CSCC Tin Tops series - Any good for a beginner?

[User name]

Afternoon all - I'm looking at entering a "starter" race series this year, I have no track experience other than some Rotax Max kart experience a few years ago.

I've been looking for something cheap that I could do in a fairly normal road car with the obvious safety mods, and saw the Tin Tops series by CSCC.

- Does anyone have any experience in this series?
- Good as a novice series?
- What are the costs involved? (other than maintenance / accommodation etc)
- I'm thinking of using a Clio 182, good idea/ bad idea?
- What are the costs of getting a bog-standard road car up to track spec? (bare minimum, not performance mods)

Thanks!

[andy97]

User name said:

Afternoon all - I'm looking at entering a "starter" race series this year, I have no track experience other than some Rotax Max kart experience a few years ago.

I've been looking for something cheap that I could do in a fairly normal road car with the obvious safety mods, and saw the Tin Tops series by CSCC.

- Does anyone have any experience in this series?
- Good as a novice series?
- What are the costs involved? (other than maintenance / accommodation etc)
- I'm thinking of using a Clio 182, good idea/ bad idea?
- What are the costs of getting a bog-standard road car up to track spec? (bare minimum, not performance mods)

Thanks!

I have raced in CSCC Tin Tops, albeit a few years ago now; and since then I have continued to race primarily in one of CSCC's other series.

It is a very good club, with a good paddock atmosphere, helpful people (both other members, Series Co-ordinators and in the club office) and generally very good driving standards.

I have been accused of being biased in the past, because I was on the CSCC Committee for a few years, but I have raced with other clubs inc 750MC and BRSCC and I think that CSCC is the best all round and that's why I continue to race with them.

Plenty of novices have cut their teeth racing with CSCC and I think it is a good club for a novice to start out in because the costs are not outrageous, the 30 minute practice and 40 min races (with a pit stop for one or two drivers) give good track time and good value for money and because the racing tends not to be as "cut and thrust" as in some other sprint or one make series so less likelihood of damage.

I think that there are a fair few Clios racing in Tin Tops and its probably a good car due to good spares availability ete. However, I would always suggest that it is cheaper and easier to buy a car that is already prepped for racing than to try to convert yourself. People think its cheaper to convert, but generally it isn't and it takes far longer than you think. If you buy a car then it will usually be already set up, too.

Have a look on Pistonheads in the Motorsports section, on ebay (search for "race car") or on racecarsdirect.co.uk and you will see cars that are already prepped that should not be too expensive. I previously raced a Fiat Uno (bought for £2K), an Alfa 33 (bought for £600! yes really) and a Porsche 924 (£4K) etc

As for costs - you can race more cheaply than people think, particularly if you share the care with someone who can share costs, although that isn't necessary. Club membership fee is £39 per annum; Series Registration is £99 per annum; entry fees are typically about £385 per 40 min race at the main circuits like Silverstone, Brands hatch, Donington but are a few quid cheaper at Mallory or Anglesey for eg. A set of tyres will probably last 4 meetings and cost about £120each for a Clio at a guess.

You could look at the Puma Cup - they race in the Modern Classics series rather than Tin Tops but can probably race in both. Cars are available to buy fior about £4500?

ETA - Try this - looks a decent car, and you couldn't build it for that, I doubt
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/90603/20...

I'm sure others will be along soon to promote their series but try to go along to a few race meetings and talk to people in the paddock to gauge what the racing is really like. If you ring up the CSCC office they may be able to offer you a free ticket and you can then meet the team and talk to them, they are very helpful. If you are around on the weekend of 7/8 April CSCC have a meeting at Snetterton that weekend. I cant remember what day the tin Tops are racing but I am racing on the Saturday in a Caterham 7 (first time, gulp) so feel free to find me and chat (car 36).

Good luck, and let us know what you decide.

