Chassis numbers of the early MK1 Grantura's.

[cantus]

I am very keen to know more about the early Mk1 Grantura's ! For example; Which chassisnumber was the first Mk1 ? The first one was without quaterlights, bonnetflares, vents & Alu bumpers ! At which chassisnr. was the change to these items ?
There are simular chassisnr. on the Saidel cars !!!
For example 116 was a Saidelcar and a TVR car !!
What happened there in 1958/1959 ?
There is one man who can tell me the true.....his name, Trevor Wilkinson !! Hopefully he is loggin in on Pistonheads !!!!
Who can help me to solve this mistery to complete the history of TVR in the early days.
greet
William Waardenburg
The Netherlands

[thegamekeeper]

Last time I spoke to the ONE man who would tell you the truth he was not on the internet.There are many however on here who can tell you lies. Here may be a couple of lies. First Jomar chassis no 7/C/101, an aluminium bodied car which was written off on the 5th August 1957. First TVR Grantura Mk1 was chassis No 7/B/101. The second one was chassis no 7/A/102 and was last known to belong to Ludwig Willisch in Koln in Germany sTeVeR

[cantus]

Are you sure about the 7/B/101 (first Mk1) ??
In all my lists they start at 110 !!
How about Stanley Killcoyne !
He was there as well at the time ! Is he still alive ?

[pistolar]

William ...... you....you.... Taimar driver!!!!!

[Terminator]

Not wishing to contradict The Gamekeeper, but the first and second Jomars were built on Dellow chassis. The third Jomar onwards used a TVR chassis, this was 7/C/101.

[thegamekeeper]

Absolutely right Colin, I just thought we were talking chassis numbers , not cars sTeVeR

[Terminator]

You know me, Steve, I never look at the chassis. You could stick a TVR badge on a Reliant Robin and I'd swear it was a secret prototype

I now consider myself the UK Jomar expert, now that I've spent a good few hours in the company of Alex Saidel and Johnathan Stein

[taimar78]

As you should, Colin after hearing about virtually every Jomar ever built, serial number by serial number,
from Alex and Jonathan.

[cantus]

Well....I think I am more confused than a couple of days ago ! Maybe Ray Saidel knows more ! I will try to contact him and will let you know !
And yes Pistolar....good friend, I bought a nice blue/silver Taimar for my chickens !! The poor litlle animals needed a warm shed for the coming winter. I can tell you , they already gave the interior a nice respray !!
greet
William
P.s. Thanks for taking care of my wheels !

[hayfever]

Now see, if you had just come to Woodwork lask October you could have heard Alex talk about and show photos of just about ALL the Jomars.

>> Edited by hayfever on Thursday 25th November 03:50

[wirewheel]

Hi all,
If it helps, although someone may know different, mine is a 1959 Mk1, 7f146 now with a 1500 MG, it has quarterlights, bonnet flares, vents, but no bumbers. Hope this helps?

[cantus]

Hallo Roy

That is strange !! I also do have car 7/F/140 (which is older than yours) with the original green V5 which says that the first registration is 25 march 1960 !
And I think your car should have alu bumpers.
Isn't David Gerald doing alu reproductions?

[wirewheel]

I have a bit of a grey area in my history? so I can only base it on what I have. It was not registed until 1983!!!!!! so I guess it had been hiding somewhere? but the chassis plate bears the no quoted, If anybody knows any different I would be pleased to hear, although I have had it confirm by everbody who has seen her that it is a genuine MK1, and I believe it myself, and I would not part with it. I don't really want to fit bumbers although I realise that it should have them. Does yours have disc or drum brakes?
Regards.

[cantus]

Hallo Roy,
At around the 6th or 7th Mk1 (+/- chassisnr 115) Trevor started to fit alu bumpers. Discs on the front were introduced on the Mk2A (early 1962).

And Neil,...No, I didn't ask Gulf for permission !Sometimes it is better not to ask. But I did ask for some sponsership and they made a fine gesture.....they sended me a couple of Gulf-stickers!!
No conflicts !!

[jomarsaidel]

