So who buys Vixens? & What do they want?
Discussion
Recently had my car up for sale, which is a good usable car which is used at least twice a week, goes on trips to France, looks pretty good, is reasonably sound underneath and sounds great. 
Had it up for a reasonable £8500 and had loads of emails asking for pictures which showed it as exactly what it is, a good usable rare car which could be improved by somebody who wanted to do it.
I got back replies like, "It needs a full restoration" "Not as good as I was expecting" "Too much work for me" "Does it have full service history?"
What?
So who buys what these days, do people want cheap wrecks, if there any anymore? Restored cars are silly money and are they selling? Are there good usable cars for sale (well yes, there was)?
What do people want, are they frightenend if there is the slightest bit of weldable rust on a chassis?
Every time I put it up for sale, I get in it and it's like falling in love again and I wonder whatever possessed me to do it, as chances are if it went I'd never get another. Even if a nice modern V8 Griff replaced it, it wouldn't be the same.
Had it up for a reasonable £8500 and had loads of emails asking for pictures which showed it as exactly what it is, a good usable rare car which could be improved by somebody who wanted to do it.
I got back replies like, "It needs a full restoration" "Not as good as I was expecting" "Too much work for me" "Does it have full service history?"
What?
So who buys what these days, do people want cheap wrecks, if there any anymore? Restored cars are silly money and are they selling? Are there good usable cars for sale (well yes, there was)?
What do people want, are they frightenend if there is the slightest bit of weldable rust on a chassis?
Every time I put it up for sale, I get in it and it's like falling in love again and I wonder whatever possessed me to do it, as chances are if it went I'd never get another. Even if a nice modern V8 Griff replaced it, it wouldn't be the same.
how COULD you!!!
.
Ten years ago a very good 350i would have cost £4000 and a Vixen £8500 say. Now the 350i is the same money and Vixens appear to have shot up in value. I guess that this means that they are no longer attractive to those who would like to drive them everyday since there are many cheaper alternatives, even Chimaeras. As you no doubt know the cost of a full restoration on a good car is usually not much less than that for a wreck so there's not much point in paying extra for a reasonable condition car. In short I think that you're trying to sell to an odd market.
If I was somehow parted from my Chim I have promised myself a Vixen (S1 please!). I would personally want a fairly complete car in need of restoration so I could learn a thing or 2 and have it the way I want it.
I guess the people enquiring about your car dont fancy getting their hands dirty, which is probably not likely with a 40 year old car. Looks great by the way.
I guess the people enquiring about your car dont fancy getting their hands dirty, which is probably not likely with a 40 year old car. Looks great by the way.
I recently bought an early M Series - not that I don't like Vixens - it was purely because I just discovered the car by accident (not literally) without really looking for one. I do, however, remember several people at the time saying "either spend top money on a car that is absolutely mint, or spend as little as possible on a wreck with the view to restoring it or break for spares. It's better to avoid all cars that fall in between these two categories".
Unfortunately, it sounds like most people share this view in the "odd market", and I'm not saying I think that's a good thing.
Unfortunately, it sounds like most people share this view in the "odd market", and I'm not saying I think that's a good thing.
I am Odd..So agree with the Buy low or buy high and nowt in between argument here...
The problem today is that truly lovely cars are often felt too expensive at say 12 - 15k, despite such a truly lovely car often costing far more than that to restore and still being less money than the average new shopping runabout..Basket case cars have now become more expensive, Due to johnny foreigner often pushing up market prices or speculators who often buy to sell straight on after adding a couple of grand...Often this is the only way into a marque for some people so the market for the low end cars is the only option for some and they just resign themselves to paying too much for a car they really want.
That leaves the middle?? The cars here are often older restorations, well used cars which will need some restoration, or thinly disguised basket cases. The problem with these cars is that they are now pitched at a level which is more than someone would justify to buy and run for a couple of years before restoring, They are also more than most people would be prepared to pay for a classic car...For £4k you can now buy a rotten vixen or a concours MG Midget, MGB etc etc..Ok the comparison to a through an through TVR nut isn't a good one but that is also a point...Todays classic car buyer is very different to the classic car buyer of 10 - 20 years ago. The TVR hairy arsed grumpy git who likes to do the odd bit of welding, glassing and mechanical work are pretty few and far between. in fact Steve will be the first to agree he is very much now in the minority as a TVR enthusiast
In todays mass market you just have to look at your £8.5k vixen which is an average representative of a useable car then look at what else you can buy for £8.5k.. The reality is that their are less true TVR enthusiasts than you may think and some very fickle image concious "fair weather" types who buy cars for a couple of years before moving onto the next fad.
