3000M starting issue. Any electricians able to offer advice?
Discussion
I’m really hoping someone can help to restore my sanity and apologies for the long post but I’m now officially fed up!
Reversed my car (3000M) out of the garage a few weeks ago. Went to start it again that day and it was as if the battery was dead and it struggled to turn over and then just stopped trying. My neighbour and I charged it up and as soon as I turn the key it made the slightest of effort to start and then just went as if the battery was dead again! We thought the starter may be stuck on and bump started the car. Runs fine once started.
However, each turn of the key, no luck. I assumed the starter was faulty and purchased a high torque starter. Went through the effort of skinning my knuckles changing it all just to find the same problem after all that work. Tried to spin the engine again but it was still like the battery had no power. Couldn’t figure it out at all as battery had been fine but I thought it was an older battery so replaced with a new one! Same issue! Bump start no problem, all other electrics working fine just would crank a little and then appear dead. Lights on my charger imply that’s after turning the key the battery has no charge but it’s a Halfords charger and my neighbour is not convinced these lights are accurate.
I’ve now replaced all positive and negative cables including running an earth cable directly to one of the starter motor bolts as I assumed it may be struggling to get a good earth through just the bolts/touching the gear box (assume that’s how it normally gets it’s earth)
Charged the battery and it spins a little better for about two seconds and then appears to just die again. Today, after charging the battery for a while I managed to start it on the key so immediately took it for a good hours run on the dual carriageway. Gauge in car was always in the green at about 14v and I hoped the run would fully charge the battery.
Pulled in at the garage to fill up with petrol and as soon as I turned the key to leave, nothing but a faint effort to start. Bump started and got home. After parking up in the garage at home I turn the key and yet again a poor effort at trying to start and it sounds like the battery is flat again yet the meter still reads 13.1v.
I cannot fathom what to try next. It’s been perfect until this point which started a few weeks back so can anyone offer any hint of advice to try and get me going on the turn of the key again as I can’t only go to places and petrol stations which are on a downhill for bump starting!!!
Thanks in advance for any help.
Reversed my car (3000M) out of the garage a few weeks ago. Went to start it again that day and it was as if the battery was dead and it struggled to turn over and then just stopped trying. My neighbour and I charged it up and as soon as I turn the key it made the slightest of effort to start and then just went as if the battery was dead again! We thought the starter may be stuck on and bump started the car. Runs fine once started.
However, each turn of the key, no luck. I assumed the starter was faulty and purchased a high torque starter. Went through the effort of skinning my knuckles changing it all just to find the same problem after all that work. Tried to spin the engine again but it was still like the battery had no power. Couldn’t figure it out at all as battery had been fine but I thought it was an older battery so replaced with a new one! Same issue! Bump start no problem, all other electrics working fine just would crank a little and then appear dead. Lights on my charger imply that’s after turning the key the battery has no charge but it’s a Halfords charger and my neighbour is not convinced these lights are accurate.
I’ve now replaced all positive and negative cables including running an earth cable directly to one of the starter motor bolts as I assumed it may be struggling to get a good earth through just the bolts/touching the gear box (assume that’s how it normally gets it’s earth)
Charged the battery and it spins a little better for about two seconds and then appears to just die again. Today, after charging the battery for a while I managed to start it on the key so immediately took it for a good hours run on the dual carriageway. Gauge in car was always in the green at about 14v and I hoped the run would fully charge the battery.
Pulled in at the garage to fill up with petrol and as soon as I turned the key to leave, nothing but a faint effort to start. Bump started and got home. After parking up in the garage at home I turn the key and yet again a poor effort at trying to start and it sounds like the battery is flat again yet the meter still reads 13.1v.
I cannot fathom what to try next. It’s been perfect until this point which started a few weeks back so can anyone offer any hint of advice to try and get me going on the turn of the key again as I can’t only go to places and petrol stations which are on a downhill for bump starting!!!
Thanks in advance for any help.
Replacement battery was 50ah and 500cca so better than the one it’s been running with for several years!
Last night after I’d posted I went out and tested the battery voltage again which read 13v. I decided to tighten up the earth post clamp some more and hey presto it started about 5 times I a row, running without issue. Checked voltage and it was at 12.9v. Thought I’d leave it until morning as I can take it for a run and went in feeling happy.