Andy

Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 27th March 16:34

[eastlmark]

bare in mind that CSCC races are 40 mins including a pit stop- a lot longer than most race series and can take it out of a single driver and your car. You can of course run with a second driver and share the costs and have less time in the car. Think the tin top series is probably the most competitive and hardest racing on the CSCC race bill. great paddock atmosphere though and quite relaxed.

[User name]

Thanks Andy, great info there - good point about pre-prepped vs DIY.

Sounds good although the event entry fee is a lot more than I was expecting if im honest...

And yes 40 mins is quite a shift, I remember when I was carting a 20 minute test session and my neck was buggered.

[andy97]

User name said:

Thanks Andy, great info there - good point about pre-prepped vs DIY.

Sounds good although the event entry fee is a lot more than I was expecting if im honest...

And yes 40 mins is quite a shift, I remember when I was carting a 20 minute test session and my neck was buggered.

I think the entry fees are fairly competitive for the track time. 750mc Roadsports is probably a little cheaper, but not much. Circuit costs are pretty fixed and drive the entry fees.

Sharing with another driver obviously shares costs (and you can probably charge a "hire fee") and cuts down the length of race issue; it also gives the opportunity to share and learn from a more experienced driver. If you talk to the the CSCC office then they may know of people looking for a shared drive, I have done that in the past.

[User name]

True, for the amount of actual track time that's not too mad.

OK so lets say I want to prep my own car instead of buying one, I have ordered the "lets race" or whatever pack from the MSA but that'll probably not arrive till after easter.

What are the basic requirements for a track car? (off the top of my head, but what else?)
- MSA/FIA weld-in cage
- Battery cut-off
- suitable seat & Harness
- extinguisher with external activation
- suitable tyres
- lots of silly stickers

[geeks]

Entry fees are what they are, they differ club to club but the tune of a tenner here, twenty quid there, not really enough to make one stand out over another, mainly because track time is a fixed cost to most clubs!

Depending on what you want to race depends on what you will spend and which wil work out cheaper, in many (but not all) it is cheaper to buy than build but do budget extra for a car that may not have seen use for a season and also for any out of date things, belts, seats, extinguishers, brakes, tyres, any regulation changes for series or championship etc

[frodo_monkey]

User name said:

True, for the amount of actual track time that's not too mad.

OK so lets say I want to prep my own car instead of buying one, I have ordered the "lets race" or whatever pack from the MSA but that'll probably not arrive till after easter.

What are the basic requirements for a track car? (off the top of my head, but what else?)
- MSA/FIA weld-in cage
- Battery cut-off
- suitable seat & Harness
- extinguisher with external activation
- suitable tyres
- lots of silly stickers

You’re best off reading the ‘Blue Book’ on the MSA site - there is a section on Competitor Safety and one on Circuit Racing which will be a good starter, sections K and Q respectively.

[Thurbs]

I started off racing with a Clio 182 in the 750mc Clio 182 Championship, Roadsports as well as CSCC TinTops and New Millenium.

I echo what others have said, it is far cheaper to buy a car than build one. I went with a clio as I thought it was reasonably quick out the box and cheap. In hindsight a Civic would have been better as you can add power quite easily where as the clio is much harder and more expensive to do so.

This may also help regarding the Clio: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Here is somthing I wrote earlier:

Step 1 - get the gear and licence

- Buy this, get your medical and learn about flags etc: http://shop.msauk.org/product_details.asp?id=4023
- When you are ready, book and pass your ARDS: http://www.msvtrackdays.com/car/products/ards/ (others also do it)
- Buy hans, helmet, gloves and suit. I also wear nomex undercrakers but it is not mandatory.

