Tuscan V8 SE Spec US cars
Discussion
Over the last few days I have been able to find more information regarding the US V8SE Tuscan cars that is rather interesting and helps to clarify some of the confusions that have arisen in various threads on certain cars.
I met two owners of US MAL Chassis V8 Tuscans while I was away and they have been able to confirm what I had suspected
Although there where LW cars exported as well to the USA the MAL Chassis cars where different as they seem to be later cars and went to the US minus the Engine.
However this is the interesting thing and that is at that time it looks like they where building the cars as standard spec interiors and trim and if a customer wanted a V8 Car they where adding a V8 and the SE badge and that was it in the US rather than here in the UK as there was not the supply of V8 engines here and those had the 302 fitted I believe rather than the 289 as the supply of 289s had dried up as Ford went over to the 302 engines themselves.
This explains the few MAL Chassis cars that have appeared where many of us have said that's a Vixen V8 Conversion and in a way that's correct only it was done at the time of import when the importers added the engine
The Sales literature that was used TVR Cars of America helps to show this as there Sales Literature for the SE cars is just a one sheet added to the back of the Vixen 1600 brochure hence the Features of Most of the Tuscan SE Cars such as no Quarter Lights dual heater fans wider wheels and the upgraded interior did not appear on these cars hence also why the records don't list these here in the UK as SE Cars as I suspect there is no UK record of what ones that went where converted/built as new to V8 cars.
Here is the sales sheet used by TVR Cars of America
I met two owners of US MAL Chassis V8 Tuscans while I was away and they have been able to confirm what I had suspected
Although there where LW cars exported as well to the USA the MAL Chassis cars where different as they seem to be later cars and went to the US minus the Engine.
However this is the interesting thing and that is at that time it looks like they where building the cars as standard spec interiors and trim and if a customer wanted a V8 Car they where adding a V8 and the SE badge and that was it in the US rather than here in the UK as there was not the supply of V8 engines here and those had the 302 fitted I believe rather than the 289 as the supply of 289s had dried up as Ford went over to the 302 engines themselves.
This explains the few MAL Chassis cars that have appeared where many of us have said that's a Vixen V8 Conversion and in a way that's correct only it was done at the time of import when the importers added the engine
The Sales literature that was used TVR Cars of America helps to show this as there Sales Literature for the SE cars is just a one sheet added to the back of the Vixen 1600 brochure hence the Features of Most of the Tuscan SE Cars such as no Quarter Lights dual heater fans wider wheels and the upgraded interior did not appear on these cars hence also why the records don't list these here in the UK as SE Cars as I suspect there is no UK record of what ones that went where converted/built as new to V8 cars.
Here is the sales sheet used by TVR Cars of America
Edited by Andrew Gray on Monday 5th October 14:44
alphaone said:
The one I found most interesting was MAL008, not a SE but an auto box and Vixen interior. I believe the owner is in the process of doing a documentary about the V8 Tuscans
Yes however that car was sold as an SE Tuscan as you can see from the sales sheet so I guess the practice of popping a V8 in a Vixen spec car goes back to year one yes the Documentary footage was being played over the weekend at the Event there I am unsure when it is being released I did not watch it as I was busy elsewhere getting ready for the Banquet etc and changing my under ware after a spin in old Blue literally ?Andrew
289 Blocks were only in production until 1967…The later C8OE blocks were brought on line in 1968..These are 302 Blocks. 289 engines were actually built with later 302 Blocks in 1968 onwards.. 302 engines becoming more widespread in 1968 onward…Generally the MAL chassid cars should have 302 Blocks installed as OE, or 289 engines with the correct C8OE 302 blocks. The correct engine spec for most of the MAL chassid cars is a 302 displacement and an option was a Boss 302, an entirely different set up, essentially a windsor block with Cleveland heads. Anything with a C5AE Block is Griffith or has been built as a HI-PO from a Mustang..
Since the actual production run of these 22--odd cars is not very well documented then it is entirely possible that the odd C5AE block could have found its way into a later car. This is not date correct however..
Again this was a turbulent time at TVR and as such during this period I dare say surplus engines would be lying around in both countries needing an engine bay to live in..
A 302 Block is a much better prospect on which to build a tuned V8, especially if stroking.
N.