This morning I’ve come back to it and before trying to start checked voltage which was still at 12.9v. Jumped in and therefore expected to start up and drive off and one faint effort to start followed by nothing! Tested the voltage and it was zero! Carried out jobs in my daily driver, came home, unhooked the earth cable and tested the voltage again and it read 12.9v!! It’s had no charge in that time or anything so why read zero across the terminals I just don’t understand. However, once I tried to start the car it struggled to try starting it again.
I’ve just put an old battery back on and again a couple of faint efforts but nothing in terms of starting, although I wasn’t expecting much as it hadn’t been charged and is the original I took off. I did run around to see if the earth cable was getting warm and it may be fractionally but not hot. I’ve got a spare cable so I’ll make myself a new one just in case but in the meantime any new advice will be gratefully received.
I’m not ruling out that keep trying this may have ruined the new battery too but I can’t keep buying new batteries in the hope it sorts itself eventually! I must be missing something obvious.
Headlights still coming on without a problem and don’t seem to flicker or anything.
Thanks all.
Last night after I’d posted I went out and tested the battery voltage again which read 13v. I decided to tighten up the earth post clamp some more and hey presto it started about 5 times I a row, running without issue. Checked voltage and it was at 12.9v. Thought I’d leave it until morning as I can take it for a run and went in feeling happy.
This morning I’ve come back to it and before trying to start checked voltage which was still at 12.9v. Jumped in and therefore expected to start up and drive off and one faint effort to start followed by nothing! Tested the voltage and it was zero! Carried out jobs in my daily driver, came home, unhooked the earth cable and tested the voltage again and it read 12.9v!! It’s had no charge in that time or anything so why read zero across the terminals I just don’t understand. However, once I tried to start the car it struggled to try starting it again.
I’ve just put an old battery back on and again a couple of faint efforts but nothing in terms of starting, although I wasn’t expecting much as it hadn’t been charged and is the original I took off. I did run around to see if the earth cable was getting warm and it may be fractionally but not hot. I’ve got a spare cable so I’ll make myself a new one just in case but in the meantime any new advice will be gratefully received.
I’m not ruling out that keep trying this may have ruined the new battery too but I can’t keep buying new batteries in the hope it sorts itself eventually! I must be missing something obvious.
Headlights still coming on without a problem and don’t seem to flicker or anything.
Thanks all.
One thing I have just noticed is the earth cable I took off which looked a bit suspect was thicker than the Halfords replacement leads. Could this be the problem that the cable can’t cope? I’d have thought given it was sold for this purpose it should be fine. You can tell I’m clutching at straws now!
FlyingFish874 said:
One thing I have just noticed is the earth cable I took off which looked a bit suspect was thicker than the Halfords replacement leads. Could this be the problem that the cable can’t cope? I’d have thought given it was sold for this purpose it should be fine. You can tell I’m clutching at straws now!
I hadn't picked up that you had already changed battery for a known one......If your car isn't cranking than it can only be 1 of 4 things..
1. Battery voltage
2. Poor Earth or live continuity IE a bad connection or High resistance in a component.
3. too much resistance in cable IE Old and broken down
3. Solenoid.. Especially if an external solenoid Though you may have bypassed with a new starter.
You have already traced loose connections so I would suggest tracing more. It maybe that they need cleaning more thoroughly
I always crimp my own cables with a hydraulic crimping machine and I use very heavy cable. You can get professionally crimped cables cut to length.
I also use 8 / 10mm main ends on 8 / 10mm Bolts which I weld to the chassis close to the main juice points to ensure minimal risk of earth resistance.
On an essex engine I also usually throw away the big old starter motors and use reduction type for more exhaust room but also because they take less current. It may be that you have V High resistance in your starter motor. They are a pig to remove and often left to the last job because people don't want to remove them.. !! If you are confident that you have checked all connections that A Starter motor at fault is most likely issue. If you have replaced the starter then don't just assume it is good.. ?? A reduction starter should throw the engine over compared to original.
Also Check your Alternator connections and the plug and spade connections at the rear of the alternator.
You may also have a Short in the cars electrical system permanently flattening battery.. Are you running an Ammeter or Volt meter?? an Ammeter will show a dead short and drain whereas a voltmeter just show a slowly dropping voltage in the battery as you are driving along...
For lots of reasons above I also always fit battery isolator switches to my cars.
RE Battery... Did you replace with Brand new OR just another battery??
A car should run at about 14.4 volts on a multimeter when the car is running and charging. If you are not seeing much above 12 - 13 then battery is not charging.