Step 2 - get the car ready

- MSA compliant roll cage (6 point bolt in is fine) but they have rules about bends and so forth so if you are unsure, ask the manufacturer.
- Plumbed in fire extinguisher. Min 1 in engine bay pointing at the fuel rail, 1 pointing at the driver (now need to be in date)
- Cut of switch which must kill everything including the engine when it is running.
- Remove the steering lock (or drive it to the circuit with tax & MOT)
- Get a seat (now they need to be in date) and belts (which also need to be in date)
- Make sure the fog light, side light and brake light work
- Replace the boot and bonnet locks with external pins. I would also disable door locks.
- Fit tow loops front and rear. Recommended two at each end and they should be metal ones but they are not mandatory.

To be competitive, you will also need to:

- Upgrade the springs and dampers. Don’t bother with 4 way adjustment, single way would be fine.
- Put on some 1b/1c tyres (I use Nankang AR-1 fpr dry & NS-2R for wet but the NS-2R could do both no problem)
- Put in some new disks and Carbon Lorane brake pads (don’t bother with bigger brakes until you add power, the CL pads will never fade)
- Set up the corner weights & geo (first try parallel tracking, camber 3.5deg front 1deg rear, caster as long wheelbase as possible, damper softest front, hardest rear) then adjust to suit
- For any novice out there, don’t bother with anything else. Get fast like this and then upgrade.

Step 3 - get the driver ready

- Every £ spent here is worth double against spending it on the car.
- Watch Driver61 and other proper videos, not track day warriors
- Get instruction, not 10 minutes from a circuit instructor, get one for a whole day and listen to him/her and repeat.
- Book track days and test days and get quick. Not track day quick, properly quick. You should aim to be beating times done by cars slower than you but not necessarily beating cars in your class. Check out times of previous races.
- If you can’t do this, it is not the cars fault!! Racing is a whole new level from track days.

Step 4 - Go for it

- Join a club
- Sign up for a series / championship
- Put in your number
- Get ready to race!!

There is a whole other list of stuff which needs to happen on race day, but that is it for now.

These other threads may also help:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Finally, concider doing a arrive and drive before taking the plunge. Feel free to come and talk to me this weekend at Snetterton. One of my friends is racing for the first time in tintops with a Clio 182, another in the New Millenium with a Holden GTS and me probably with a brand new engine after I did the crank yesterday

[Sigmamark7]

User name said:

OK so lets say I want to prep my own car instead of buying one, I have ordered the "lets race" or whatever pack from the MSA but that'll probably not arrive till after easter

If you want to prep your own car, unless you have deep pockets, be prepared to borrow heavily, or not race this year.
I know it can be done cheaply, but if you want reliability, buy right and buy once is the right adage. My Clio 182 was originally a road car, which I turned into a track car. I then turned it into a race car. That wasn’t cheap, but neither was the car very good as a racing Car!! I went off racing my Radical for a couple of years (which was prohibitively expensive), so I sold that at the end of last year and started to properly prepare the Clio for this season. New gearbox with Gripper Diff, uprated engine with ITBs, cams, Omex, oil tank etc. replacement SD Cage, new AST suspension, rebushed everything, decent pads, plastic windows etc. has left no change from over £10k, on top of the car which was probably worth £4k to start with.
I now have a well prepared car, but it’s unlikely to be a race or championship winner, even if I up my own game and if I wanted to sell it (which I really don’t), it would probably be worth £7k at best!
Would I do it again - not a chance, I’d go and buy a well prepared one with some race history and spend the winter tucked up inside where it’s warm.
However you choose to go racing, just do it. Club Racing isn’t BTCC, and most people work to pay for their racing, so tend to look after their own and their competitors cars whilst out on track.

[User name]

Thanks Thurbs, perfect info, just what i was looking for.

So I think my course of action should be to get on some track days in my 182, get some track time in.
Get my ARDS test done, and start to either prep my car or buy one.

If I'm comfortable then enter later in the year for the last few rounds, or wait till next season so I'm happy and fresh for the full season in 2019.

I'm going to take up the offer of a (few) pub group meets, as well as attend a few events this year to watch how it all works.