Since the actual production run of these 22--odd cars is not very well documented then it is entirely possible that the odd C5AE block could have found its way into a later car. This is not date correct however..
Again this was a turbulent time at TVR and as such during this period I dare say surplus engines would be lying around in both countries needing an engine bay to live in..
A 302 Block is a much better prospect on which to build a tuned V8, especially if stroking.
N.
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Monday 5th October 19:05
Dollyman1850 said:
289 Blocks were only in production until 1967…The later C8OE blocks were brought on line in 1968..These are 302 Blocks. 289 engines were actually built with later 302 Blocks in 1968 onwards.. 302 engines becoming more widespread in 1968 onward…Generally the MAL chassid cars should have 302 Blocks installed as OE, or 289 engines with the correct C8OE 302 blocks. The correct engine spec for most of the MAL chassid cars is a 302 displacement and an option was a Boss 302, an entirely different set up, essentially a windsor block with Cleveland heads. Anything with a C5AE Block is Griffith or has been built as a HI-PO from a Mustang..
Since the actual production run of these 22--odd cars is not very well documented then it is entirely possible that the odd C5AE block could have found its way into a later car. This is not date correct however..
Again this was a turbulent time at TVR and as such during this period I dare say surplus engines would be lying around in both countries needing an engine bay to live in..
N.
Thank you NeilSince the actual production run of these 22--odd cars is not very well documented then it is entirely possible that the odd C5AE block could have found its way into a later car. This is not date correct however..
Again this was a turbulent time at TVR and as such during this period I dare say surplus engines would be lying around in both countries needing an engine bay to live in..
N.
Interesting from what David Hives recalls although age and time can effect memory his thoughts where that during that later period they could not source V8 engines here in the UK which may well have had an effect on the reason for fitting in the USA.
Andrew
Sonus said:
If there are 22 MAL cars, what is chassis MAL023 that is registered here in Norway?
Don't quote me..was just an approximation..23 ----some say more.. of that 7/8 wide bodies but some say possibly 9.I don't think anyone really knows. Probably least of all Martin. he was doing a lot of shagging, boozing and racing around this time lucky bugger.
Mr Lyons is probably the best person to give an approximation of the actual number.
N.
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Monday 5th October 19:42
Dollyman1850 said:
Don't quote me..was just an approximation..23 ----some say more.. of that 7/8 wide bodies but some say possibly 9.
I don't think anyone really knows. Probably least of all Martin. he was doing a lot of shagging, boozing and racing around this time lucky bugger.
N.
Guy Dirken who owns one of the Wide Bodied cars has done extensive research on the MAL cars and sent me a copy of his findings which reads to about 30 pages.I don't think anyone really knows. Probably least of all Martin. he was doing a lot of shagging, boozing and racing around this time lucky bugger.
N.
His research does not confirm but certainly implies that there where only 5 wide bodied cars and the majority where vixen bodied cars that may or may not be V8 engine.
Guy was not there but his partner in the car was there and I had a good chat with him.
Time may or may not reveal the other cars but certainly an interesting batch of cars.
Andrew
Edited by Andrew Gray on Monday 5th October 22:34
I'm not an expert on Tuscan's but I think we should attempt to put dates against the statements above. There are a number of Vixens / Tuscan V6 that have been converted after the date and it would be a shame for the original cars to lose provenance. It may be useful to create a registry of original cars.
My fathers 1967 LWB Tuscan has a 289.
When did the MAL designation start
How are the wide bodied cars designated.
I was always under the impression that for the LWB cars the 302 was incorrect as it is a later fitment. I remember in 80's that 302's weren't eligible for historic racing. Possibly, Ian Massey Cross or Paul Wheldon could probably shed more light.
Rob
My fathers 1967 LWB Tuscan has a 289.
When did the MAL designation start
How are the wide bodied cars designated.
I was always under the impression that for the LWB cars the 302 was incorrect as it is a later fitment. I remember in 80's that 302's weren't eligible for historic racing. Possibly, Ian Massey Cross or Paul Wheldon could probably shed more light.
Rob
Edited by RobMk2a on Tuesday 6th October 09:06
RobMk2a said:
I'm not an expert on Tuscan's but I think we should attempt to put dates against the statements above. There are a number of Vixens / Tuscan V6 that have been converted after the date and it would be a shame for the original cars to lose providence. It may be useful to create a registry of original cars.
