Essex V6

[IroningMan]

Hi all,

More than fifteen years ago I built up my current Essex lump using parts and expertise from John Wade at JW Developments. The end result was IRO 190bhp at the flywheel with standard size valves and a single 38DGAS.

Who can I go to for an engine these days? I'd like 300bhp/300lb/ft: forced induction is fine but in a modprod hillclimber I need to stick with an Essex block.

Hoping there's still someone who does this...

[GAjon]

Ric Wood, Stockport.

[Andrew Gray]

GAjon said:

Ric Wood, Stockport.

And Serious £
Andrew

[TaimarTurbo]

Has John Wade retired?

I'm also looking for someone to do my engine.

[anonymous-user]

Andrew Gray said:

GAjon said:

Ric Wood, Stockport.

And Serious £
Andrew

To be fair Andrew, the cost of building a normally aspirated engine to the power stated will be expensive no matter who the builder is.

Everything in the engine is probably to upgrade, and the good old cast iron heads will be a stumbling block if you want any level of reliability. My full race engine falls just a little bit short of 300 horses, and I was quoted 15K to scratch build a spare engine to the same spec as mine a few years ago .. (its not got alloy heads and I would not have had carbs and inlet manifold supplied for the 15K)

If you speak with Ric, he charges to strip and rebuild. Upgrade parts are parts expensive, you can supply them yourself..

Heads and carburation will look after £4000+ (you won't get your 300 BHP on triple 40 dcnf carbs without a lot of work -42 dcnfs are rare as rocking horse poo). You may decide on throttle bodies, but don't see that being a cheap route...

Cam and coated followers won't leave much change from £1000. You can fit standard followers and reduce the price by a fair lump, but they'll be concave in no time at all.

I would give Ric a call, you maybe disappointed with what he tells you, but he will be honest. Very much a what it says on the tin man.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 11th May 14:23

[anonymous-user]

I would go to Scholar Engines personally. They know their stuff on the Essex and I've recently been out in a car with a Scholar Essex engine and it was incredible to say the least - 246hp at the wheels and you could put a pint on the rocker cover without it spilling.

[Dollyman1850]

TVRMs said:

Andrew Gray said:

GAjon said:

Ric Wood, Stockport.

And Serious £
Andrew

To be fair Andrew, the cost of building a normally aspirated engine to the power stated will be expensive no matter who the builder is.

Everything in the engine is probably to upgrade, and the good old cast iron heads will be a stumbling block if you want any level of reliability. My full race engine falls just a little bit short of 300 horses, and I was quoted 15K to scratch build a spare engine to the same spec as mine a few years ago .. (its not got alloy heads and I would not have had carbs and inlet manifold supplied for the 15K)

If you speak with Ric, he charges to strip and rebuild. Upgrade parts are parts expensive, you can supply them yourself..

Heads and carburation will look after £4000+ (you won't get your 300 BHP on triple 40 dcnf carbs without a lot of work -42 dcnfs are rare as rocking horse poo). You may decide on throttle bodies, but don't see that being a cheap route...

Cam and coated followers won't leave much change from £1000. You can fit standard followers and reduce the price by a fair lump, but they'll be concave in no time at all.

I would give Ric a call, you maybe disappointed with what he tells you, but he will be honest. Very much a what it says on the tin man.

Edited by TVRMs on Thursday 11th May 14:23

FIFTEEN GRAND !!!

[GAjon]

Dollyman1850 said:

FIFTEEN GRAND !!!

I know, I had Rally Equipe rebuild an Essex for me-

Big valve heads
Over bore to 3.1 with power max pistons
Reground and tufrided crankshaft
Piper high lift cam
Brand new dfi5 twin choke carb

145bhp at the wheels £1500.00.


I'll look for the full bill and spec.

Might take a while it was 1982.

[Dollyman1850]

GAjon said:

I know, I had Rally Equipe rebuild an Essex for me-

Big valve heads
Over bore to 3.1 with power max pistons
Reground and tufrided crankshaft
Piper high lift cam
Brand new dfi5 twin choke carb

145bhp at the wheels £1500.00.


I'll look for the full bill and spec.

