Berkeley Project Three Wheeler Development
Discussion
I am a recently retired Accountant with a penchant for Kit cars I have built over 20 since 1965.
Kit cars and in particular three wheelers fascinate me.
I am looking for a three wheeler project which I after a bit of cogitation should be based on the Berkeley form, I think?
I have a good experience of building kit cars the engineering side does not concern me. Making the right choice of donor vehicle and overall design does concern me hence this post.
I would welcome any thoughts or suggestions on what might make the best basis for a three wheeler.
My thoughts are Berkeley simply because this obviates the problem of bodywork, the Berkeley is a decent looking car and the lightweight alloy and glassfibre monococque body appeals.
The Berkeley also represents something of the shape I want. I want a smooth flowing aerodynamic shape and design not a period look with the aerodynamics of a brick.
I favour a lightweight motorcycle set up probably the Kawasaki 1400 or Suzuki 1400. It will be fast but I would really like it to handle well and corner well. Now that's not so easy. Speed is` one thing nimble handling and good looks are much more challenging. And that is my aim.
I am interested in planning this project properly and I would welcome any thoughts from Pistonheads readers.
Is the Berkeley the best way?
Does anyone know of a car awaiting rebuilding?
Is there another frame I could consider?
Has anyone done this to date?
Do you think this is the answer to a decent three wheeler?
Are there any alternatives I ought to consider?
Am I going about this in the wrong way?
All suggestions gratefully received and thanks for reading.
Kit cars and in particular three wheelers fascinate me.
I am looking for a three wheeler project which I after a bit of cogitation should be based on the Berkeley form, I think?
I have a good experience of building kit cars the engineering side does not concern me. Making the right choice of donor vehicle and overall design does concern me hence this post.
I would welcome any thoughts or suggestions on what might make the best basis for a three wheeler.
My thoughts are Berkeley simply because this obviates the problem of bodywork, the Berkeley is a decent looking car and the lightweight alloy and glassfibre monococque body appeals.
The Berkeley also represents something of the shape I want. I want a smooth flowing aerodynamic shape and design not a period look with the aerodynamics of a brick.
I favour a lightweight motorcycle set up probably the Kawasaki 1400 or Suzuki 1400. It will be fast but I would really like it to handle well and corner well. Now that's not so easy. Speed is` one thing nimble handling and good looks are much more challenging. And that is my aim.
I am interested in planning this project properly and I would welcome any thoughts from Pistonheads readers.
Is the Berkeley the best way?
Does anyone know of a car awaiting rebuilding?
Is there another frame I could consider?
Has anyone done this to date?
Do you think this is the answer to a decent three wheeler?
Are there any alternatives I ought to consider?
Am I going about this in the wrong way?
All suggestions gratefully received and thanks for reading.
Steffan.
Very interested in your project.
A few things i would personally consider...
If you want to use the motorbike setup with the engine in the front it will need quite a long nose to accomodate the physically bigger engine as well as the steering rack and leg room. The body of a berkeley would need to be heavily modified if you wanted to go down this route. The same applies if you wanted to have the engine mid mounted, it would need to be a lot longer.
The berkeley isn't very wide, so it would need to be widened quite a lot to accomodate a wider track to aid the handling. I think i would personally make a custom chassis that shares none of the original componants and just bolt on a berkeley body.
Personally, i think i would steer away from putting a bike engine into a berkeley, it creates a lot of problems that wont really be worth it IMO. The way a berkeley looks the way it is is down to it being front engined. I would personally try and keep it this way and also have it front wheel drive.
There is a really nice heavily modified T60 for sale on car and classic at the moment...
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C197982/
Notice how much the new engine sticks out of the bonnet, this would probably be similar for a bike engine, but it would need to be RWD due to space. But then you have the issue of getting the power to the back wheel, which would need to be wider and the suspension would need completely uprating.
The other problem that you might come across, is if you are altering it that much, you may be required to have an MSVA. You may struggle to find e-marked glass which is a requirement for the test.