[jrallye]

Not usually one to revive old threads but this seems of high enough quality to make it okay

Anyone else who's taken part in the tin tops series how do you fund the events, through salaries, sponsors, savings

From the outside it seems cheap enough but I'm just curious as to how much do people take race in the series roughly spend in the first year and subsequent years of tin tops

Sorry again for the revival

[chunder27]

Staggered that the entry fee is roughly 385. That is really very high.

[MG CHRIS]

Its not high at all but it line with track time. 40 min race with 30 main quality. Consider most sprint race format of 15min qual and x2 15 main races are usually between 300-350 it really isn't high at all.

[ChevronB19]

That entry fee is cheap when considering the amount of track time.

I race in historics, and it’s about 280 for 15 mins practice and 15/20 mins race, maybe a third more for a double header. Some historic clubs are up to 1k for a 40 minute race.

I spend about 3k per season to do 2x single races plus 2x double headers, including fuel for car and road car, hotels etc. All funded by me. It’s not cheap, but it makes me feel alive. A full season would be about 8k without consideration of consumables or damage to body or engine. For example, I hit the wall at Oulton, minor bump, in an Anglia, and it cost 1200. I also holed a piston at Silverstone, that was 500 with us doing the work ourselves.

[Robmarriott]

andy97 said:

However, I would always suggest that it is cheaper and easier to buy a car that is already prepped for racing than to try to convert yourself. People think its cheaper to convert, but generally it isn't and it takes far longer than you think. If you buy a car then it will usually be already set up, too.

Absolutely this - I built a Clio 182 for the CSCC Pre-05 Touring Car championship and including the price of the car (but not including suit, helmet, hans, boots etc) the tally was about £12k.

There were other cars available at the time for about £6-7k with a few bumps and scrapes on them, which mine ended up with.

The only advantage of building your own is you can pick exactly what parts you want on it and if you do all the spanner work, you'll know it inside out before it breaks.

If I was doing it again, I'd buy one already built, give it a decent check all over and replace any bits I didn't like (like the seat, for example). The only thing you'd need to be careful with is the rules on roll cages in Clios changed in 2017 (I think it was 2017, may have been 2018) and the earlier ones are no longer approved, if the front leg of the cage doesn't go through the dash, you'll need a new cage, which is more expense.

[ribiero]

I bought a Clio for cscc/tdt/roadsports use this year + next. It had over double the £ put into it that I paid for it and it's really only wanting a plated diff. It was built well, ready to go and cost me less than the money i'd set aside building an enduroka.

Never planned to get a Clio but plans changed. But bang for buck they're pretty good and there's far more supply than demand for 2nd hand racecars so prices are low. (you'd probably only be able to build + sell a enduroka or c1 for profit)

Of course if I had more money or wanted to get to the front i'd get a civic/beemer or something quicker etc etc.. but tbh i'm better putting the money into making myself quick as fwd on track's a bit new to me!! Originally I thought about starting by arrive and drive, but I need seat time and arranging extra testing outside race weekend isnt value for money. What Thurbs said above is very very good.

[df76]

chunder27 said:

Staggered that the entry fee is roughly 385. That is really very high.

As others have said, the entry fee is a bargain compared with most other series. And you can split the costs between two drivers, makes it very accessible to a lot of competitors. The grid sizes speak for themelves.

Friend raced with them last year for a single round, and has signed up to most events this year. Seemed a really good mix and all very welcoming. Club seems really good as well.

[jrallye]

Well great response! Thanks everyone!

Best bet seems to be save up a little expect to pay around £5k upwards for a pre-built car with a guess of around £2k for consumables plus repairs then I suppose you can spend as much or as little as you want a year on the events you go to

[chunder27]

For me, that is crazy money considering that can get you hours of track time in non asphalt series.

But I guess if people feel they are only interested in circuit racing, that is the price they have to pay.

I would never even dream of it, speed events, even rallying is far cheaper.

Personally I feel that is daylight robbery, but that's me.