Might take a while it was 1982.

I know I am turning into my dad. And I know things aren't as cheap as they once were but £15K in my eyes is hard to justify.
My poverty spec V8 with about 300hp is working out at about £3500.

My budget for an all Moly forged Race engine built into my 5.0 roller block and 400hp is approx £6k all in.....

Now I know parts can be pricey but Pistons are pistons, rods are rods and Building a V6 is exactly the same as building a V8. If anything it should work out 20% cheaper especially in this day and age with computer controlled mills, 5 axis machines which do away with the need for complex casting etc etc... Granted..Getting the last little bit out of an engine and paying the specialist that can get 10hp more than the next best often comes at a price.....but £15k to me seems a kings ransom!! Or am I missing something?

Edited by Dollyman1850 on Thursday 11th May 17:24

[GAjon]

But is that your parts? What about your labour time then times that by even your local garage rate, soon gets up there.

As for the expert getting that extra bit of HP,

As Eric Morecombe said, " I am playing the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order"

Any way the op just wanted to know if people were still doing stuff for the Essex, and they are.
I though John Wade was still active also.

[anonymous-user]

Find it reassuring that folk who haven't tried to build a 300 BHP V6 Essex know what it should cost.

For those who forgot, starting with nothing to getting a reliable 300 BHP out of an Essex V6 on cast heads is a real challenge.

It's not cheap, try it and let me know, but be honest, don't price it up forgetting your own work or the value of parts you've already got and please, don't try passing off corrected rolling road figures as real.

[anonymous-user]

Dollyman1850 said:

GAjon said:

I know, I had Rally Equipe rebuild an Essex for me-

Big valve heads
Over bore to 3.1 with power max pistons
Reground and tufrided crankshaft
Piper high lift cam
Brand new dfi5 twin choke carb

145bhp at the wheels £1500.00.


I'll look for the full bill and spec.

Might take a while it was 1982.

I know I am turning into my dad. And I know things aren't as cheap as they once were but £15K in my eyes is hard to justify.
My poverty spec V8 with about 300hp is working out at about £3500.

My budget for an all Moly forged Race engine built into my 5.0 roller block and 400hp is approx £6k all in.....

Now I know parts can be pricey but Pistons are pistons, rods are rods and Building a V6 is exactly the same as building a V8. If anything it should work out 20% cheaper especially in this day and age with computer controlled mills, 5 axis machines which do away with the need for complex casting etc etc... Granted..Getting the last little bit out of an engine and paying the specialist that can get 10hp more than the next best often comes at a price.....but £15k to me seems a kings ransom!! Or am I missing something?

Edited by Dollyman1850 on Thursday 11th May 17:24

Yes Neil, you're missing something.

I was talking about the costs to build a full race engine, not a fast road engine.

You're not starting with nothing, infact you have some good bits in there already and....400 BHP from a stroked 302 is easy. I bought a freshly built one with warranty for £7500 - turn key as with clutch, carb, alternator etc.

You're not honest/selective with your costing.

You've forgotten your time to do work and buy tools to get you there and you won't spend money on dyno time to ensure what you've built is safe, cos what you've assembled is not marginal. Try a grand to set-up a full race engine..

As an aside, in 6 years racing, circa 400 running hours, I've not had an engine let go. Is that being smug? Not intended, it was to try and underline that reliability of a marginal anything costs.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 11th May 20:14

[Dollyman1850]

TVRMs said:

Find it reassuring that folk who haven't tried to build a 300 BHP V6 Essex know what it should cost.

For those who forgot, starting with nothing to getting a reliable 300 BHP out of an Essex V6 on cast heads is a real challenge.

It's not cheap, try it and let me know, but be honest, don't price it up forgetting your own work or the value of parts you've already got and please, don't try passing off corrected rolling road figures as real.

I am a realist John.
A Farndon crank, H beam rods, Forged pistons has a cost. You then assemble taking time to do it properly. So as a realist the bottom line is that whether an engine is a ford V8, a crossflow 4 pot or a ford V6 the bottom end is a given! and there abouts the same cost to build across the board.

