Devils Advocate
Discussion
(asbestos underwear on)
Provoking a discussion.......
I know no-one wants to say this, least of all me as I desparately want a Tuscan, but who thinks TVR will NOT come to US at all.
Lotus has just announced a federalized Elise, but they are having to invest 3 million quid to do it, and they have the manufacturing capacity to meet the expected US sales numbers.
TVR will have to invest significantly more than that to move to the US. They don't have any dealers here and no manufacturing here either.... and they have to get the cars done too.
Anyone else think we are waiting on a "tomorrow never comes" promise ?
Please convince me otherwise, as I am wavering in my belief that they will ever make it
(asbestos underwear off)
Provoking a discussion.......
I know no-one wants to say this, least of all me as I desparately want a Tuscan, but who thinks TVR will NOT come to US at all.
Lotus has just announced a federalized Elise, but they are having to invest 3 million quid to do it, and they have the manufacturing capacity to meet the expected US sales numbers.
TVR will have to invest significantly more than that to move to the US. They don't have any dealers here and no manufacturing here either.... and they have to get the cars done too.
Anyone else think we are waiting on a "tomorrow never comes" promise ?
Please convince me otherwise, as I am wavering in my belief that they will ever make it
(asbestos underwear off)
Three million is a lot of $$ but certainly not the biggest obstacle to coming to the USA.
As for the dealer network, it seems there are a number of Qvale, Panoz, etc. dealerships around that are able to piggyback on the Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Lambo trade.
Therefore, I don't see the dealer network to be a big issue.
As the cost of complying with safety and emissions becomes onerous around the world, all auto manufacturers will need to engineer their cars for the global marketplace--especially upscale cars like TVR.
If TVR is going to succeed, they must expand their vision beyond the UK. That means engineering their cars for LHD, worldwide emission requirements, worldwide safety requirements (even if PW hates ABS!). TVR has come too far not to distribute worldwide--the are no longer Marcos or Morgan--they make their own engines for Gods sake!
Money--no problem.
Dealership--no problem
Laws such as safety and emissions--TVR is going to need to face reality and expand their vision
As for the dealer network, it seems there are a number of Qvale, Panoz, etc. dealerships around that are able to piggyback on the Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Lambo trade.
Therefore, I don't see the dealer network to be a big issue.
As the cost of complying with safety and emissions becomes onerous around the world, all auto manufacturers will need to engineer their cars for the global marketplace--especially upscale cars like TVR.
If TVR is going to succeed, they must expand their vision beyond the UK. That means engineering their cars for LHD, worldwide emission requirements, worldwide safety requirements (even if PW hates ABS!). TVR has come too far not to distribute worldwide--the are no longer Marcos or Morgan--they make their own engines for Gods sake!
Money--no problem.
Dealership--no problem
Laws such as safety and emissions--TVR is going to need to face reality and expand their vision
Bear in mind that it won't be TVR Engineering UK that make the cars. As detailed in that article in the Detroit News, the cars will be made in Brazil under the control of a company catering for the world market.
It's not a case of the guys in Blackpool gearing up for this job, it's a matter of getting the Brazilian operation up and running. The first building blocks were actually put in place two years ago (you can still find articles on the Brazilian version of AltaVista referring to this).
It doesn't look like cars will be rolling off the production line within months, but I believe we will see cars worldwide within 2-3 years.
It's not a case of the guys in Blackpool gearing up for this job, it's a matter of getting the Brazilian operation up and running. The first building blocks were actually put in place two years ago (you can still find articles on the Brazilian version of AltaVista referring to this).
It doesn't look like cars will be rolling off the production line within months, but I believe we will see cars worldwide within 2-3 years.
quote:
If TVR is going to succeed, they must expand their vision beyond the UK.
Perhaps TVR consider it's not necessary to export; they might think they have already succeeded as a 'small sporst car manufacturer'.
I don't think PW is a bulimic seeking a ' worldwide market domination'.
He may be already satisfied with the current achievments of his company.
quote:
The quality of the cars is simply not good enough for the US market. After the first year, TVR's reputation will be rock-bottom and sales will dry up.
You're not listening are you Alex? TVR UK won't be building the cars, a new outfit in South America will. It won't be a case of trying to improve quality of an existing operation, it will be a matter of ensuring high quality from the off. It's not simply a matter of reproducing the Bristol Avenue factory in Brazil, it's a new operation with new people, new facilities, new start...
You've become a real knocker of TVR since you sold your Griff...