My fathers 1967 LWB Tuscan has a 289.
When did the MAL designation start
How are the wide bodied cars designated.
I was always under the impression that for the LWB cars the 302 was incorrect as it is a later fitment. I remember in 80's that 302's weren't eligible for historic racing. Possibly, Ian Massey Cross or Paul Wheldon could probably shed more light.
Rob
The original Tuscans are 1967 and its entirely correct for them to have a 289 engine.. Either with a std 289 Designation or a Hi-Po C5AE Designation. Its also entirely possible that they will have a 289 engine built with a 302 Block ( C8OE designation)My fathers 1967 LWB Tuscan has a 289.
When did the MAL designation start
How are the wide bodied cars designated.
I was always under the impression that for the LWB cars the 302 was incorrect as it is a later fitment. I remember in 80's that 302's weren't eligible for historic racing. Possibly, Ian Massey Cross or Paul Wheldon could probably shed more light.
Rob
As for provenance I assume they will also have a chassis number which Identifies them as the real deal..and if truly original then they will still be bonded to the chassis…
The 289 ceased production in 1967 and as usual with TVR things filtered out eventually so during the period 67-69 anything is possible..
Widebodies are 70 / 71 and as such a 302 will always be the correct engine, along with a chassis bonded to the body and many other detail differences.
As for numbers built…7 is always my lucky number so I will stick with that one..The number totals 8 with another car built with 4 wheel drive
There are 2 cars out there which no one from america has accounted for, Perhaps others in the UK who have been around TVR's for many many years know where they are.
.
N.
Neil,
Thank you - on the blocks whilst I agree that 302 block may be possible is there any evidence to show that any of the LWB cars were originally built with a 302 block.
Without doing more research I'll have to defer to those with better knowledge.
Regards
Rob
Better get back to my Grantura racing research!
Thank you - on the blocks whilst I agree that 302 block may be possible is there any evidence to show that any of the LWB cars were originally built with a 302 block.
Without doing more research I'll have to defer to those with better knowledge.
Regards
Rob
Better get back to my Grantura racing research!
As ever with early V8 TVRs it will be difficult to pin exact numbers (or authenticity) on variants of car. From the late 80's onwards, the value of these cars has increased dramatically (especially with FIA race success), and it's all to easy for cars to have been 'created', whether from Vixen's, boxes of bits, or just thin air!! Poor record keeping by TVR (both here and in the USA), means that they are openings for unscrupulous people to add vehicles, only 7 MAL cars, or 8, or 9, or this was originally a widebodied car with a MAL chassis number but now has a standard Vixen body on it, after a 1972 accident, you know what I mean......
There are already duplicate chassis number TVRs in existence (some even came straight from the factory), the provenance of these cars will always be difficult to prove, unless the car has a full documented (with pictures) history.
In reality it's no different from other Marques, in the 60's/70's records were just not of the same standards as they are today.
There are already duplicate chassis number TVRs in existence (some even came straight from the factory), the provenance of these cars will always be difficult to prove, unless the car has a full documented (with pictures) history.
In reality it's no different from other Marques, in the 60's/70's records were just not of the same standards as they are today.
DavidY said:
As ever with early V8 TVRs it will be difficult to pin exact numbers (or authenticity) on variants of car. From the late 80's onwards, the value of these cars has increased dramatically (especially with FIA race success), and it's all to easy for cars to have been 'created', whether from Vixen's, boxes of bits, or just thin air!! Poor record keeping by TVR (both here and in the USA), means that they are openings for unscrupulous people to add vehicles, only 7 MAL cars, or 8, or 9, or this was originally a widebodied car with a MAL chassis number but now has a standard Vixen body on it, after a 1972 accident, you know what I mean......
There are already duplicate chassis number TVRs in existence (some even came straight from the factory), the provenance of these cars will always be difficult to prove, unless the car has a full documented (with pictures) history.
In reality it's no different from other Marques, in the 60's/70's records were just not of the same standards as they are today.
Hi David There are already duplicate chassis number TVRs in existence (some even came straight from the factory), the provenance of these cars will always be difficult to prove, unless the car has a full documented (with pictures) history.
In reality it's no different from other Marques, in the 60's/70's records were just not of the same standards as they are today.