Chims and griffs are now firmly into the restoration / Banger phase of their lives and if you go to any specialist you will see how many re-chassis and major outrigger jobs are going on. The problem in my eyes is that you have less able people owning such cars which is also pushing prices up in relative terms, A lot of TVR types now don't have the ability to crawl around under a car and a lot more folk are taken in by the pretty placcy shapes and colours before paying too much. Average Joe looks at your vixen and then looks at a V8 Chim even with rotten outriggers and...No contest
There are some however who want to see the values carry on going up and up..there are plusses and minuses to this.
There are 2 reasons why I am building a TVR racing car.
1. I like TVR and the giant killing brutal looks
2. I cannot afford a Lola T70
N.
The problem today is that truly lovely cars are often felt too expensive at say 12 - 15k, despite such a truly lovely car often costing far more than that to restore and still being less money than the average new shopping runabout..Basket case cars have now become more expensive, Due to johnny foreigner often pushing up market prices or speculators who often buy to sell straight on after adding a couple of grand...Often this is the only way into a marque for some people so the market for the low end cars is the only option for some and they just resign themselves to paying too much for a car they really want.
That leaves the middle?? The cars here are often older restorations, well used cars which will need some restoration, or thinly disguised basket cases. The problem with these cars is that they are now pitched at a level which is more than someone would justify to buy and run for a couple of years before restoring, They are also more than most people would be prepared to pay for a classic car...For £4k you can now buy a rotten vixen or a concours MG Midget, MGB etc etc..Ok the comparison to a through an through TVR nut isn't a good one but that is also a point...Todays classic car buyer is very different to the classic car buyer of 10 - 20 years ago. The TVR hairy arsed grumpy git who likes to do the odd bit of welding, glassing and mechanical work are pretty few and far between. in fact Steve will be the first to agree he is very much now in the minority as a TVR enthusiast
In todays mass market you just have to look at your £8.5k vixen which is an average representative of a useable car then look at what else you can buy for £8.5k.. The reality is that their are less true TVR enthusiasts than you may think and some very fickle image concious "fair weather" types who buy cars for a couple of years before moving onto the next fad.
Chims and griffs are now firmly into the restoration / Banger phase of their lives and if you go to any specialist you will see how many re-chassis and major outrigger jobs are going on. The problem in my eyes is that you have less able people owning such cars which is also pushing prices up in relative terms, A lot of TVR types now don't have the ability to crawl around under a car and a lot more folk are taken in by the pretty placcy shapes and colours before paying too much. Average Joe looks at your vixen and then looks at a V8 Chim even with rotten outriggers and...No contest
There are some however who want to see the values carry on going up and up..there are plusses and minuses to this.
There are 2 reasons why I am building a TVR racing car.
1. I like TVR and the giant killing brutal looks
2. I cannot afford a Lola T70
N.
Edited by heightswitch on Friday 2nd December 19:19
Edited by heightswitch on Friday 2nd December 19:27
Edited by heightswitch on Friday 2nd December 19:31
JR said:
... Vixens appear to have shot up in value.
Does this include things like shipping from NZ ?Have you guys any idea how much a fully restored S3, with some non-standard features, would go for in UK ?
Vixen S3, 1972, New chassis from DG, New bonnet moulding, new doors, TR6 diff, 2.8V6 Efi (Ex Granada) 5 speed type 9 'box, central locking (Cortina 4 locks) , Smiths Gauges, etc,etc. It's got the 5 original wheels too. On original engine mounts, rear has extra tubes for the 'M' series diff carrier (done by DG also) .
I would be very interested in anyone's estimates...If the non-standard lowers the price a bit, I'm still interested.
RCK974X said:
Does this include things like shipping from NZ ?
Have you guys any idea how much a fully restored S3, with some non-standard features, would go for in UK ?
Vixen S3, 1972, New chassis from DG, New bonnet moulding, new doors, TR6 diff, 2.8V6 Efi (Ex Granada) 5 speed type 9 'box, central locking (Cortina 4 locks) , Smiths Gauges, etc,etc. It's got the 5 original wheels too. On original engine mounts, rear has extra tubes for the 'M' series diff carrier (done by DG also) .
I would be very interested in anyone's estimates...If the non-standard lowers the price a bit, I'm still interested.
£2k you have bastardised a lovely classic car with a load of Non std bits!!Have you guys any idea how much a fully restored S3, with some non-standard features, would go for in UK ?
Vixen S3, 1972, New chassis from DG, New bonnet moulding, new doors, TR6 diff, 2.8V6 Efi (Ex Granada) 5 speed type 9 'box, central locking (Cortina 4 locks) , Smiths Gauges, etc,etc. It's got the 5 original wheels too. On original engine mounts, rear has extra tubes for the 'M' series diff carrier (done by DG also) .
I would be very interested in anyone's estimates...If the non-standard lowers the price a bit, I'm still interested.
N.
Interesting discussion.