>> Edited by PetrolTed (moderator) on Wednesday 20th February 11:08
Right, Let me get this straight. TVR are going to make an assult on the world sports car market. But there not going to do what nearly killed them in the 70's by making them in Blackpool. There going to make them in Brazil! Why Brazil? Surely that will be harder to control quality!!! Will they still be handbuilt? Same way as in B. Ave but just to a highter standard?? And I take it that it will follow the same sort of thing as in Malaysia, and be called TVR Brazil!! Who's funding it? Surely PW can't be expanding? ANd on that note, does TVR fund the malaysian factory??
I hardly rate as an expert, but the advantage to Brazil (or Malaysia) is that the labor rate is a fraction of Europe or North America. The quality will be there, the profit margins greater making them somewhere else 
As for Thom's comment regarding TVR being content with the UK, I can hardly believe that makes good business sense--what happens if gas taxes are raised through the roof? Safety rules put TVR in a corner? Downturn in the UK economy while there are opportunities in Australia/New Zealand--let alone Canada and the USA?
TVR needs to scale up so that they are not so dependent on one area for their sales. If I'm correct, aren't the vast majority of TVR sales in the London area--or at the least the southern part of the UK? It is a very rare company that is able to stick to one strategy and not change. Companies need to evolve and TVR's thoughts about a factory in Brazil reflect that reality! I hope TVR succeeds beyond their wildest imagination in their Brazil venture.
As for Thom's comment regarding TVR being content with the UK, I can hardly believe that makes good business sense--what happens if gas taxes are raised through the roof? Safety rules put TVR in a corner? Downturn in the UK economy while there are opportunities in Australia/New Zealand--let alone Canada and the USA?
TVR needs to scale up so that they are not so dependent on one area for their sales. If I'm correct, aren't the vast majority of TVR sales in the London area--or at the least the southern part of the UK? It is a very rare company that is able to stick to one strategy and not change. Companies need to evolve and TVR's thoughts about a factory in Brazil reflect that reality! I hope TVR succeeds beyond their wildest imagination in their Brazil venture.
jpf hit the nail on the head. TVR is WAY too reliant on the UK market. I think I remember PW statng this in an interview he did in Autocar last year. It makes good business sense. 4 years ago, TVR sold almost 2000 cars, and now they are hovering at around 1200 and that's about all they can handle. The cars are SO labor intensive to make, and I think this is deliberate. People are pretty easy to fire and hire, but expensive machines aren't. But they can't rely on the UK market only...
In order for them to move to another market, they simply have no option but to consider building them outside of Blackpool. Brazil is as good a place as anywhere. Lots of manufacturers have plants in South America. Quality is something they have to monitor more closely at the plant. I don't think they could reproduce Bristol Avenue anywhere else. There aren't enough large rocks lying around to hold the moulds together !!
Lets not overlook the dealer network too much. There are 2 kinds of delears over here in the US selling performance cars. Actual dealers (Ferrari, etc) and then there are like performance car warehouses in Florida and California that just sell the cars and leave the service to the dealer networks. TVR must have a dedicated dealer network focused on TVR. Performance cars, by their very nature, are going to be more niggly than an Audi for example, so a dealer that can take care of them properly is very important. Not only that, TVR is not going to be as expensive as these other performance cars (if they follow the same pattern as the UK) and therefore, the people that buy them are going to want dealer support.
I think they have a terrific opportunity over here. I just wish they would say something about it. I wonder how much response they have had from this side of the Atlantic to Swordfish and the SCI article and the various 2 inch columns in Road and Track, Car and Driver that have appeared since Swordfish appeared. There was nothing at the Detroit Show to even compare with a Tuscan S.....
I have a buddy that used to play NFL ball, and when I showed the SCI article to him, he knew about 30 players that would want one !!!
Ramble over....
In order for them to move to another market, they simply have no option but to consider building them outside of Blackpool. Brazil is as good a place as anywhere. Lots of manufacturers have plants in South America. Quality is something they have to monitor more closely at the plant. I don't think they could reproduce Bristol Avenue anywhere else. There aren't enough large rocks lying around to hold the moulds together !!
Lets not overlook the dealer network too much. There are 2 kinds of delears over here in the US selling performance cars. Actual dealers (Ferrari, etc) and then there are like performance car warehouses in Florida and California that just sell the cars and leave the service to the dealer networks. TVR must have a dedicated dealer network focused on TVR. Performance cars, by their very nature, are going to be more niggly than an Audi for example, so a dealer that can take care of them properly is very important. Not only that, TVR is not going to be as expensive as these other performance cars (if they follow the same pattern as the UK) and therefore, the people that buy them are going to want dealer support.