Ok here we go:
TVR sent my father 2 quotes for almost identical chassis.
The 1st was used for the race cars (alloy bodies) it was the same dimensionally as the road cars except that the engine bay frame tubes were narrower and the tubing was lighter gage (less weight) than the road car version. Theses upper engine bay frame tubes then had the gussets on the outside where they met the front upper torsion tube. These chassis were designated 7/C "C" for Climax. The first being 7/c/101. 7/c/102, 7/c/103, and 104 were all bare racing chassis shipped to my dad and alloy bodies built for racing. Currently I have the remains of 101 (wrecked VIR Hepenstal), am restoring 102 (Columbosian), 103 is missing in Las Vegas area, and 104 is owned by Mark Brinker. Once the suspension problems were fixed and racing success mounted my father asked TVR if they could build the alloy bodies for us. Bernard Williams (Trevors front man and still alive at 95 today)told my father that he couldnt but that fiberglass was available. Te next race chassis 7/c/105 was being built and so my father asked him to body it. It had the color (red) put into the resin to save weight but still could not compete. This was due to the fact that it could not run production (not enough prod to warrant according to SCCA) and thus ran with the alloy bodies and Loti etc. This one and only roadster brought to the US is currently owned by Jim Duncan and is vertually unaltered from original.
Anyway I digress. A month or so after 105 arrived (roadster with full doors) The 1st coupe arrived 7/FS/101. FS for super charged ford 1172. This was, believe it or not,almost the duplicat chassis except for weight and engine bay top rail position.
The climax engines performed better and thus were ordered more rapidly than the fords so more C chassis were produced than FS's in the same year.

7/C/101 race chassis alloy body (USA)(wrecked 57 VIR Heppenstahl)
7/C/102 race chassis alloy body (USA)Columbosian 57, (under restoration Saidel 2007)
7/C/103 race chassis alloy body (USA)(Missing (Las Vegas, NV)1965)
7/C/104 race chassis alloy body (USA)(Restored, Mark Brinker Texas 2007)
7/C/105 race chassis fiberglass roadster(USA)(July 57)(Orig, Jim Duncan 2007)
7/FS/101 fiberglass notchback coupe(USA)(SEPT 57)(under restoration Saidel 2007)
7/C/106 fiberglass notchback stayed in UK(Sept 57)(ex paul hadfield 2006)
7/C/107 fiberglass notchback coupe (USA) Jan 58 (Ian rainford 2007)
7/C/108 fiberglass notchback coupe (USA) Jan 58 (restored Saidel 2007)
7/FS/102 fiberglass notchback coupe (USA) Feb 58 (Missing)
7/FS/103 last notchback converted to a fastback and shipped direct to New York for the Auto Show (USA) March 1958 (Under restor Tracy Miller 2007)

Now here we have a big problem as the current owner of 7FS103 says "Hey how come my fastback is 103 and Ian rainfords notchback is 7C107. Now you all know the answer.
7/C/109 race chassis alloy body (USA) May 58(Missing ex Boyd)
7/C/110 stayed in UK presumed to be fastback coupe
7/FS/104 fiberglass fastback (USA) May 58 (missing)
7/C/111 race chassis alloy body (USA) June 58 (Chassis SSR1 Saidel 2007 restored)
7/FS/105 1st LHD fastback (USA) Aug 58 (under restoration Saidel 2007)
7/C/112 stayed in uk presumed fastback
7/C/114 fiberglass fastback (USA) Sept 58 (Al Way USA 2007)
7/FS/106 fiberglass fastback (USA)Oct 58 (Missing)
7/C-S/113 race chassis alloy body (USA) Nov 58 (missing)

Now here is a crucial change in the chassis. 7/C-S/113 was the 1st of 2 super charged coventry climax chassis built. To accomodate for the very large Shorrock Super charger TVR moved the top rails outward as on the other (road chassis). It is my guess that at this point they decided to consolodate to one chassis. I have never seen a later car with the gussets on the outside. If anyone has please let me know the serial number(S).

7/C/115 This was 7/C/106 that was rebuilt at the factory and issued a new chassis tag. It Belong to paul hadfield until recently (UK)

7/C-S/116 supercharged race chassis (USA) Dec 58 (Orignial Saidel 2007)
7/FS/106 fiberglass fastback (USA)April 59 (Missing)

The above are all the cars that I have original invoices for. My father kept everything. Although it is possible that one or 2 sold coupes may still have come in after FS106 I just have no proof.

As of March 1959 in a letter to my dad from Bernard (TVR) they had 3 LHD cars ready to go. My father declined as he had so many problems trying to sell the earlier cars. I believe at least 2 of these cars came to the US thru US serviceman that brought them back here.

7/FS/109 (ex Alan Zepenfeld 2006)(USA)
7/FS/110 Bob Horzman 2007(USA)

My father went to UK in May 59 to join the board of directors and returned to a changed copy of his contract calling for more cars per year and decided to stop the whole project. As he recounts "Trevor and Bernard had finally gotten bid investors in on the project. At their meeting, their eyes were wide as saucers with the idea that the would sell thousands into the US market. None of them new the car business, either in the UK or the US. I felt bad for Trevor and Bernard".

Now in reference to the above chasiss, their are at least 3 known early cars as follows:
1. True prototype roadster (Scotland) climax chassis no serial number, body predates 7C105.
2. Roadster in Filby in which Trevor and his wife pose around the car.
3. Autosport 1958, Oliver harts roadster. Could be the same as 2 with some modification. Picture caption says climax powered.