The money then is in the cam and heads and yes cast iron heads need to be ported by those in the know and I agree that it takes some time and know how and practise... as a realist though I know that £15k to me equates to 5 months graft. what I am commenting on is what must be a vast difference in parts costs for the Essex engine! Once a bottom end is built then the power lies in the head, cam and Induction / Exhaust. The Cam is another shop bought item along with followers, unless of course you are having a custom grind and experimenting but I will bet my last quid that the technology developed when the Essex was current won't have been bettered that much!.... That leaves valves and headwork. This is granted a lot more expensive than buying a modern CNC Ported ally head but it still feels like it is more about what people are having to pay rather than what something really costs!

As you say though I have never tried to build a 300hp Essex :-) Sounds like a good business plan to me

I am not so sure that the real reason for the costs isn't more to do with salesmanship and paying for the specialists development time of course!! There are 3-4 specialists around who are the go to guys.. I wonder how many silent engineers are out there who don't blow the trumpet so much who can still build very good engines.

Someone only the other week was telling me that the labour figures to screw an engine together wasn't too bad...but you are correct my labour figure is cheap.....For me at least.

£15k still sounds a lot to me though.

I won't know if I can do it cheaper till I try Not this year though. Too much plumbing.

As for blowing up..well this year will be different in that it will be the first time I have used an engine in the racer that I haven't paid someone else to build...So if it doesn't blow up I will be ecstatic

N.

Edited by Dollyman1850 on Thursday 11th May 20:19

[plasticpig72]

What about BurtonPower, they seem to have good products.
Alan

[anonymous-user]

plasticpig72 said:

What about BurtonPower, they seem to have good products.
Alan

Some very good products and some very good people that can provide sound advice.

[anonymous-user]

V6Pushfit said:

I would go to Scholar Engines personally. They know their stuff on the Essex and I've recently been out in a car with a Scholar Essex engine and it was incredible to say the least - 246hp at the wheels and you could put a pint on the rocker cover without it spilling.

Interesting choice and a connection I wouldn't have made.

Knowing what they charged in 1973 to build a legal 104 bhp formula ford engine (close to 3K), I wouldn't imagine the cost for them to build you a 300bhp Essex would be anything but eye watering

[GAjon]

TVRMs said:

plasticpig72 said:

What about BurtonPower, they seem to have good products.
Alan

Some very good products and some very good people that can provide sound advice.

Anyone have the time or inclination to add up the cost to purchase all the lovely parts on the Burtons site required to build a top Essex ?

Be an interesting pointer.

[anonymous-user]

GAjon said:

Anyone have the time or inclination to add up the cost to purchase all the lovely parts on the Burtons site required to build a top Essex ?

Be an interesting pointer.

Would be interesting Jon, add in machining costs, then strip and build cost then set-up and you're there

Quick and dirty I got to £11000 in bits without a crank, no baffled sump and in-adequate carburation but the best they had.

15K is starting to look optimistic.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 12th May 08:49

[Andrew Gray]

GAjon said:

TVRMs said:

plasticpig72 said:

What about BurtonPower, they seem to have good products.
Alan

Some very good products and some very good people that can provide sound advice.

Anyone have the time or inclination to add up the cost to purchase all the lovely parts on the Burtons site required to build a top Essex ?

Be an interesting pointer.

Burton when it comes to engine work will farm all that out to a local engineering company that has many ex ford Dagenham Factory guys in they are very good and did the balancing on some of my parts when i re built my Crossflow top end rather than going through Burtons .

As for the Essex V6 in race spec its obvious that the overall cost to maintain a competitive car on the track is costly Zappa Racing in the US has recently sold his engine back to Rick Wood as he has gone V8 not for the extra power but for cost reasons in the USA V8 and Racing in the USA there is many options V6 Essex there are not
Andrew

[anonymous-user]

TVRMs said:

Interesting choice and a connection I wouldn't have made.

Knowing what they charged in 1973 to build a legal 104 bhp formula ford engine (close to 3K), I wouldn't imagine the cost for them to build you a 300bhp Essex would be anything but eye watering

Not from what they told me I have to say, but expensive enough and well worth a try