Vixen - engine swap - ideas and guidance please

[nigeljones]

Dear all,

Thanks again to all those posters helping me with guidance on my body lift. The body is off and I have had a really pleasant surprise to find a chassis in stunning condition:



Someone has been upgrading before me - I have vented front discs and modified rear ARB.





I am now starting to think through what engine to fit (and will then build the strengthened chassis, rebuilt suspension and good brakes around this). One thought is a track prepped Essex V6 from the likes or John Wade or Ric Wood or have seen a stroked engine at EssexEngines.com. Another idea is to go the 302 SBF route. I love the recent 5000M build on these forum pages and if I go that route would do it in mild form to keep heat down. I would welcome guidance from the experts here. Here are my thoughts:

- I prefer something that looks classic and fits the part (but I do not need to meet any specific race regulations) so keen to avoid a modern engine that cannot be made to look old
- I am planning to build a fast road / occasional track car. Fun, but not crazy. Ideally more than 200bhp would be fun but not looking to kill myself with a wild 300+bhp.
- I live in a hot climate so it will need a big radiator, good oil cooler and good coating on the headers to keep the heat at bay

I will probably contract out the engine build.

I know many frown on butchering the wonderful Vixens so let me reassue you that I have rescued a car that has a body in a terrible state with a good chassis and a Mazda 13b, so anything I do is an upgrade and better tribute to TVR.

Any ideas, practical guidance? Essex? SBF? Something better, more clever?

Many thanks

Nigel

[Monkeythree]

How about a Ford Duratec? Available off the shelf in the various states of tune:

http://www.burtonpower.com/parts-by-category/engin...

Tom

[nigeljones]

Hi Tom

Many thanks for the quick reply. Interesting idea, I had not thought about that. I am intrigued by the idea of having a Ford I4 which, of course, is how the car started its life. With some quick googling it seems that the Caterham CSR is using the Duratec 2.3 and it weighs about 95kg, so should not upset the balance too much. Can I get a 'classic look', I don't want it looking too modern when the bonnet is up. Perhaps with some ITB it could look the part. I have googled, does anyone know if this would fit? Anyone have a picture of the engine bay?



Nigel

[Slow M]

nigeljones said:

...Someone has been upgrading before me - I have vented front discs and modified rear ARB.

Nigel,

Your steering has also been modified, presumably to affect bump steer, with a Heim(rose) joint arrangement, and the brake lines appear to be of the braided stainless type.

Someone has performed some thoughtful modifications. I'd find out who it was, and ask them about the car.

Best,
B.

[Monkeythree]

nigeljones said:

Hi Tom

Many thanks for the quick reply. Interesting idea, I had not thought about that. I am intrigued by the idea of having a Ford I4 which, of course, is how the car started its life. With some quick googling it seems that the Caterham CSR is using the Duratec 2.3 and it weighs about 95kg, so should not upset the balance too much. Can I get a 'classic look', I don't want it looking too modern when the bonnet is up. Perhaps with some ITB it could look the part. I have googled, does anyone know if this would fit? Anyone have a picture of the engine bay?



Nigel

If you're prepared to compromise on the modernity to get closer to a classic look then perhaps a ford zetec? Retro Ford make a "BDA style" cam cover and if you ran it on twin webers it would do a passable impression of a classic motor. Inlet is on the "right" side, old ford gearboxes fit the bolt pattern.
Tom

[RCK974X]

OK, I'm sure I'll get the razz from all the classic enthusiasts, but I've put a 2.8 Cologne V6 in mine.... Why ???

Well, I had one...with a 5 speed manual box too. It fits on to the original L4 engine mounts with only a slight mod to the V6 engine brackets (2.3 Cortina ones), and fits neatly.

If I was to choose now though, I'd go for a DOHC L4 if you don't mind a 'screamer' profile (lots of rev but less low end torque), or a 302 V8 on the other extreme - a lazy but hugely gutsy profile. I think the weight balance is probably better with the L4 though....

I guess there's other in between options too - now I'm in NZ, I see that a Buick 3.8 V6 would easily go in too. I mention that because there's a huge range of parts for them in US, and of course there's a factory turbo version which develops over 200bhp (available in Aus & NZ (as Holden), US, others ?), and they are actually quite good on the gas, plentiful and cheap to buy, and rasonably classic looking.

I guess there must be a lot of others too, there's Duratec V6 engines (with quad OHC )around as well...

Edited by RCK974X on Monday 30th January 20:45

[RCK974X]

Some good points from heightswitch, which I agree with.

Yes the Cologne didn't have the 'guts' of the Essex, but is somewhat lighter, and 5 speed boxes are not easy to source for an Essex (as far as I know). the 'K' series injection is easy to wire up, and despite what people say, is pretty good overall.

302 with full Efi fuel injection is a nice beast, but very complex to wire up. If you do go for a modern Efi engine of whatever vintage and make, try to get ALL the wiring and control box(es) with it.