I think they have a terrific opportunity over here. I just wish they would say something about it. I wonder how much response they have had from this side of the Atlantic to Swordfish and the SCI article and the various 2 inch columns in Road and Track, Car and Driver that have appeared since Swordfish appeared. There was nothing at the Detroit Show to even compare with a Tuscan S.....
I have a buddy that used to play NFL ball, and when I showed the SCI article to him, he knew about 30 players that would want one !!!
Ramble over....
quote:
I know, but the quality of the cars is simply not good enough for the US market. Wherever they are made.
So if they were built under licence by Porsche or BMW in Germany or by Toyota in Japan to the exacting Lexus standards they would still not be good enough for the US market?
Get real Alex. Have you experienced the build quality of some of the American cars?
Don't slam Alex too much. Build quality is important and *could* be an issue with TVR in the USA. It really depends on who your selling to. If a company does a huge promotion to sell tons of cars quality is important. But if your low volume selling super wonderful pleasure crafts it won't be as critcal. I would be willing to put up with the problems described in PH forums. Most diehard enthuesists WILL put up with problems. Thats part of the joy. The car needs you.
I can't help but wonder how Qvale, Panoz, and Maseratti are doing in the USA. If they can make it TVR can to.(TVR's are so much better
)
TVR has been changing in recent years and I think they are better than ever. Expansion in Europe and USA seems logical.
TVR should also consider getting a race car prepared for the various racing series in the usa to help promote. There doesn't necesarily need to be a Factory team but a car that race teams can buy. Like the ORECA Viper Team.
I have to admit TVR may be better off focusing any potential USA resources on Europe, Asia, and Middle East. The safty and emission rules in the USA are extensive and could require alot of research and design just to comply with. Why not hit the easier markets first than if a booty is reaped go to the USA.
I can't help but wonder how Qvale, Panoz, and Maseratti are doing in the USA. If they can make it TVR can to.(TVR's are so much better
) TVR has been changing in recent years and I think they are better than ever. Expansion in Europe and USA seems logical.
TVR should also consider getting a race car prepared for the various racing series in the usa to help promote. There doesn't necesarily need to be a Factory team but a car that race teams can buy. Like the ORECA Viper Team.
I have to admit TVR may be better off focusing any potential USA resources on Europe, Asia, and Middle East. The safty and emission rules in the USA are extensive and could require alot of research and design just to comply with. Why not hit the easier markets first than if a booty is reaped go to the USA.
Well, the other thing that we haven't really touched on is that TVR may be designing a new car that will be designed and launched in both the US and the UK that will be specifically designed with all the federal emissions and standards adhered to.... especially if they are talking 2 to 3 years. Tuscan will be 5 or 6 years old by then, right?
Myself, I think the Tamora will be modified because the shape seems easier to do (higher headlights), but then they bring in the new "federalized" TVR model.
Just a thought......but a horrible one. Tuscan for me please.....
As for Qvale, Panoz and Maserati. The first 2 sell very small numbers, and Maserati isn't available until next month, but they are aiming for something like 4,000 a year (which is 4 times the Ferrari numbers) in the US.
Myself, I think the Tamora will be modified because the shape seems easier to do (higher headlights), but then they bring in the new "federalized" TVR model.
Just a thought......but a horrible one. Tuscan for me please.....
As for Qvale, Panoz and Maserati. The first 2 sell very small numbers, and Maserati isn't available until next month, but they are aiming for something like 4,000 a year (which is 4 times the Ferrari numbers) in the US.
PetrolTed,
as I quite clearly don't spend as much time as you do on this I get the feeling a occaisionally miss a thread... I've read about the Brazilian factory, and I trust your optimism about the states, but I seem to remember you saying that TVR was going to come out with some announcement in January... did anything come from that?
Steve
as I quite clearly don't spend as much time as you do on this I get the feeling a occaisionally miss a thread... I've read about the Brazilian factory, and I trust your optimism about the states, but I seem to remember you saying that TVR was going to come out with some announcement in January... did anything come from that?
Steve
BTW, the New York Times article will be one year old February 23, 2002.
I went to the local Lotus dealer who informs me that he has taken 40 deposits on the Elise--without engine specifics, a three season car (here in the upper midwest)or, a definitive timeline (18-24 months).
TVR would have more business than they would know what to do with--they very conceivably could outsell Ferrari or Aston on their first go. What a nice problem to have--demand outstripping supply!
I went to the local Lotus dealer who informs me that he has taken 40 deposits on the Elise--without engine specifics, a three season car (here in the upper midwest)or, a definitive timeline (18-24 months).
TVR would have more business than they would know what to do with--they very conceivably could outsell Ferrari or Aston on their first go. What a nice problem to have--demand outstripping supply!
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