The Genuine V8 Cars ie The LW numbered 001 to 0023 are the only ones and there is not a register for these cars for exactly that reason so the missing numbers cant be faked easy and that is very wise and I fully understand the reason for that.
And yes these cars end in 67 with the last ones registered in early 68.
My Interest has really been to discover the heritage of the MAL Numbered V8 Non Wide Bodied cars that are all post 68 and have 302 engines SE Badging but no other SE feature as you would expect these where all export cars and engines fitted in the US.
Its been interesting seeing some of these cars appear over the last few years where many have questioned there heritage due to the lack of the Tuscan features.
However in the USA they where sold as SE V8 cars and where sold using the sales brochure used in the US at the time so nothing sinister other than like today with car makers selling a model in a different country but the specification being different to another country.
The Document written following extensive research by a US Wide bodied owner which I have a copy is rather interesting reading and I have shared this with a few and maybe they have share as well however I have written to him today asking permission to publish it or asking is the Document somewhere where it can be accessed as it would be wrong to publish someones research without there permission.
The Thread is really about those cars and the interesting details and in a way a missing gap in the V8 TVR Story.
And not about the Fully Specked Tuscan SE Cars
Regarding Cloning of the Genuine V8SE Cars that is much harder than you would think and anyone thinking of buying one would obviously do there research first as most that are remaining are well documented and due to the smaller numbers and the unique features not as easy to Clone as say a Griffith which sadly has been done and even the Marque experts have been caught out.
Andrew
Edited by Andrew Gray on Tuesday 6th October 17:03
DavidY said:
Andrew
Forgive me if my memory is a little sketchy but I believe that there is at least one duplicate MAL chassis number out there, that said there are probably less MAL cars made than some of the published books would lead one to believe!!
You may well be rightForgive me if my memory is a little sketchy but I believe that there is at least one duplicate MAL chassis number out there, that said there are probably less MAL cars made than some of the published books would lead one to believe!!
However from the info I have they go from 1 to 22 however there are two where the research does not list the number one being the 4WD Wide Bodied car
With 6 wide bodied confirmed known cars
and 6 Tuscan/Vixen 2500 V8 Cars 2 I am aware have no Tuscan features apart from engine I have not seen pictures of the others.
So 10 gaps with one other car known to be in Europe and not sure of Body style so 24 in total if his extensive research is correct
Andrew
RobMk2a said:
Neil,
Thank you - on the blocks whilst I agree that 302 block may be possible is there any evidence to show that any of the LWB cars were originally built with a 302 block.
Without doing more research I'll have to defer to those with better knowledge.
Regards
Rob
Better get back to my Grantura racing research!
Yes Rob it does seem that the MAL bodied cars at least some had early 302 Blocks Thank you - on the blocks whilst I agree that 302 block may be possible is there any evidence to show that any of the LWB cars were originally built with a 302 block.
Without doing more research I'll have to defer to those with better knowledge.
Regards
Rob
Better get back to my Grantura racing research!
Andrew
PS Your Grantura research is fantastic keep it going
Andrew Gray said:
DavidY said:
Andrew
Forgive me if my memory is a little sketchy but I believe that there is at least one duplicate MAL chassis number out there, that said there are probably less MAL cars made than some of the published books would lead one to believe!!
You may well be rightForgive me if my memory is a little sketchy but I believe that there is at least one duplicate MAL chassis number out there, that said there are probably less MAL cars made than some of the published books would lead one to believe!!
However from the info I have they go from 1 to 22 however there are two where the research does not list the number one being the 4WD Wide Bodied car
With 6 wide bodied confirmed known cars
and 6 Tuscan/Vixen 2500 V8 Cars 2 I am aware have no Tuscan features apart from engine I have not seen pictures of the others.
So 10 gaps with one other car known to be in Europe and not sure of Body style so 24 in total if his extensive research is correct
Andrew
Check out the last half of this page http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and this
http://www.accelit.ch/Tuscan-e_files/CarFolio%20TV...
and the 'mysterious' French Car -
http://allautosinfo.com/discussion/11004706/1967-t...
The accuracy of either is obviously to be verified (and all is public domain information)
I don't anyone will get to the bottom of this, and I susepct that these cars will keep coming out of the Woodwork (pun intended) for as long as we all live!
Gassing Station | TVR Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff