maintain your car you're paying for:
- pre-used checks (tied into their parts provision)
- transport
- hotel
- race support
- fuel
- food for staff
- hotel for second night (if required)
- food for staff (2nd day)
- transport
A&D you literally turn up with a fixed price all inclusive - downside is that you're tied into fixing any damage immediately whereas if it's yours you might leave it for a few months.
My recommendation would be to widen your search and potentially look at Arrive and Drive options. MR2s from Rogue are between £1000 and £1100 A&D plus £400 for testing.
To pay an operator to maintain your car you're paying for:
- pre-used checks (tied into their parts provision)
- transport
- hotel
- race support
- fuel
- food for staff
- hotel for second night (if required)
- food for staff (2nd day)
- transport
A&D you literally turn up with a fixed price all inclusive - downside is that you're tied into fixing any damage immediately whereas if it's yours you might leave it for a few months.
It depends how each company cost their business model.
When we were offering race support, the cost was made up of a transportation element, an accomodation element and an agreed amount of labour at the circuit. We weren't clock watching as some races would be easy, the car would be faultless and very little work actually needed, and some meetings everything would conspire against you and you'd be working late into the evening. Some meetings were one dayers, some two and possibly testing on top.
We agreed a set series of jobs to do on the car between races and also to fix / improve things as well. We didn't charge storage during the racing season, although if the car was dormant or over winter we would consider it.
The cost depends on how much support you want, and wether you want the full bells and whistles - fancy floors, walling, driver coach, etc.,
When we were offering race support, the cost was made up of a transportation element, an accomodation element and an agreed amount of labour at the circuit. We weren't clock watching as some races would be easy, the car would be faultless and very little work actually needed, and some meetings everything would conspire against you and you'd be working late into the evening. Some meetings were one dayers, some two and possibly testing on top.
We agreed a set series of jobs to do on the car between races and also to fix / improve things as well. We didn't charge storage during the racing season, although if the car was dormant or over winter we would consider it.
The cost depends on how much support you want, and wether you want the full bells and whistles - fancy floors, walling, driver coach, etc.,
Andy97 - thank you for the thoughtful answer.
I am definitely open to different paths to get started so thank you for laying some ideas out.
Regarding sharing a car - i wonder if the risk of damage makes it difficult for both car owner and second driver to ever relax and enjoy the experience - or can that be insured?
this would probably be the most logical for a first season for few races. I'll take up your suggestion and call CSCC.
I have to confess that i like toys and a race car would be exciting to own. if i went down that path, small outfits as you describe them is what i was thinking about - i just don't know know where to find them. I would be looking at going to local tracks, so around Costswolds or London as we split our time between both. Any names of such outfits that you know of would be much appreciated.
I am definitely open to different paths to get started so thank you for laying some ideas out.
Regarding sharing a car - i wonder if the risk of damage makes it difficult for both car owner and second driver to ever relax and enjoy the experience - or can that be insured?
this would probably be the most logical for a first season for few races. I'll take up your suggestion and call CSCC.
I have to confess that i like toys and a race car would be exciting to own. if i went down that path, small outfits as you describe them is what i was thinking about - i just don't know know where to find them. I would be looking at going to local tracks, so around Costswolds or London as we split our time between both. Any names of such outfits that you know of would be much appreciated.
cjslator - I can see why the A&D might make sense but it looks like its going to be great for mx5, Mr2, C1 type cars. Less so for older sports cars.
Frankly I would rather own the car and the risk of a write off, rather than rent the car and still own the cost of the write off.
andrewcliffe - i am really looking for transport for the car, some help if the car needs minor fixing on the day and some general guidance throughout the day.
I went to check on the back of Andy97's comment and it indeed looks like most series i would be interested in run the event in a single day so no overnight stay. If the same outfit can look after the car's maintenance in-between races that's also great.
Frankly I would rather own the car and the risk of a write off, rather than rent the car and still own the cost of the write off.
andrewcliffe - i am really looking for transport for the car, some help if the car needs minor fixing on the day and some general guidance throughout the day.
I went to check on the back of Andy97's comment and it indeed looks like most series i would be interested in run the event in a single day so no overnight stay. If the same outfit can look after the car's maintenance in-between races that's also great.
