BTCC mechanics feature
Discussion
I personally would love to see a piece on how they go about setting the car up. I realise it’s unlikely to happen as I imagine there closely guarded secrets but I can live in hope.
Something along the lines of.
Basic setup.
Driver goes out.
Comes back in and we hear the discussion between driver and engineer.
Then interview the engineer about what the option are to change, spring rates, geometry, anti roll bar, damper changes etc.
Driver goes out
Comes back and we here the discussions between them again.
Repeat until they have the sweet setup.
I’m always intrigued about how (the process) they go about altering the setup. I mean there are so many variables where do you start.
Bit like project cars on the PlayStation for example. An absolute shed load of possible settings to change. How do they go about getting it ‘right’.
Something along the lines of.
Basic setup.
Driver goes out.
Comes back in and we hear the discussion between driver and engineer.
Then interview the engineer about what the option are to change, spring rates, geometry, anti roll bar, damper changes etc.
Driver goes out
Comes back and we here the discussions between them again.
Repeat until they have the sweet setup.
I’m always intrigued about how (the process) they go about altering the setup. I mean there are so many variables where do you start.
Bit like project cars on the PlayStation for example. An absolute shed load of possible settings to change. How do they go about getting it ‘right’.
MB140 said:
I’m always intrigued about how (the process) they go about altering the setup. I mean there are so many variables where do you start.
Bit like project cars on the PlayStation for example. An absolute shed load of possible settings to change. How do they go about getting it ‘right’.
That's a super complicated and in-depth subject!Bit like project cars on the PlayStation for example. An absolute shed load of possible settings to change. How do they go about getting it ‘right’.
The teams will have data from the car, feedback from the driver and their own experience to draw on.
e.g. if the driver says he's understeering too much in the high speed they could look at the aero balance data and the suspension kinematics and decide that it needs more anti roll etc.
But ultimately some it it is practice -test days are often spent with gradual tweaks of various components and noting how the car reacts (again along with data), then building up a library of possible changes and their effects.
There are many good books on the subject and specialist videos. It's not really something that a short fill-in segment on the ITV show could even hope to scratch the surface of. One thing to bear in mind is that NGTC cars are very different to most tin top race cars in terms of setup due to their suspension setup.
I have some experience of sitting in on set up discussions with my friend who I data engineered for. This was in various radicals, Ginetta G55 super cup and LMP3 cup.
Ours wasn't typical as his dad was his race engineer/team boss and they didn't communicate...professionally. For us, driver shares on board video, maybe he and I show his dad some plots from the data, we discuss the change in behaviour we want and take from there.
Very very generally, and I'm by no means an expert, the biggest impact you could make was through altering the relative roll stiffness front to rear (using anti roll bars, dampers or spring rates), or the relative ride height under braking/acceleration front to rear (either with static ride height, third element changes, spring rates or damper settings). That's how you give the driver the balance of under or over steer he wants. Geometry was for fine adjustment and getting tyre temperature/wear more even. Aero generally take as much off as we could to help overtaking, just trim it for balance.
Not how everyone would do it, but it worked for us (3 radical championships, a race win in the Ginetta despite having an uphill battle and a few race wins/fastest laps/poles in the LMP3 cup)
Ours wasn't typical as his dad was his race engineer/team boss and they didn't communicate...professionally. For us, driver shares on board video, maybe he and I show his dad some plots from the data, we discuss the change in behaviour we want and take from there.
Very very generally, and I'm by no means an expert, the biggest impact you could make was through altering the relative roll stiffness front to rear (using anti roll bars, dampers or spring rates), or the relative ride height under braking/acceleration front to rear (either with static ride height, third element changes, spring rates or damper settings). That's how you give the driver the balance of under or over steer he wants. Geometry was for fine adjustment and getting tyre temperature/wear more even. Aero generally take as much off as we could to help overtaking, just trim it for balance.
Not how everyone would do it, but it worked for us (3 radical championships, a race win in the Ginetta despite having an uphill battle and a few race wins/fastest laps/poles in the LMP3 cup)
Benrad said:
I have some experience of sitting in on set up discussions with my friend who I data engineered for. This was in various radicals, Ginetta G55 super cup and LMP3 cup.
Ours wasn't typical as his dad was his race engineer/team boss and they didn't communicate...professionally. For us, driver shares on board video, maybe he and I show his dad some plots from the data, we discuss the change in behaviour we want and take from there.
Very very generally, and I'm by no means an expert, the biggest impact you could make was through altering the relative roll stiffness front to rear (using anti roll bars, dampers or spring rates), or the relative ride height under braking/acceleration front to rear (either with static ride height, third element changes, spring rates or damper settings). That's how you give the driver the balance of under or over steer he wants. Geometry was for fine adjustment and getting tyre temperature/wear more even. Aero generally take as much off as we could to help overtaking, just trim it for balance.
Not how everyone would do it, but it worked for us (3 radical championships, a race win in the Ginetta despite having an uphill battle and a few race wins/fastest laps/poles in the LMP3 cup)
Thanks for taking the time to explain. It just seems a dark art to me. I suppose the advent of data analysis makes it easier. Before your relying on the word of the drive describing something. With the advent of data and telemetry it’s real world fact. Ours wasn't typical as his dad was his race engineer/team boss and they didn't communicate...professionally. For us, driver shares on board video, maybe he and I show his dad some plots from the data, we discuss the change in behaviour we want and take from there.
