Advice please on removing bonded on body.
Discussion
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Hello fellow TVR enthusiasts. My name is Reece. My Dad bought the TVR Tuscan you see new in 67. It had no engine or transmission, it came that way. He bought the 289 and the 4 speed right from Ford and put them in.
The picture you see of the little kid is me in 72. Dad sold the car not long after to get a family car. I located the car in 2007, but at that time had no funds to buy it. Fastforward to 2015, Dad passed away in February, and we had restored a 75 2500M. I sold that car to get funds to buy Dad's old Tuscan. Had lots of TVR entusiasts telling me that the Tuscan was quite a rare car, 1 of 26 or something.
So now I have the car in my garage. I have experience doing body/paint work, but have never encountered the bonded-on body of this TVR. The 2500M of course, was a bolt on and very simple to remove.
I need some help. If anyone can provide me with the detailed steps on how to remove the body while doing the least amount of damage I would be forever thankful. I have discovered there is some rust on a few parts of the frame, which I can repair. It has come to my understanding that there are other enthusiasts that have done this successfully. I would love to have photos or whatever can be provided. I am only interested in doing a quality job, sort of a homage to my Dad. If necessary to IM me that is ok too.
I also will admit that my skills with electrics is lacking so in future I hope to turn to this forum for advice on that subject. I will be happy to post pictures if anyone is interested. I have done lots of Google searching and have not seen many of these cars that have the one piece bigger windows in the doors.
Thank you in advance for anyone that takes time out of their lives to help me, it sincerely would mean a lot.
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I have no experience with the bonded on body so can't really help other than to say a lot have converted them to bolt on. But I do wish you all the luck in the world in getting the car back on the road. Please keep us up to date with lots of pictures.
Loads of help will be on its way I'm sure.
Just to add a note the Tuscan V8 is a very rare and sought after car.
Chris
Loads of help will be on its way I'm sure.
Just to add a note the Tuscan V8 is a very rare and sought after car.
Chris
Edited by chris52 on Wednesday 9th December 08:06
Hi.
Could you post a couple of pictures of the doors open showing to door hinges.
the project looks very good. The Chassis number of the car is very interesting as are some of the details showing in the photos.
Looking at the car I would assume a body off will be required to re-furbish the chassis. You will then have to decide whether you want to re-bond the body to the chassis or convert to bolt on. A bolt on is more user friendly for future works but a bonded car generally feels taught in use.
To remove the body it is possible to cut the floor sections out below the chassis outrigger tubes whilst leaving the top surfaces of the fibreglass in tact and then peel the body away from the chassis. It won't come away without a fight however and you will also need to ensure the steel door support panels are not attached to the outriggers…it is fair to assume they won't be as a result of the natural oxidation process!!
The other method is to cut the entire perimeter of the body off the chassis whilst leaving the floor in tact still on the chassis. Then you can lay up a new floor with the chassis on a table…
To do it this way you can use plastic plumbing pipe to sit over the chassis tubes and then wet lay the new floor which will then create a nice even space around the tubes for access to your bolted on body.
Neil.
Could you post a couple of pictures of the doors open showing to door hinges.
the project looks very good. The Chassis number of the car is very interesting as are some of the details showing in the photos.
Looking at the car I would assume a body off will be required to re-furbish the chassis. You will then have to decide whether you want to re-bond the body to the chassis or convert to bolt on. A bolt on is more user friendly for future works but a bonded car generally feels taught in use.
To remove the body it is possible to cut the floor sections out below the chassis outrigger tubes whilst leaving the top surfaces of the fibreglass in tact and then peel the body away from the chassis. It won't come away without a fight however and you will also need to ensure the steel door support panels are not attached to the outriggers…it is fair to assume they won't be as a result of the natural oxidation process!!
The other method is to cut the entire perimeter of the body off the chassis whilst leaving the floor in tact still on the chassis. Then you can lay up a new floor with the chassis on a table…
To do it this way you can use plastic plumbing pipe to sit over the chassis tubes and then wet lay the new floor which will then create a nice even space around the tubes for access to your bolted on body.