When we were running cars we decided to always arrive the evening before because once the truck broke down en-route on the way to Silverstone for testing. We lost half the morning and was only saved becasue I was able to get a second van and trailer out, unload race car, spares and tools and transfer to the other vehicle, and then sit with the other vehicle for the brake down service to get there whilst the other guys went to the circuit.
From that point on we decided to always arrive the night before, and that way the paying customer would have his car ready for the first session of the day.
From that point on we decided to always arrive the night before, and that way the paying customer would have his car ready for the first session of the day.
andrewcliffe said:
When we were running cars we decided to always arrive the evening before because once the truck broke down en-route on the way to Silverstone for testing. We lost half the morning and was only saved becasue I was able to get a second van and trailer out, unload race car, spares and tools and transfer to the other vehicle, and then sit with the other vehicle for the brake down service to get there whilst the other guys went to the circuit.
From that point on we decided to always arrive the night before, and that way the paying customer would have his car ready for the first session of the day.
Same here. Fortunately only ever broken down on the way home. From that point on we decided to always arrive the night before, and that way the paying customer would have his car ready for the first session of the day.
Do you really need much race support for a 944 in '70's Roadsports? I would think that you could easily do it yourself. When I did it, in a Scimitar gte, I actually drove my car to the circuit on the wet tyres with the 'road legal' slicks on wheels in the back along with some tools and race kit !!!! Ex wife helped as pit crew!! At Combe I had a minor off which bent a front wishbone, and damaged the wing, found a guy on the circuit who heated it up and we straighten it out, tank taped up the bent front wing and carried on with our trip to see friends in Ottery St Mary!!! although the car got a new nick name of Pudsey and had a large amount of front toe out!!!
For the Porsches that you want to run, I would have thought that your best bet would be to find a team already running/prepping cars for that series and see if they will run you too. Contact the HSCC or the series organiser who should be able to recommend people.
You should be able to get support from around £350 a day for one man with trailer and van, usually you have the travel fuel costs/overnight stay on top plus a day to prep the car before each event, plus any parts used. If you have 2 or 3 guys and a truck, pit flooring etc then its more like £500. Test days the same too. As said above, the guy/guys will do what ever is needed for the whole day/evening, it just luck of the drawer for them how much, some races its just get it scrutineered, fuel it , warm it up and watch, other days its all hours non stop rebuilding the fuel pump/gearbox etc......
For the Porsches that you want to run, I would have thought that your best bet would be to find a team already running/prepping cars for that series and see if they will run you too. Contact the HSCC or the series organiser who should be able to recommend people.
You should be able to get support from around £350 a day for one man with trailer and van, usually you have the travel fuel costs/overnight stay on top plus a day to prep the car before each event, plus any parts used. If you have 2 or 3 guys and a truck, pit flooring etc then its more like £500. Test days the same too. As said above, the guy/guys will do what ever is needed for the whole day/evening, it just luck of the drawer for them how much, some races its just get it scrutineered, fuel it , warm it up and watch, other days its all hours non stop rebuilding the fuel pump/gearbox etc......
james.a.c.911 said:
Andy97 - thank you for the thoughtful answer.
I am definitely open to different paths to get started so thank you for laying some ideas out.
Regarding sharing a car - i wonder if the risk of damage makes it difficult for both car owner and second driver to ever relax and enjoy the experience - or can that be insured?
this would probably be the most logical for a first season for few races. I'll take up your suggestion and call CSCC.
I have to confess that i like toys and a race car would be exciting to own. if i went down that path, small outfits as you describe them is what i was thinking about - i just don't know know where to find them. I would be looking at going to local tracks, so around Costswolds or London as we split our time between both. Any names of such outfits that you know of would be much appreciated.
I used to share my 924S and then a 944 Turbo with various people, I was the owner-driver and a friend helped with (paid) support on race days. I shared race day costs on a 50:50 basis and took a small “hire fee” on top. It was all done on a handshake basis!I am definitely open to different paths to get started so thank you for laying some ideas out.
Regarding sharing a car - i wonder if the risk of damage makes it difficult for both car owner and second driver to ever relax and enjoy the experience - or can that be insured?
this would probably be the most logical for a first season for few races. I'll take up your suggestion and call CSCC.