Very very generally, and I'm by no means an expert, the biggest impact you could make was through altering the relative roll stiffness front to rear (using anti roll bars, dampers or spring rates), or the relative ride height under braking/acceleration front to rear (either with static ride height, third element changes, spring rates or damper settings). That's how you give the driver the balance of under or over steer he wants. Geometry was for fine adjustment and getting tyre temperature/wear more even. Aero generally take as much off as we could to help overtaking, just trim it for balance.
Not how everyone would do it, but it worked for us (3 radical championships, a race win in the Ginetta despite having an uphill battle and a few race wins/fastest laps/poles in the LMP3 cup)
Anyway thanks.
MB140 said:
Thanks for taking the time to explain. It just seems a dark art to me. I suppose the advent of data analysis makes it easier. Before your relying on the word of the drive describing something. With the advent of data and telemetry it’s real world fact.
Anyway thanks.
No problem at all, nice to have an interesting, fun, polite discussion on PH for once!Anyway thanks.
Top motorsports will use the data more than we did, we relied far more on driver feedback (supplemented with video as it makes it easier for the driver to explain). You can use damper potentiometers to assess the suspension movement, but we never got to that level of sophistication.
Although no way near BTCC level, we race our cars (Civic Type R) in various club racing.
We spend a lot of track time (test days/track days), footage analysis, and hire pro's for set up (All Square for example).
A lot of set ups are driver specific/ability/preference.
A good example is Tom Ingram on his Thruxton setup; not many people can handle/keep the car on the road.
My set up is very lairy, my team mate hates it for example, and if we share the car he is fast in his car, and im faster in my car.
We also have the added issue of being able to choose our own tyres (List 1b for example), and the various complexities of getting the best out of tyres, over a quali lap vs a race vs multiple race weekends.
For the wet, if time allows, we try to soften up; disconnect roll bars, and predefined turns of dialling out the rear toe!
To sum up; total mine field - and most teams/people keep the actual setups close to their chest as it takes ages to get something that works. Plus it may well be useless to someone else.
You also have the FWD vs RWD setup; guessing Sutton has a total sweet spot in geo/setup for a RWD NGTC car, that other drivers can't manage.
EDIT: We don't change setups race to race, as there's a cost involved, despite knowing for example, a high speed circuit doesn't need a darty car at the rear. So its a compromise.
We spend a lot of track time (test days/track days), footage analysis, and hire pro's for set up (All Square for example).
A lot of set ups are driver specific/ability/preference.
A good example is Tom Ingram on his Thruxton setup; not many people can handle/keep the car on the road.
My set up is very lairy, my team mate hates it for example, and if we share the car he is fast in his car, and im faster in my car.
We also have the added issue of being able to choose our own tyres (List 1b for example), and the various complexities of getting the best out of tyres, over a quali lap vs a race vs multiple race weekends.
For the wet, if time allows, we try to soften up; disconnect roll bars, and predefined turns of dialling out the rear toe!
To sum up; total mine field - and most teams/people keep the actual setups close to their chest as it takes ages to get something that works. Plus it may well be useless to someone else.
You also have the FWD vs RWD setup; guessing Sutton has a total sweet spot in geo/setup for a RWD NGTC car, that other drivers can't manage.
EDIT: We don't change setups race to race, as there's a cost involved, despite knowing for example, a high speed circuit doesn't need a darty car at the rear. So its a compromise.
Another example of what you can do with a relatively simple sensor (steering angle) and a bit of lateral thinking.
Get your driver to go out and set a gentle lap, record the steering angle data throughout the lap.
Now get them to go out and try and do a hot quali lap and record the same data - overlay the two and you can see exactly where the car is both under and over-steering compared to the slow lap. Compare that to what the driver tells you about the lap and you can judge both how the car feels and what he thinks about it.
Next you can do a bit of maths and use the integral of the total amount of steering input per lap for a stint to see how the car behaves as the tyres go off - does it push towards understeer, oversteer, stay neutral etc? Then you can use that as an indicator of how to balance the car up between ultimate quali where it's just about a single lap, and race pace where you want to keep the balance as controlled as you can (driver preference as well of course).
You can also compare driver vs driver to see how their styles differ and whether they're over-working the steering trying to fight understeer, overworking the tyres etc.
That's just one sensor - as already said a lot of snazzy race dampers have potentiometers built into them which can let you record their travel, that gives you a huge amount of data about what each individual wheel is doing to help refine the setup.
Get your driver to go out and set a gentle lap, record the steering angle data throughout the lap.
Now get them to go out and try and do a hot quali lap and record the same data - overlay the two and you can see exactly where the car is both under and over-steering compared to the slow lap. Compare that to what the driver tells you about the lap and you can judge both how the car feels and what he thinks about it.
Next you can do a bit of maths and use the integral of the total amount of steering input per lap for a stint to see how the car behaves as the tyres go off - does it push towards understeer, oversteer, stay neutral etc? Then you can use that as an indicator of how to balance the car up between ultimate quali where it's just about a single lap, and race pace where you want to keep the balance as controlled as you can (driver preference as well of course).
You can also compare driver vs driver to see how their styles differ and whether they're over-working the steering trying to fight understeer, overworking the tyres etc.
That's just one sensor - as already said a lot of snazzy race dampers have potentiometers built into them which can let you record their travel, that gives you a huge amount of data about what each individual wheel is doing to help refine the setup.
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