I like WOSP Starters
Edited by V8Tolerancefit on Sunday 5th March 10:32
Edited by V8Tolerancefit on Sunday 5th March 10:35
Edited by V8Tolerancefit on Tuesday 7th March 09:52
Many thanks for coming back with the advice again.
I’ve gone through the pain of removing the manifold and replacing the starter motor with one from Andrew gray which looks original but is a high torque version. When I do occasionally get a good turn from the ignition it seems to start with little effort. It’s just that part I seem to be struggling with.
The earths do seem to attach to quite small points on the chassis which only have a 10mm nut on them so the fixing point stud is thinner than the holes I have in the end of the earth wires. Hence they are clamped between two 10mm nuts and washers.
I think I’ll see what I can do to clean everything again and improve the connections. There has to be something simple. As I say, headlights all work fine so there is a good circuit but may be just not good enough for starting.
I’ll keep going!
I’ve gone through the pain of removing the manifold and replacing the starter motor with one from Andrew gray which looks original but is a high torque version. When I do occasionally get a good turn from the ignition it seems to start with little effort. It’s just that part I seem to be struggling with.
The earths do seem to attach to quite small points on the chassis which only have a 10mm nut on them so the fixing point stud is thinner than the holes I have in the end of the earth wires. Hence they are clamped between two 10mm nuts and washers.
I think I’ll see what I can do to clean everything again and improve the connections. There has to be something simple. As I say, headlights all work fine so there is a good circuit but may be just not good enough for starting.
I’ll keep going!
No luck. Still just the same. Have checked continuity and I can’t see any issues at all but maybe I’ve missed something. Battery voltage seems ok, earths seem ok, solenoid is new on starter not the old remote type and when starter does go on rare occasions it does it very well. Will need to just start from the top again and work through unless there are any other ideas.
Should have said in previous post that when it does run it’s fine and the alternator output seems fine and is over the 14v as suggested.
Thanks all.
Should have said in previous post that when it does run it’s fine and the alternator output seems fine and is over the 14v as suggested.
Thanks all.
Edited by FlyingFish874 on Sunday 5th March 14:23
We tried to test the key ignition/key and even bypassed it by going direct from battery to the starter. At that point I thought it was the earth to the starter as a jump lead from the battery to starter seemed to sort it but I’ve now replaced that earths lead for a new one. This makes me think logically that the problem is almost elsewhere as I can’t see what else there is to check. However everything else appears to work fine!!
Thanks both. The thought of taking everything apart again to get the starter out isn’t what I hoped for but I can see maybe it is the only option. What are the chances of two starters going wrong though as it’s the same thing that happened to the original one on the car and the replacement.
May be I need to find a local auto electrician to take a look as it’s just not my strong point even though I’m trying!
I’ll have a think where to go next. Really appreciate your input in trying to help.
May be I need to find a local auto electrician to take a look as it’s just not my strong point even though I’m trying!
I’ll have a think where to go next. Really appreciate your input in trying to help.
You've already done the first smart step and replace the battery.
One day I decided to get a top of the line battery to forever eliminate the battery as a factor in future electric problems.
I had none at the time - everything worked perfectly.
It wasn't broke - but I decided to fix it anyway.
This new battery was also the most expensive one I could find under the theory of you get what you pay for.
A few months went by and started experiencing the similar symptoms as described.
Very intermittent.
New starter - worked great! All fixed!
No.
Wiring, ignition switch - all that.
Each fix seemed to solve the problem for awhile.
Even took it to the local Moggie importer/shop - closest thing I could find that might understand a TVR and British electrical systems.
If they can't figure it out .....
No.
Battery tested out as perfect.
After many weeks of trauma - it was finally figured out when by chance the battery didn't test out and a much. much closer examination revealed that the world's best battery had a faulty cell. Intermittently working - then not. Testing perfect - and then by chance - finally not.
Understood the battery has been replaced.
May wish to consider one more try by installing a relatively fresh battery from a currently operational vehicle.
One day I decided to get a top of the line battery to forever eliminate the battery as a factor in future electric problems.
I had none at the time - everything worked perfectly.
It wasn't broke - but I decided to fix it anyway.
This new battery was also the most expensive one I could find under the theory of you get what you pay for.
A few months went by and started experiencing the similar symptoms as described.
Very intermittent.
New starter - worked great! All fixed!
No.