I cant come up with how these cars fit into the serial numbers except that I know they are prior to 7C105 and after 7C101.


I hope the above has helped.
<SALUTE>
Alex Saidel

Edited by jomarsaidel on Saturday 10th March 14:54

[jomarsaidel]

More on Configurations:

Quarterlight windows. These are first spoken of in a letter from bernard williams to my father in jan 1959. In this letter bernard speaks about many refinements to the roadcars. One of these is the quarterlight window change. 7/FS/105 and 7/FS/106 do not have these, however 7FS109 and 7FS110 do have them. These would have been early in 1959. My father went to England in May or June of 1959 and there is a picture he has standing against a LHD coupe in front of an English Pub. This is either 7/FS/107, 108, 109, or 110. It has the front bonet stiffner, but no rear stiffner. Bernards letter also indicated a new opening in the front fenders for allowing hot air to get out of the engine bay. I'll check my photos of 7FS109, and 7FS110 to see if they have quarterlight windows, fender vent and stiffner.
Cheers,
Alex

[luckycarter]

Thanks Alex that stuff on the chassis No's etc was great and very interesting. I was wondering how many notchbacks were made, i have alwaysread and thought that there were 6, and the last became the first fastback. You list 6 in your chassis no list but what about the one in all the books registered nfr627, and 200 ETB which was in sprint in Oct 1993, this had an MG engine, in Peter Scotts article in sprint Oct 1994 on his visit to your garage, it says this car was ch/no 7/B/106. Did one of these become the green Paul Hadfield car? where do they fit in. Where is the Paul Hadfield car now?
Cheers
Rich

[jomarsaidel]

Hi Rich,
Sorry for the late response. I have the total notchbacks at 5 including Paul Hadfields car (7C106, which was rebuilt and given 7C115 in 1958). The 6th (7FS103) did become the first fastback and was sent directly to NY for the Autoshow in 1958 March and is currently in California. Now with that said I have a theory as follows:

We know for a fact that TVR used ALMOST duplicate chasiss numbers that were engine dependent. 7C101 and 7FS101 all the way until at least 7FS110 and 7C110. So it is more possible than not that they also had:
7B101, 7B102 etc. However, I have no information on any of these B chassis as we only ordered Climax chassis for race cars or special order street cars, or the FS (supercharged fords) as a low price sroad car alternative. I also wonder about the start of the chassis numbers in general.
A letter from TVR to my father contains another letter from the shipping company/customs detailing that the car must have a serial numbered chasis tag as well as a tag clearly detailing the country of origin. As we recieved both 7C101, and 7FS101 (supposedely the first of each sequence)there is an early prototype roadster in Scotland with a CLimax chassis and no serial number. In other letters from TVR to my father Bernard Williams details at least one open PROTOTYPE that was sold and being raced. So either, theye started with 7C100 and 7FS100 and possibly 7B100, or the prottypes were sold prior to the serial number system possibly invented due to the exportation process and required by customs. Also given the fact that oliver Harts roadster, the Filby roadster, and the prototype in Scotland were all Climaxs all the early 7C numbers are already in use! I know one thing for certain, one of the PROTOTYPES is in Scotland. This is a car that many people have said was cobbeled up, roof cut off etc. None of the people that have seen this car after restoration have ever seen the prerestoration photos. There are many telling facts in these photos and 1 indesputible fact that proves this car predates any other fiberglass bodied Jomar or TVR that I have seen. It is a really important historical car. The owner has never proported the car to be anything of the sort and has just presented as restored to the specs the way he got the car. Let this be a lesson to all of us. Document before restoration!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope this rambling helps, Cheers
Alex

[GBRM]

Great stuff Alex, fantastic reading.

[GTRene]

jomarsaidel said:

Ok here we go:
TVR sent my father 2 quotes for almost identical chassis.
The 1st was used for the race cars (alloy bodies) it was the same dimensionally as the road cars except that the engine bay frame tubes were narrower and the tubing was lighter gage (less weight) than the road car version. Theses upper engine bay frame tubes then had the gussets on the outside where they met the front upper torsion tube. These chassis were designated 7/C "C" for Climax. The first being 7/c/101. 7/c/102, 7/c/103, and 104 were all bare racing chassis shipped to my dad and alloy bodies built for racing. Currently I have the remains of 101 (wrecked VIR Hepenstal), am restoring 102 (Columbosian), 103 is missing in Las Vegas area, and 104 is owned by Mark Brinker. Once the suspension problems were fixed and racing success mounted my father asked TVR if they could build the alloy bodies for us. Bernard Williams (Trevors front man and still alive at 95 today)told my father that he couldnt but that fiberglass was available. Te next race chassis 7/c/105 was being built and so my father asked him to body it. It had the color (red) put into the resin to save weight but still could not compete. This was due to the fact that it could not run production (not enough prod to warrant according to SCCA) and thus ran with the alloy bodies and Loti etc. This one and only roadster brought to the US is currently owned by Jim Duncan and is vertually unaltered from original.
Anyway I digress. A month or so after 105 arrived (roadster with full doors) The 1st coupe arrived 7/FS/101. FS for super charged ford 1172. This was, believe it or not,almost the duplicat chassis except for weight and engine bay top rail position.
The climax engines performed better and thus were ordered more rapidly than the fords so more C chassis were produced than FS's in the same year.