There is quite a bit of info around for Efi swops, obviously Ford V8 (US) and L4 (europe) are popular swops, but there is quite a bit around for some of the Jap lumps too, both 4 and 6 pot.

So see what's around, spend a bit of time, and make your choice....

[nigeljones]

Dear all,

Many thanks again for the ideas and guidance. Just to summarise as it helps get my thinking straight:

302 SBF
Merits: great sound, great power, cheap
Demerits: a lot of work (chassis, suspension and electrics)

Essex V6
Merits: period correct, great sound and great torque. EFI is easy
Demerits: heavy, limited supply of engines and tuners

Cologne V6
Merits: sort of period correct, great sound, lighter than Essex
Demerits: still heavy, asthmatic with not much power

Duratec I4
Merits: great power, light and sort of fits original TVR concept
Demerits: not cheap

Zetec I4
Merits: good power and light, cheaper than Duratec and retro look products available
Demerits: not as much power as Duratec

Duratec V6
Merits: even more power
Demerits: much heavier than I4, will it fit, is it expensive, can it be made to look retro?

Power around 200-300bhp would suit me. I am less worried about the cost but more worried about being able to make the engine look retro (that BDA rocker cover is great, wonder if I can get one made for the Duratec). I also need something that can survive in the hot climate.

Currently I am leaning towards the Cosworth Duratec I4 as this is powerful and light and with ITB could be made to look older? I see that "VIXEN STEVE" has a 2.3 Duratec Vixen so might see if I can get him to post a picture here. The fact that Caterham use it in the CSR appeals to me.

Addressing some of the questions from the posters (and adding some of my own):

Monkeythree - thanks for kicking off the debate on the Duratecs. You mention that the Zetec inlet is on the "right" side ... (I am dumb this morning) you mean it looks correct or it will fit in the engine bay?

Slow M - yes, the car has been rebuilt for the track and I have been very lucky. It was build by one guy, sold to another who couldn't fit in the car, left standing in the US and I then acquired and shipped to Asia. Unfortunately, I can admire what has been done but don't have access to the modifier

Heightswitch - you mention that Duratec induction / exhaust are revesed ... (same question as Monkeythree) you mean it does not look correct or will not fit? You were asking about the 13b .... let me hint at the answer only as this is a public forum .... but I am in Asia and to register the car it must "look the part" ...hence I would probably find it easier to make the Duratec I4 pass than the V6 (which looks way too modern for the car). Probably best left at this point but as I say would be prepared to get retro parts made as required. Here is a picture of the 13b (anyone want to buy a 13b with gearbox and HUGE holley carb?)



Thanks, Nigel

[Slow M]

RCK974X said:

...If I was to choose now though, I'd go for a DOHC L4 if you don't mind a 'screamer' profile (lots of rev but less low end torque), or a 302 V8 on the other extreme - a lazy but hugely gutsy profile. I think the weight balance is probably better with the L4 though....

Yes, I've set a very lazy red line of between 6750 and 7000 RPM for my V8.

RCK974X said:

... I see that a Buick 3.8 V6 would easily go in too.

The 3.8 turbos in the Regal GN were sometimes pushed to 1,000HP with aftermarket bits. I can't remember if racing blocks were required, for that kind of power. They're damn nice units, though.

Best,
B.

[RCK974X]

[...Yes, I've set a very lazy red line of between 6750 and 7000 RPM for my V8.....]
Oh come, on, I'd be surprised if your tuned V8 is as flat as a tuned L4 at low rpm cruise !!!

Cologne V6 - just to be clear, they aren't actually more asthmatic than the Essex in standard form, despite the siamese exhaust ports. It's a common myth. In standard form the 2.8i (e.g. Capri) was 160 bhp, compared to Essex 132, but Essex does develop a bit more torque (172 vs 162 ft lb ?) and can be tuned further.

From your profile though I'm not sure if either the Essex or the Cologne would be easy or cheap to source ??? Or did you guys get Euro Fords ??


I'm not sure about the 1000 hp Buicks - I think they had all sorts of extra bits, including welding up some of the waterways....

I did read that you can easily get 300-400 bhp on an otherwise standard turbo V6 block. I do know the Holden versions here were the same castings as the US ones. Also the T5 gbox is a standard fit..

heightswitch - Yes, some of the Efi variants have a huge number of plugs and wiring, and a carb is always simpler and more 'classic'. Again you make your choice ...

I remember one of the quotes for me was -
"Compared to a modern electronic system, a carburettor is just a calibrated fuel leak".