Its an interesting project no doubt, but i personally do not think that fitting a bike engine into a berkeley is a particularly wise idea.
Unforunately there are not many three wheelers i can think of that are ripe for modernising.
on a little side note
you mention you are after streamilined bodies. If you take a berkeley, the frontal area is much larger than that of something like a pembleton/JZR. The underneath will be less efficient as there is more bodywork, and the undersides of cars were not designed with aerodynamic flow in mind. The upright screen will cause more disturbance than one person and the big grill will be like a big inverted solid umbrella. Clearly, these can be adressed, but as standard i wouldn't have thought a berkeley was that much more eficient than a morgan-a-like. the drag co-efficient may be less, but the drag, i would have thought is more. (drag co-efficient is measured against frontal area and length)
Very interested in your project.
A few things i would personally consider...
If you want to use the motorbike setup with the engine in the front it will need quite a long nose to accomodate the physically bigger engine as well as the steering rack and leg room. The body of a berkeley would need to be heavily modified if you wanted to go down this route. The same applies if you wanted to have the engine mid mounted, it would need to be a lot longer.
The berkeley isn't very wide, so it would need to be widened quite a lot to accomodate a wider track to aid the handling. I think i would personally make a custom chassis that shares none of the original componants and just bolt on a berkeley body.
Personally, i think i would steer away from putting a bike engine into a berkeley, it creates a lot of problems that wont really be worth it IMO. The way a berkeley looks the way it is is down to it being front engined. I would personally try and keep it this way and also have it front wheel drive.
There is a really nice heavily modified T60 for sale on car and classic at the moment...
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C197982/
Notice how much the new engine sticks out of the bonnet, this would probably be similar for a bike engine, but it would need to be RWD due to space. But then you have the issue of getting the power to the back wheel, which would need to be wider and the suspension would need completely uprating.
The other problem that you might come across, is if you are altering it that much, you may be required to have an MSVA. You may struggle to find e-marked glass which is a requirement for the test.
Its an interesting project no doubt, but i personally do not think that fitting a bike engine into a berkeley is a particularly wise idea.
Unforunately there are not many three wheelers i can think of that are ripe for modernising.
on a little side note
you mention you are after streamilined bodies. If you take a berkeley, the frontal area is much larger than that of something like a pembleton/JZR. The underneath will be less efficient as there is more bodywork, and the undersides of cars were not designed with aerodynamic flow in mind. The upright screen will cause more disturbance than one person and the big grill will be like a big inverted solid umbrella. Clearly, these can be adressed, but as standard i wouldn't have thought a berkeley was that much more eficient than a morgan-a-like. the drag co-efficient may be less, but the drag, i would have thought is more. (drag co-efficient is measured against frontal area and length)
Very interesting. Very helpful.
You have given me much food for thought.
I can see from the sales ad the problems you are describing.
I had better do some more research. I will start this process.
I wonder if there is a better profile shape on the market.
In the light of the remarks of Slomax I will take a look at the Berkley for sale and the Pemberton. You could be right.
You have given me much food for thought.
I can see from the sales ad the problems you are describing.
I had better do some more research. I will start this process.
I wonder if there is a better profile shape on the market.
In the light of the remarks of Slomax I will take a look at the Berkley for sale and the Pemberton. You could be right.
Steffan said:
Very interesting. Very helpful.
You have given me much food for thought.
I can see from the sales ad the problems you are describing.
I had better do some more research. I will start this process.
I wonder if there is a better profile shape on the market.
In the light of the remarks of Slomax I will take a look at the Berkley for sale and the Pemberton. You could be right.
Maybe this could work for you, a Berkley T60 with a Mini engine:You have given me much food for thought.
I can see from the sales ad the problems you are describing.
I had better do some more research. I will start this process.
I wonder if there is a better profile shape on the market.