To me, Vixens seem to fall into a bit of a wierd "no mans land" on the borders of both the 60's and the 70's with the very 60's (and seemingly highly sought after) Grantura preceding the model and the very 70's (and from what I can tell, not especially sought after) M series succeeding the model. Couple this with a very small population of cars with which to define "the market" and it becomes quite tricky to define the market for any one car, or indeed the Vixen series as a whole.
So, back to the OP's original question of what do Vixen buyers want. Well, the honest answer is that I don't know because I don't have enough experience of this tiny market to know. But from what I can observe, I would say that there is always going to be market for restoration cases. Why? because there are plenty of people who like the idea of a project and are prepared to accept that they not going to get a financial return on the investment they make. Then at the top end, like for any classic car, there seem to be people who wouldn't know how to start a restoration but have the means to pay for one which has already been done and are prepared to pay for someone elses work.
The middle market? Well I think that is where the majority of existing cars are currently in the hands of real enthusiasts. People who love their cars and don't particularly want to part with them (i put myself in this category). To me, it doesn't appear that too many cars change hands within this category. Seems they either get neglected and eventually slip down into "restoration case" or get restored and sold as "premium" or they "soldier on" with the current owner for many many years.
My two penny's worth.
To me, Vixens seem to fall into a bit of a wierd "no mans land" on the borders of both the 60's and the 70's with the very 60's (and seemingly highly sought after) Grantura preceding the model and the very 70's (and from what I can tell, not especially sought after) M series succeeding the model. Couple this with a very small population of cars with which to define "the market" and it becomes quite tricky to define the market for any one car, or indeed the Vixen series as a whole.
So, back to the OP's original question of what do Vixen buyers want. Well, the honest answer is that I don't know because I don't have enough experience of this tiny market to know. But from what I can observe, I would say that there is always going to be market for restoration cases. Why? because there are plenty of people who like the idea of a project and are prepared to accept that they not going to get a financial return on the investment they make. Then at the top end, like for any classic car, there seem to be people who wouldn't know how to start a restoration but have the means to pay for one which has already been done and are prepared to pay for someone elses work.
The middle market? Well I think that is where the majority of existing cars are currently in the hands of real enthusiasts. People who love their cars and don't particularly want to part with them (i put myself in this category). To me, it doesn't appear that too many cars change hands within this category. Seems they either get neglected and eventually slip down into "restoration case" or get restored and sold as "premium" or they "soldier on" with the current owner for many many years.
My two penny's worth.
heightswitch said:
£2k you have bastardised a lovely classic car with a load of Non std bits!!
N.
Well that's still more than I paid for it !! (OK it was a long time ago) N.Wot, you mean I should have kept the weak spitfire diff, the horrible door locks bastardised with a bent pin, the pathetic heater, and the 1600 xflow screaming away at 70mph ?
Nah, it's a lot more fun with the V6 in it, and at least I've kept the outside original...
Anyone else ?
Edited by RCK974X on Saturday 3rd December 03:16
I believe that most of these people especialy from the continent trying to buy a "classic" think they are very clever because they are looking for a cheap "leftover" which noone wants any more and think you have to sell the car because you need cash. They think they can make a good profit in their homecountry when they clean it up and offer it for sale. I made these experiences 20 years ago in Germany and have therefore never offered any classic car again. And mostly they do not have any knowledge about the car and the restoration so that it must be a 200% good deal that they take the risk. I could write a book about these experiences but I doubt anyone would be interested in reading. But the main problem is that classic car understanding in England is much different from that on the continent. In UK classic cars are used for pleasure and fun on the continent they have classic cars as an investment or for speculation mostly.
K.W.
K.W.
RCK974X said:
Does this include things like shipping from NZ ?
Have you guys any idea how much a fully restored S3, with some non-standard features, would go for in UK ?
Vixen S3, 1972, New chassis from DG, New bonnet moulding, new doors, TR6 diff, 2.8V6 Efi (Ex Granada) 5 speed type 9 'box, central locking (Cortina 4 locks) , Smiths Gauges, etc,etc. It's got the 5 original wheels too. On original engine mounts, rear has extra tubes for the 'M' series diff carrier (done by DG also) .
I would be very interested in anyone's estimates...If the non-standard lowers the price a bit, I'm still interested.
Just out of interest, does the old Granada lump sound good once it's mated up to a decent exhaust system? It's just that with only hearing them whisper from under all the sound clading and deadening materials used on the old granny's I couldn't imaging it having a loud V6 rasp!Have you guys any idea how much a fully restored S3, with some non-standard features, would go for in UK ?
Vixen S3, 1972, New chassis from DG, New bonnet moulding, new doors, TR6 diff, 2.8V6 Efi (Ex Granada) 5 speed type 9 'box, central locking (Cortina 4 locks) , Smiths Gauges, etc,etc. It's got the 5 original wheels too. On original engine mounts, rear has extra tubes for the 'M' series diff carrier (done by DG also) .
I would be very interested in anyone's estimates...If the non-standard lowers the price a bit, I'm still interested.
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