Edited by RCK974X on Tuesday 31st January 09:41

Edited by RCK974X on Tuesday 31st January 09:44

[Monkeythree]

As you stand facing the front of the car (as in your photo above), the Kent Crossflow engine has the inlet on the left side and the exhaust on the right. The Zetec has the same layout but the Duratec flows the other way. So when I said the Zetec inlet was on the "right" side, what I meant was the same side as the original engine.
Tom

[Slow M]

Nigel,

Have you considered doing a turbo on the 13B? The IMSA cars were amazing. Fast as stink, and wildly buzzy sounding. Good flames on overrun, too.

nigeljones said:

Unfortunately, I can admire what has been done but don't have access to the modifier

If you know where it lived, and what class(es) it raced in, you may be able to find it, and the former owner in race results listed on-line.

RCK974X said:

Oh come, on, I'd be surprised if your tuned V8 is as flat as a tuned L4 at low rpm cruise !!!

I think I misunderstood. Were you just thinking of the sound?

heightswitch said:

It may well be my age but the thing I hate most about engines these days is the mass of control boxes and wiring which seems to come with them. If I was installing any V8 then from a personal stand point It would have a 4 barrel carb on the top.

I agree ... well, except for the age thing. I'm pretending it's my good taste If I had to start over, it would be with a Fontana block, road race Demon, or Autolite I4, or Weber down draughts. Also, there'd be a Vertex magneto.

Best,
B.

[Moto]

nigeljones said:

Dear all,

I am less worried about the cost but more worried about being able to make the engine look retro (that BDA rocker cover is great, wonder if I can get one made for the Duratec).

Why not a BDA then? If it's power, the BDR will exceed 200bhp. Bolts straight in - can even use your original block. You'd have the real thing not a 'retro look'.

[GAjon]

Any good??


http://www.motorsport-sales.com/index.php?main_pag...

[Comadis]

a historic car needs a period engine...imo....

an option, to stay with a Ford V6 (cologne) but not the asthmatic 2.8L you may choose a 4L, mostly found in the ford explorer...lots of torque, same flange for gearbox as the smaller cologne engines.

or..which would be my favourite...essex engine with race injection or tripple carbs.

another period retrofit: rover v8,,,maybe a 3.9l...but modified with 4 downdraught dellorto carbs.

[Moto]

heightswitch said:

And a 20k or so depleted bank balance!!

I'm sure you could easily pay £20k but then you could spend that on a donkys doo-dah's Crossflow or Duratec. However realistically you can pick up BDA's from around the £8k mark with £12k - £15k being the higher end of normal. However if it does go wrong it won't be cheap to fix.

[phillpot]

RCK974X said:

Cologne V6 - just to be clear, they aren't actually more asthmatic than the Essex in standard form, despite the siamese exhaust ports. It's a common myth. In standard form the 2.8i (e.g. Capri) was 160 bhp, compared to Essex 132, but Essex does develop a bit more torque (172 vs 162 ft lb ?) and can be tuned further.

Finally someone defending the Cologne V6

Essex is way short of target 200+ in standard form, 2.9 cologne (six port heads) rated at 175 in the S Series, mine peaked at 184.9 with nothing more than a mild Piper cam.

[M@H]

phillpot said:

RCK974X said:

Cologne V6 - just to be clear, they aren't actually more asthmatic than the Essex in standard form, despite the siamese exhaust ports. It's a common myth. In standard form the 2.8i (e.g. Capri) was 160 bhp, compared to Essex 132, but Essex does develop a bit more torque (172 vs 162 ft lb ?) and can be tuned further.

Finally someone defending the Cologne V6

Essex is way short of target 200+ in standard form, 2.9 cologne (six port heads) rated at 175 in the S Series, mine peaked at 184.9 with nothing more than a mild Piper cam.

I also agree the cologne is a good engine and I had both 2.8 and 2.9 S Series of which the 2.9 had the edge. I would say though that the "classic look" is not going to include the 2.9 EFI setup so what you'd achieve with carbs I wouldn't like to guess at.

[M@H]

heightswitch said:

M@H said:

I also agree the cologne is a good engine and I had both 2.8 and 2.9 S Series of which the 2.9 had the edge. I would say though that the "classic look" is not going to include the 2.9 EFI setup so what you'd achieve with carbs I wouldn't like to guess at.

I never said a cologne was a particularly bad engine, though siamesed ports, interferance pitch thread tappet adjustment and 150 hp from a mechanical fuel injected lump that weighs a ton doesn't make it a good one! They are perfectly good to use if you want to build a non original car that will struggle to make 200hp, eat fuel and will have a tappety rattle heard above slowly stripping fibre timing gears

...snip...

..maybe I am missing the point.

The point was that I was just agreeing with Phil - the 2.9 is clearly not mechanical as standard in "EFI" form and as already said produces way more than 150hp, and I got 30mpg from mine. As for the cost comment, I had the opportunity to buy a whole XR4x4 2.9 for £250 not that long ago so its not exactly expensive.

Personally I'd put a v8 in this vixen anyway - its what TVR would have wanted.

[M@H]

There was an early TVR for sale on here a few years back with a 1.9 TDI in it - I think it was a Taimar from memory ??

Somehow, although eminently practical a diesel TVR just doesn't seem right!