Neil.
I did warn you ?
Well just to add to the mix
Firstly can you post close up pictures of the places where you have the most corrosion as I wonder is it as bad as you think.
Have you taken a drill with a small bit to the areas that are glassed in if it feels solid in most areas do this top and bottom if need be that area the glass can be cut out and a repair done and re glassed.
Yes that car is special not only to you with your Fathers connection but due to its history and rarity.
You have what looks like a very original car or certainly by early TVR survivor standards are concerned and everything you do take away alter is history lost.
There are many cars out there still going on the original glassed in Chassis and yes there are places that will need addressing but I would take in some way the harder approach than the easy approach.
I will await the bullets
Andrew
Well just to add to the mix
Firstly can you post close up pictures of the places where you have the most corrosion as I wonder is it as bad as you think.
Have you taken a drill with a small bit to the areas that are glassed in if it feels solid in most areas do this top and bottom if need be that area the glass can be cut out and a repair done and re glassed.
Yes that car is special not only to you with your Fathers connection but due to its history and rarity.
You have what looks like a very original car or certainly by early TVR survivor standards are concerned and everything you do take away alter is history lost.
There are many cars out there still going on the original glassed in Chassis and yes there are places that will need addressing but I would take in some way the harder approach than the easy approach.
I will await the bullets
Andrew
Bang bang. It's not that bad of a job messy dusty etc. but it will take you longer doing odd bits etc and it's worth more than to bodge it. If its worth doing it worth. Etc etc. oh forgot yo say duck sorry Andrew Good luck with you're project you will learn a lot doing it up. Have fun. Richard
Edited by griff 200 on Wednesday 9th December 19:26
If it was me i would remove body from chassis but before i would make a good cradle to fully support the body once removed. I think it's best to keep windscreen and back window in place + the doors to stop body distorting. Once chassis has been refurbished and body back in place (fibre glass fully cured) then if required doors or Windows could be removed.
For sure the Windows and doors keep the integral shape.
Good luck you have a fantastic project
Alan
For sure the Windows and doors keep the integral shape.
Good luck you have a fantastic project
Alan
My body tub (series one vixen, so same tub as yours, I think) was converted to bolt on by the previous owner and a new chassis obtained with the gussets etc in place. I can get you photos if you need them. I have to say though, if I hadn't bought it like that I would not have converted it. The three main reasons for doing so are to allow the chassis to be inspected and cleaned, to make sure it dries out properly and stop water creeping along between glass and steel, and to allow easy subsequent body off. With modern protective coatings and the fact that these cars won't likely be treated as everyday cars anymore, I personally don't think it's necessary for a street car. Re doing the floor after a chassis rebuild might be messy but I think it's eminently doable. Probably no more of a faff than doing the bolt on.
I think thee is a steel plate that sits inside one of the door pillars and is welded to the chassis on some cars. No evidence mine had one though. This might be difficult to re attach.
I think thee is a steel plate that sits inside one of the door pillars and is welded to the chassis on some cars. No evidence mine had one though. This might be difficult to re attach.
Edited by Astacus on Thursday 10th December 19:27
The S1 vixen adopted the later 107 anglia ford hinge and as a result the shell was modified with fibreglass hinge housings and the earlier hinges were omitted at this point. There are also other detail differences in the shells spanning 1800s / Vixen.
The earlier Tuscan / 1800s body / chassis units incorporated the TVR made hinge assembly. This consists of a steel reinforcement plate which welds to the outrigger behind the door A post and separate steel pieces which form the hinge housings through the door a post hinge apertures
As mentioned previously; On a car of this age and probable condition it will be a certainty that there will be extensive corrosion in all the enclosed tubes and a Body off will be the best way to go. Particularly when considering the money that will be spent on this car when fully restored.
The trouble with a body off is that it then becomes easier to Bolt the body back onto the chassis but it would be more correct to Bond the body on. The chassis sequence is very interesting and the year of the car along with some features and the fact that the car was purchased without engine and gearbox points in my opinion to a distinct period in time with respect to the history of the car.