In the light of the remarks of Slomax I will take a look at the Berkley for sale and the Pemberton. You could be right.
http://cgi.ebay.it/berkeley-t60-mini-1275-micro-3-...
fuoriserie said:
Maybe this could work for you, a Berkley T60 with a Mini engine:
http://cgi.ebay.it/berkeley-t60-mini-1275-micro-3-...
Thanks I am In Italy I will have a look when I return tomorrow.http://cgi.ebay.it/berkeley-t60-mini-1275-micro-3-...
The T60 would be fine but the Mini drive train is not.
I am the worlds biggest A series fan a Clive Trickey convert.
But cast iron and a weighty lump in a lightweight three wheeler.
A bike engine would be better but the frame etc may well be worth pursuing.
Thank you Steffan
Steffan said:
Thanks I am In Italy I will have a look when I return tomorrow.
The T60 would be fine but the Mini drive train is not.
I am the worlds biggest A series fan a Clive Trickey convert.
But cast iron and a weighty lump in a lightweight three wheeler.
A bike engine would be better but the frame etc may well be worth pursuing.
Thank you Steffan
There a number of bike engine conversions that will fit into a mini subframe tho'The T60 would be fine but the Mini drive train is not.
I am the worlds biggest A series fan a Clive Trickey convert.
But cast iron and a weighty lump in a lightweight three wheeler.
A bike engine would be better but the frame etc may well be worth pursuing.
Thank you Steffan
I know this is a very old thread but thought it might amuse...
three months ago I took a Berkeley T60 (engine was wrecked) and put a Honda CB400NB super dream engine in, and drove it 20,000km from england to mongolia...
Just got home but I can confirm a bike engine does fit and it does work..
three months ago I took a Berkeley T60 (engine was wrecked) and put a Honda CB400NB super dream engine in, and drove it 20,000km from england to mongolia...
Just got home but I can confirm a bike engine does fit and it does work..
willbaz said:
I know this is a very old thread but thought it might amuse...
three months ago I took a Berkeley T60 (engine was wrecked) and put a Honda CB400NB super dream engine in, and drove it 20,000km from england to mongolia...
Just got home but I can confirm a bike engine does fit and it does work..
What a remarkable achievement and what an interesting project! Given the brilliant original design of the Berkeley by Lawrie Bond the success of seriously modified improvements that must have been incorporated into the mix, ths is an outstanding achievement and traveling 20,000 KM in the car is magnificent. three months ago I took a Berkeley T60 (engine was wrecked) and put a Honda CB400NB super dream engine in, and drove it 20,000km from england to mongolia...
Just got home but I can confirm a bike engine does fit and it does work..
Certainly a story that should be told, please!! What a Journey and what an achievement!!
Well done, Sir!!
Thanks for the interest Steffan, if you have the time and are really interested all the details of my build and journey can be found here:
https://www.facebook.com/TeamHileyUnlikely/
It was certainly a challenge as these car were never designed for serious mileage let alone deserts, mountains and some of the disastrously bad "roads" encountered in Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Turmenistan and Mongolia.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamHileyUnlikely/
It was certainly a challenge as these car were never designed for serious mileage let alone deserts, mountains and some of the disastrously bad "roads" encountered in Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Turmenistan and Mongolia.
willbaz said:
I know this is a very old thread but thought it might amuse...
three months ago I took a Berkeley T60 (engine was wrecked) and put a Honda CB400NB super dream engine in, and drove it 20,000km from england to mongolia...
Just got home but I can confirm a bike engine does fit and it does work..
willbaz welcome to the forum and what a fantastic trip and experience !..three months ago I took a Berkeley T60 (engine was wrecked) and put a Honda CB400NB super dream engine in, and drove it 20,000km from england to mongolia...
Just got home but I can confirm a bike engine does fit and it does work..
Will check your facebook page for more details and info .
Cheers
Italo
What a totally exceptional undertaking this whole package has become!
Magnificent efforts and a remarkable achievement from start to finish!
The benefis to the Parkinson's charity are an excellent result and I thoroughly commend you and your colleagues for the efforts needed the stamina required and above all, the results. Breathtaking I suggest!