7/C/101 race chassis alloy body (USA)(wrecked 57 VIR Heppenstahl)
7/C/102 race chassis alloy body (USA)Columbosian 57, (under restoration Saidel 2007)
7/C/103 race chassis alloy body (USA)(Missing (Las Vegas, NV)1965)
7/C/104 race chassis alloy body (USA)(Restored, Mark Brinker Texas 2007)
7/C/105 race chassis fiberglass roadster(USA)(July 57)(Orig, Jim Duncan 2007)
7/FS/101 fiberglass notchback coupe(USA)(SEPT 57)(under restoration Saidel 2007)
7/C/106 fiberglass notchback stayed in UK(Sept 57)(ex paul hadfield 2006)
7/C/107 fiberglass notchback coupe (USA) Jan 58 (Ian rainford 2007)
7/C/108 fiberglass notchback coupe (USA) Jan 58 (restored Saidel 2007)
7/FS/102 fiberglass notchback coupe (USA) Feb 58 (Missing)
7/FS/103 last notchback converted to a fastback and shipped direct to New York for the Auto Show (USA) March 1958 (Under restor Tracy Miller 2007)

Now here we have a big problem as the current owner of 7FS103 says "Hey how come my fastback is 103 and Ian rainfords notchback is 7C107. Now you all know the answer.
7/C/109 race chassis alloy body (USA) May 58(Missing ex Boyd)
7/C/110 stayed in UK presumed to be fastback coupe
7/FS/104 fiberglass fastback (USA) May 58 (missing)
7/C/111 race chassis alloy body (USA) June 58 (Chassis SSR1 Saidel 2007 restored)
7/FS/105 1st LHD fastback (USA) Aug 58 (under restoration Saidel 2007)
7/C/112 stayed in uk presumed fastback
7/C/114 fiberglass fastback (USA) Sept 58 (Al Way USA 2007)
7/FS/106 fiberglass fastback (USA)Oct 58 (Missing)
7/C-S/113 race chassis alloy body (USA) Nov 58 (missing)

Now here is a crucial change in the chassis. 7/C-S/113 was the 1st of 2 super charged coventry climax chassis built. To accomodate for the very large Shorrock Super charger TVR moved the top rails outward as on the other (road chassis). It is my guess that at this point they decided to consolodate to one chassis. I have never seen a later car with the gussets on the outside. If anyone has please let me know the serial number(S).

7/C/115 This was 7/C/106 that was rebuilt at the factory and issued a new chassis tag. It Belong to paul hadfield until recently (UK)

7/C-S/116 supercharged race chassis (USA) Dec 58 (Orignial Saidel 2007)
7/FS/106 fiberglass fastback (USA)April 59 (Missing)

The above are all the cars that I have original invoices for. My father kept everything. Although it is possible that one or 2 sold coupes may still have come in after FS106 I just have no proof.

As of March 1959 in a letter to my dad from Bernard (TVR) they had 3 LHD cars ready to go. My father declined as he had so many problems trying to sell the earlier cars. I believe at least 2 of these cars came to the US thru US serviceman that brought them back here.

7/FS/109 (ex Alan Zepenfeld 2006)(USA)
7/FS/110 Bob Horzman 2007(USA)

My father went to UK in May 59 to join the board of directors and returned to a changed copy of his contract calling for more cars per year and decided to stop the whole project. As he recounts "Trevor and Bernard had finally gotten bid investors in on the project. At their meeting, their eyes were wide as saucers with the idea that the would sell thousands into the US market. None of them new the car business, either in the UK or the US. I felt bad for Trevor and Bernard".

Now in reference to the above chasiss, their are at least 3 known early cars as follows:
1. True prototype roadster (Scotland) climax chassis no serial number, body predates 7C105.
2. Roadster in Filby in which Trevor and his wife pose around the car.
3. Autosport 1958, Oliver harts roadster. Could be the same as 2 with some modification. Picture caption says climax powered.

I cant come up with how these cars fit into the serial numbers except that I know they are prior to 7C105 and after 7C101.


I hope the above has helped.
<SALUTE>
Alex Saidel

That "7/C/112 stayed in uk presumed fastback" is currently for sale, needs total restore and is from 1958,
there is also another grantura with number 112 ist " 7/FS/112" , see here>

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

so they could built more with the same last number, but with different numbers before say the 112?