The chassis plate is later than I would expect to see however on this particular car and doesn't appear original…as ever this was a very turbulent time at TVR. The numbering sequence however is very telling. There are also some Griffith features on the car
Does the OP know the circumstances of its purchase originally…?
Great project.
When considering the amount of times that people remove bodies from chassis, I think in this instant I would be doing a full body off then re-bonding as part of a restoration.
N.
The earlier Tuscan / 1800s body / chassis units incorporated the TVR made hinge assembly. This consists of a steel reinforcement plate which welds to the outrigger behind the door A post and separate steel pieces which form the hinge housings through the door a post hinge apertures
As mentioned previously; On a car of this age and probable condition it will be a certainty that there will be extensive corrosion in all the enclosed tubes and a Body off will be the best way to go. Particularly when considering the money that will be spent on this car when fully restored.
The trouble with a body off is that it then becomes easier to Bolt the body back onto the chassis but it would be more correct to Bond the body on. The chassis sequence is very interesting and the year of the car along with some features and the fact that the car was purchased without engine and gearbox points in my opinion to a distinct period in time with respect to the history of the car.
The chassis plate is later than I would expect to see however on this particular car and doesn't appear original…as ever this was a very turbulent time at TVR. The numbering sequence however is very telling. There are also some Griffith features on the car
Does the OP know the circumstances of its purchase originally…?
Great project.
When considering the amount of times that people remove bodies from chassis, I think in this instant I would be doing a full body off then re-bonding as part of a restoration.
N.
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Thursday 10th December 23:19
I had a very early Vixen S1 (with MGB engine). It had visible corrosion around the outrigger supports (the ones that slope down from the top main chassis rails) and the rear cross-member and no one was prepared to attempt welding with the body on. I had zero experience of this sort of thing so with an angle grinder and reciprocating saw I hacked the floorpans out and the body off. I'd been driving the car for a few months before I did all this and was somewhat surprised by the level of death-trappishness that was revealed; both outriggers and rear cross-member came off with the body and the two main lower chassis rails had approx 12" gaps adjacent to the front of the floorpans. A garage in Cranleigh (Stuart Engineering) welded in over 23ft of new tubing to make good.
Yes, definitely remove the body and check chassis.
Yes, definitely remove the body and check chassis.
So glad you were able to find, and to purchase this fantastic car.
I suspect that you don't plan to part with it, ever again. Therefore, iit should be of zero consequence, to anybody else, how you choose to alter it. Best of luck, and godspeed, with the restoration. I hope you enjoy the process.
Best regards,
Bernard.
I suspect that you don't plan to part with it, ever again. Therefore, iit should be of zero consequence, to anybody else, how you choose to alter it. Best of luck, and godspeed, with the restoration. I hope you enjoy the process.
Best regards,
Bernard.
In regards to Dollyman's remark about whether the VIN tag is original......To quote what I read in the book "The TVR's" ;
THE TUSACN V8
Mechanically, the car which took over from the Griffith, was a Griffith, though it was renamed in an unsuccessful attempt to kill off the Griffiths bad reputation. Indeed, the new car, called a Tuscan V8 by Martin Lilley,was so nearly like the Griffith, that it took up the same series of chassis numbers: the last of the Lilley managed Griffiths was 200-010 and was built in January 1967, while the very first Tuscan used 200-011 and followed on immediately.
My car is 200-018, and the fellow I got it from also has 200-019. I can remember my father telling me that when he bought the car in 1967 that there were 5 of them there. All had no engines or transmissions. I even have a copy of the original paperwork that registered the car when it was new prior to my Father buying it.
I have the names of every guy that has owned the car, and will be searching them out over the next few months to document the cars history since my Father sold it in 1972.
I have decided, after discussion with some fellow enthusiasts, that the vehicle deserves a "period" restoration to make it as close to how it would have been when my Father first drove the car.
Hopefully when I reach out to the other previous owners I will be able to obtain some photos of the car as well to help with documentation.