I have to confess that i like toys and a race car would be exciting to own. if i went down that path, small outfits as you describe them is what i was thinking about - i just don't know know where to find them. I would be looking at going to local tracks, so around Costswolds or London as we split our time between both. Any names of such outfits that you know of would be much appreciated.
Yes, damage is a possibility but this was understood to mean that the driver in the car at the time of the damage was responsible for paying for it to be fixed. If the car was destroyed, the driver in the car at the time bought the remains for a fixed agreed value (agreed beforehand!).
Maybe I am more trusting than some, but it worked for me, but I never suffered any problems.
Speak to David or Hugo in the CSCC office as they will know people who may be prepared to do something similar. They will also know of teams that may be able to offer the race prep and support service you originally asked about.
Try “EMC Motorsport” - they are in Birmingham but good guys to deal with - they have built and support a lot of 944s over the years (amongst others) and they may know of good cars available to buy and may also be able to help with support.
Another outfit to talk to is” Augment Automotive” in aGloucestershire - they don’t do race support that I know of but they have certainly worked on several 924/944 race cars and offer performance upgrades, they may know of a car or two for sale.
This one has been on RsceCarsDirect.com for a while:
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/1179...
Looks nicely done and should be good for CSCC Future Classics Class C80 1800-2500cc).
A 924/944 is a great choice for the sort of racing you are talking about - handle really well and good spares availability. They are very popular and competiitive in CSCC Future Classics. Pick the right car and they can also be used in HSCC 70s (or the new 80s) Roadsports series, MSVR Trackday Trophy, and all of the 750mc’s Roadsports/ Club Enduro/ CALM Porsches series’.
Edited by andy97 on Saturday 13th March 08:31
number 46 said:
Do you really need much race support for a 944 in '70's Roadsports? I would think that you could easily do it yourself. When I did it, in a Scimitar gte, I actually drove my car to the circuit on the wet tyres with the 'road legal' slicks on wheels in the back along with some tools and race kit !!!! Ex wife helped as pit crew!! At Combe I had a minor off which bent a front wishbone, and damaged the wing, found a guy on the circuit who heated it up and we straighten it out, tank taped up the bent front wing and carried on with our trip to see friends in Ottery St Mary!!! although the car got a new nick name of Pudsey and had a large amount of front toe out!!!
For the Porsches that you want to run, I would have thought that your best bet would be to find a team already running/prepping cars for that series and see if they will run you too. Contact the HSCC or the series organiser who should be able to recommend people.
I have looked at road legal car for 70's road sport and driving there. However for a first time racing i would like to extra safety net of 'if it brakes i still get home' (also, i don't really have space to the car). For me the biggest limiting factor is that i have very little free time (and no mechanical skills1), so not being able to race because of a small mechanical issue would also be a major downside.For the Porsches that you want to run, I would have thought that your best bet would be to find a team already running/prepping cars for that series and see if they will run you too. Contact the HSCC or the series organiser who should be able to recommend people.
I'll go to the closest CSCC future classics i can get to and talk to the teams there - thanks for the advice, sounds like that's the way to go.
andy97 said:
Try “EMC Motorsport” - they are in Birmingham but good guys to deal with - they have built and support a lot of 944s over the years (amongst others) and they may know of good cars available to buy and may also be able to help with support.
Another outfit to talk to is” Augment Automotive” in aGloucestershire - they don’t do race support that I know of but they have certainly worked on several 924/944 race cars and offer performance upgrades, they may know of a car or two for sale.
This one has been on RsceCarsDirect.com for a while:
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/1179...
Looks nicely done and should be good for CSCC Future Classics Class C80 1800-2500cc).
A 924/944 is a great choice for the sort of racing you are talking about - handle really well and good spares availability. They are very popular and competiitive in CSCC Future Classics. Pick the right car and they can also be used in HSCC 70s (or the new 80s) Roadsports series, MSVR Trackday Trophy, and all of the 750mc’s Roadsports/ Club Enduro/ CALM Porsches series’.