Wiring, ignition switch - all that.
Each fix seemed to solve the problem for awhile.
Even took it to the local Moggie importer/shop - closest thing I could find that might understand a TVR and British electrical systems.
If they can't figure it out .....
No.
Battery tested out as perfect.
After many weeks of trauma - it was finally figured out when by chance the battery didn't test out and a much. much closer examination revealed that the world's best battery had a faulty cell. Intermittently working - then not. Testing perfect - and then by chance - finally not.
Understood the battery has been replaced.
May wish to consider one more try by installing a relatively fresh battery from a currently operational vehicle.
Edited by tyracious on Sunday 5th March 17:37
May be your right. Early on in the testing I did get one out of another vehicle and it didn’t solve the problem. Since then I’ve replaced all of the battery leads so just may be it might work again now so I’ll add it to this list to try again.
Car is a 74 year car.
I’m amazed how originally it sat there for most of the winter and started fine as I got it out of the garage so any fault has developed over the 20ft I moved it!
I really thought I’d solved it last night when it started several times. I did have the battery on charge so may be it had enough in it to do that but then died overnight. I then couldn’t start it again this morning. Will leave on charge overnight and see if it then works. If so, but fails again soon after may be it is just the battery. Perhaps I could just take it to Halfords and ask them to check that?
Thanks once again.
Car is a 74 year car.
I’m amazed how originally it sat there for most of the winter and started fine as I got it out of the garage so any fault has developed over the 20ft I moved it!
I really thought I’d solved it last night when it started several times. I did have the battery on charge so may be it had enough in it to do that but then died overnight. I then couldn’t start it again this morning. Will leave on charge overnight and see if it then works. If so, but fails again soon after may be it is just the battery. Perhaps I could just take it to Halfords and ask them to check that?
Thanks once again.
Edited by FlyingFish874 on Sunday 5th March 18:08
The old separate solenoid is in place but effectively it doesn’t do anything as all it has are the live cables all joined on the same pin. I could just use a nut and bolt to achieve the same result. Both the old starter removed and the new one have the solenoid on top of the starter.
I could try and run the starter directly in some way which is what I think is being suggested. Just don’t understand why it worked several times last night fine. I just don’t think it is the actual starter because of this.
That said I can’t rule anything out as each time I think I’ve sorted it I clearly haven’t!!
I could try and run the starter directly in some way which is what I think is being suggested. Just don’t understand why it worked several times last night fine. I just don’t think it is the actual starter because of this.
That said I can’t rule anything out as each time I think I’ve sorted it I clearly haven’t!!
Thanks Adrian. I think I’m heading into a level of technical difficulty beyond my capability but I’ll read what you have said to my neighbour who fortunately likes his classic cars too and is far more familiar with electrickery!
Do you mean I should replace the whole ignition switch if there isn’t currently a relay? And I presume then I’ll also need a relay so is any relay ok? I love the fact I’m asking questions without really understanding what is required!!!!
For info my ignition switch appears to have wires that are what I can only describe as riveted on via a block that is on the rear of the ignition. They aren’t push on connectors if you know what I mean.
Thanks to you and all for taking time to try and help me.
Do you mean I should replace the whole ignition switch if there isn’t currently a relay? And I presume then I’ll also need a relay so is any relay ok? I love the fact I’m asking questions without really understanding what is required!!!!
For info my ignition switch appears to have wires that are what I can only describe as riveted on via a block that is on the rear of the ignition. They aren’t push on connectors if you know what I mean.
Thanks to you and all for taking time to try and help me.
Edited by FlyingFish874 on Sunday 5th March 21:38
Edited by FlyingFish874 on Sunday 5th March 21:53
Adrian
Many thanks. What is the best way of contacting you? Do you sell everything I need that you have mentioned?
I think I’m getting it now after a bit of research. Is this what you think I should have, but without the engine computer obviously? Hence it is the relay on the starter control wire I’m looking for? My gut feeling is I’ve not seen one of those before I do confess.
Many thanks. What is the best way of contacting you? Do you sell everything I need that you have mentioned?
I think I’m getting it now after a bit of research. Is this what you think I should have, but without the engine computer obviously? Hence it is the relay on the starter control wire I’m looking for? My gut feeling is I’ve not seen one of those before I do confess.
Edited by FlyingFish874 on Sunday 5th March 23:11
Edited by FlyingFish874 on Sunday 5th March 23:13
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