THE TUSACN V8
Mechanically, the car which took over from the Griffith, was a Griffith, though it was renamed in an unsuccessful attempt to kill off the Griffiths bad reputation. Indeed, the new car, called a Tuscan V8 by Martin Lilley,was so nearly like the Griffith, that it took up the same series of chassis numbers: the last of the Lilley managed Griffiths was 200-010 and was built in January 1967, while the very first Tuscan used 200-011 and followed on immediately.
My car is 200-018, and the fellow I got it from also has 200-019. I can remember my father telling me that when he bought the car in 1967 that there were 5 of them there. All had no engines or transmissions. I even have a copy of the original paperwork that registered the car when it was new prior to my Father buying it.
I have the names of every guy that has owned the car, and will be searching them out over the next few months to document the cars history since my Father sold it in 1972.
I have decided, after discussion with some fellow enthusiasts, that the vehicle deserves a "period" restoration to make it as close to how it would have been when my Father first drove the car.
Hopefully when I reach out to the other previous owners I will be able to obtain some photos of the car as well to help with documentation.
67Tuscan said:
In regards to Dollyman's remark about whether the VIN tag is original......To quote what I read in the book "The TVR's" ;
THE TUSACN V8
Mechanically, the car which took over from the Griffith, was a Griffith, though it was renamed in an unsuccessful attempt to kill off the Griffiths bad reputation. Indeed, the new car, called a Tuscan V8 by Martin Lilley,was so nearly like the Griffith, that it took up the same series of chassis numbers: the last of the Lilley managed Griffiths was 200-010 and was built in January 1967, while the very first Tuscan used 200-011 and followed on immediately.
My car is 200-018, and the fellow I got it from also has 200-019. I can remember my father telling me that when he bought the car in 1967 that there were 5 of them there. All had no engines or transmissions. I even have a copy of the original paperwork that registered the car when it was new prior to my Father buying it.
I have the names of every guy that has owned the car, and will be searching them out over the next few months to document the cars history since my Father sold it in 1972.
I have decided, after discussion with some fellow enthusiasts, that the vehicle deserves a "period" restoration to make it as close to how it would have been when my Father first drove the car.
Hopefully when I reach out to the other previous owners I will be able to obtain some photos of the car as well to help with documentation.
Hi.THE TUSACN V8
Mechanically, the car which took over from the Griffith, was a Griffith, though it was renamed in an unsuccessful attempt to kill off the Griffiths bad reputation. Indeed, the new car, called a Tuscan V8 by Martin Lilley,was so nearly like the Griffith, that it took up the same series of chassis numbers: the last of the Lilley managed Griffiths was 200-010 and was built in January 1967, while the very first Tuscan used 200-011 and followed on immediately.
My car is 200-018, and the fellow I got it from also has 200-019. I can remember my father telling me that when he bought the car in 1967 that there were 5 of them there. All had no engines or transmissions. I even have a copy of the original paperwork that registered the car when it was new prior to my Father buying it.
I have the names of every guy that has owned the car, and will be searching them out over the next few months to document the cars history since my Father sold it in 1972.
I have decided, after discussion with some fellow enthusiasts, that the vehicle deserves a "period" restoration to make it as close to how it would have been when my Father first drove the car.
Hopefully when I reach out to the other previous owners I will be able to obtain some photos of the car as well to help with documentation.
Please don't misunderstand me…I can see that the car is very very original as a Tuscan.
When I state that the vin tag being possibly not original…I mean the TAG itself which are generally found on newer cars…Vixen S2 etc….I am quite satisfied that the number on the tag relates to the car of the period and is what it is..Again. This was a very turbulent time for TVR and I am very interested as to how your dad originally purchased it without engine and box. There were some car seizures around this time when TVR went bust in the UK so I am wondering whether your father purchased it from Customs or as a part finished car shortly after landing dockside…There is also the possibility that your dad purchased it as a kit. If you are confident that No 18 and 19 are accounted for then that makes 7 Tuscan chassis sequence numbers I know of in the states which pre-date the MAL chassis vehicles. The car has griffith and also Tuscan features and has some other features which may lead others to state Tuscan SE. I don't think at the time however when considering your chassis sequence that the Tuscan SE had been thought of..It is likely that a past enthusiast owner has added parts to make it appear like an SE later in its life. as you have stated the first Tuscans were Griffiths with a name change…Yours is somewhere in the middle..Whether originally or modified over time no one is likely to know other than perhaps a previous owner..