Thanks for all your advice Andy97. I'll be in touch with EMC and Augment (who are relatively local to me).Another outfit to talk to is” Augment Automotive” in aGloucestershire - they don’t do race support that I know of but they have certainly worked on several 924/944 race cars and offer performance upgrades, they may know of a car or two for sale.
This one has been on RsceCarsDirect.com for a while:
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/1179...
Looks nicely done and should be good for CSCC Future Classics Class C80 1800-2500cc).
A 924/944 is a great choice for the sort of racing you are talking about - handle really well and good spares availability. They are very popular and competiitive in CSCC Future Classics. Pick the right car and they can also be used in HSCC 70s (or the new 80s) Roadsports series, MSVR Trackday Trophy, and all of the 750mc’s Roadsports/ Club Enduro/ CALM Porsches series’.
Edited by andy97 on Saturday 13th March 08:31
I saw that car - definitely cheap. Looks like it has never been raced though - not sure whether that is a good or bad thing? I would imagine a tried and tested car will be the real turnkey solution?
I see you know these cars well (i had a 944 Turbo road car a few years ago and miss it!). Any advice on what to look for 924, 944, 944S1, 944S2? (i assume Turbo is going to be a whole new level of cost with bigger brakes, cooling, etc.)
james.a.c.911 said:
Thanks for all your advice Andy97. I'll be in touch with EMC and Augment (who are relatively local to me).
I saw that car - definitely cheap. Looks like it has never been raced though - not sure whether that is a good or bad thing? I would imagine a tried and tested car will be the real turnkey solution?
I see you know these cars well (i had a 944 Turbo road car a few years ago and miss it!). Any advice on what to look for 924, 944, 944S1, 944S2? (i assume Turbo is going to be a whole new level of cost with bigger brakes, cooling, etc.)
I am not an expert in these cars by any means but my 924S was the best handling car I have ever driven. If it was me, I would look for a 944S2 but you will need to be careful to look at the regs for the series you choose as what is eligible in CSCC may not be eligible in HSCC. That may not bother you if you want to stick with CSCC (and the car will almost certainly be eligible for 750 Roadsports and Club Enduro or MSVR Track day trophy but the HSCC may have stricter rules.I saw that car - definitely cheap. Looks like it has never been raced though - not sure whether that is a good or bad thing? I would imagine a tried and tested car will be the real turnkey solution?
I see you know these cars well (i had a 944 Turbo road car a few years ago and miss it!). Any advice on what to look for 924, 944, 944S1, 944S2? (i assume Turbo is going to be a whole new level of cost with bigger brakes, cooling, etc.)
EMC are the people to talk to.
just one of the things a team will do for you when you run with them..
Break a gearbox in afternoon qualifying...
get one of the crew to drive back to base, grab a gearbox from stock, bring it back while the rest of the crew pull the engine and box ready to drop it all back and fire it up..
all while you relax in the hotel bar, and the lads havent even had any tea....
https://fb.watch/4fFKMxys4l/
Break a gearbox in afternoon qualifying...
get one of the crew to drive back to base, grab a gearbox from stock, bring it back while the rest of the crew pull the engine and box ready to drop it all back and fire it up..
all while you relax in the hotel bar, and the lads havent even had any tea....
https://fb.watch/4fFKMxys4l/
Yes. Our driver managed to kill an engine. It was either in testing on a Friday or on the first day of race day. Whilst the team were busy removing the dead engine, I had jumped in our van and was driving back towards base. Meanwhile someone had put a spare engine into another van and started heading towards the circuit. We met about halfway there, swapped vans and returned. Engine was fitted and I think we finished at midnight. A few hours sleep and an early start to double check everything with fresh eyes and daylight. All OK.
Yup, I once (after a supercharger failure in quali) drove from Croft to Ipswich and back again to get a new supercharger and then worked till 3am to fit said supercharger so the car would make the 3 hour race the next day and the driver didn’t get nothing for the £2.5-3k he’d spent that weekend.
That’s what you’re paying for. Some people would never consider it, but even if you can run the car yourself, you might find it a lot more enjoyable to have someone run it for you.
That’s what you’re paying for. Some people would never consider it, but even if you can run the car yourself, you might find it a lot more enjoyable to have someone run it for you.
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