The UK 200-10 400 griffith which you refer to was owned by Simon Bridge for a long time in the UK. That car has now been converted to a FIA spec racing car which in some ways is a shame. it is quite likely that your car was actually shipped to the states before this car was actually sold. Again all a busy time in the world of TVR.
I hope you really enjoy your project..It will certainly be a labour of love and it would be great to keep us informed of the history as you uncover it.
Neil.
Dollyman1850 said:
Hi.
Please don't misunderstand me…I can see that the car is very very original as a Tuscan.
When I state that the vin tag being possibly not original…I mean the TAG itself which are generally found on newer cars…Vixen S2 etc….I am quite satisfied that the number on the tag relates to the car of the period and is what it is..Again. This was a very turbulent time for TVR and I am very interested as to how your dad originally purchased it without engine and box. There were some car seizures around this time when TVR went bust in the UK so I am wondering whether your father purchased it from Customs or as a part finished car shortly after landing dockside…There is also the possibility that your dad purchased it as a kit. If you are confident that No 18 and 19 are accounted for then that makes 7 Tuscan chassis sequence numbers I know of in the states which pre-date the MAL chassis vehicles. The car has griffith and also Tuscan features and has some other features which may lead others to state Tuscan SE. I don't think at the time however when considering your chassis sequence that the Tuscan SE had been thought of..It is likely that a past enthusiast owner has added parts to make it appear like an SE later in its life. as you have stated the first Tuscans were Griffiths with a name change…Yours is somewhere in the middle..Whether originally or modified over time no one is likely to know other than perhaps a previous owner..
The UK 200-10 400 griffith which you refer to was owned by Simon Bridge for a long time in the UK. That car has now been converted to a FIA spec racing car which in some ways is a shame. it is quite likely that your car was actually shipped to the states before this car was actually sold. Again all a busy time in the world of TVR.
I hope you really enjoy your project..It will certainly be a labour of love and it would be great to keep us informed of the history as you uncover it.
Neil.
100% bPlease don't misunderstand me…I can see that the car is very very original as a Tuscan.
When I state that the vin tag being possibly not original…I mean the TAG itself which are generally found on newer cars…Vixen S2 etc….I am quite satisfied that the number on the tag relates to the car of the period and is what it is..Again. This was a very turbulent time for TVR and I am very interested as to how your dad originally purchased it without engine and box. There were some car seizures around this time when TVR went bust in the UK so I am wondering whether your father purchased it from Customs or as a part finished car shortly after landing dockside…There is also the possibility that your dad purchased it as a kit. If you are confident that No 18 and 19 are accounted for then that makes 7 Tuscan chassis sequence numbers I know of in the states which pre-date the MAL chassis vehicles. The car has griffith and also Tuscan features and has some other features which may lead others to state Tuscan SE. I don't think at the time however when considering your chassis sequence that the Tuscan SE had been thought of..It is likely that a past enthusiast owner has added parts to make it appear like an SE later in its life. as you have stated the first Tuscans were Griffiths with a name change…Yours is somewhere in the middle..Whether originally or modified over time no one is likely to know other than perhaps a previous owner..
The UK 200-10 400 griffith which you refer to was owned by Simon Bridge for a long time in the UK. That car has now been converted to a FIA spec racing car which in some ways is a shame. it is quite likely that your car was actually shipped to the states before this car was actually sold. Again all a busy time in the world of TVR.
I hope you really enjoy your project..It will certainly be a labour of love and it would be great to keep us informed of the history as you uncover it.
Neil.
ksGrantura MKI said:
There are different styles of the tag used starting for sure in the 1800s era....so, I would not be too quick say its wrong.
Best,
D.
I said generally…There no doubt will also be a good reason and possibly a story why that tag is on the car. generally they are on Newer cars, especially on that side of the pond.Best,
D.
N.
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