I am avidly reading all the Facebook articles and I am just amazed at your joint and several commitment and determination.
I do hope that ths achievement does attract widespread support. It certainly should!
I do think this deserves widespread coverage!!
Well done again!
Magnificent efforts and a remarkable achievement from start to finish!
The benefis to the Parkinson's charity are an excellent result and I thoroughly commend you and your colleagues for the efforts needed the stamina required and above all, the results. Breathtaking I suggest!
I am avidly reading all the Facebook articles and I am just amazed at your joint and several commitment and determination.
I do hope that ths achievement does attract widespread support. It certainly should!
I do think this deserves widespread coverage!!
Well done again!
What a totally exceptional undertaking this whole package has become!
Magnificent efforts and a remarkable achievement from start to finish!
The benefis to the Parkinson's charity are an excellent result and I thoroughly commend you and your colleagues for the efforts needed the stamina required and above all, the results. Breathtaking I suggest!
I am avidly reading all the Facebook articles and I am just amazed at your joint and several commitment and determination.
I do hope that ths achievement does attract widespread support. It certainly should!
I do think this deserves widespread coverage!!
Well done again!
Magnificent efforts and a remarkable achievement from start to finish!
The benefis to the Parkinson's charity are an excellent result and I thoroughly commend you and your colleagues for the efforts needed the stamina required and above all, the results. Breathtaking I suggest!
I am avidly reading all the Facebook articles and I am just amazed at your joint and several commitment and determination.
I do hope that ths achievement does attract widespread support. It certainly should!
I do think this deserves widespread coverage!!
Well done again!
crikey - that was some trip! Congratulations.
Back to topic....... My thought would be to use a modern FWD setup with a lightweight engine and box. I suspect one of the challenges would be finding one which will give a low COG (maybe Fiat 500?). Then it's just a simple case of 'converting it to 3 wheels'
Strangely enough I was idly viewing small cars in a car park and wondering about the prospect of 3 wheel conversion a few weeks ago (never having noticed this thread!).
To sumarise... I'd go for low, lightweight powertrain FWD, and use as much as possible from the donor and create either a steel spaceframe chassis and modern bodystyle or (the more expensive/difficult route) a GRP monocoque.
Back to topic....... My thought would be to use a modern FWD setup with a lightweight engine and box. I suspect one of the challenges would be finding one which will give a low COG (maybe Fiat 500?). Then it's just a simple case of 'converting it to 3 wheels'
Strangely enough I was idly viewing small cars in a car park and wondering about the prospect of 3 wheel conversion a few weeks ago (never having noticed this thread!).
To sumarise... I'd go for low, lightweight powertrain FWD, and use as much as possible from the donor and create either a steel spaceframe chassis and modern bodystyle or (the more expensive/difficult route) a GRP monocoque.
If you are still interested Steffan I can put you in touch with someone who makes the body shells for the Berkeley three wheel and four wheel models, you can then adapt to whatever block you want to drop into it, unless you need to start with something which has a registration number
theelaga said:
If you are still interested Steffan I can put you in touch with someone who makes the body shells for the Berkeley three wheel and four wheel models, you can then adapt to whatever block you want to drop into it, unless you need to start with something which has a registration number
Well what an opportunity!As it happens I am looking for a project again and I have PM,d you immediately.
I look forward to seeing whether this is for me.
Steffan said:
theelaga said:
If you are still interested Steffan I can put you in touch with someone who makes the body shells for the Berkeley three wheel and four wheel models, you can then adapt to whatever block you want to drop into it, unless you need to start with something which has a registration number
Well what an opportunity!As it happens I am looking for a project again and I have PM,d you immediately.
I look forward to seeing whether this is for me.
Fastpedeller said:
crikey - that was some trip! Congratulations.
Back to topic....... My thought would be to use a modern FWD setup with a lightweight engine and box. I suspect one of the challenges would be finding one which will give a low COG (maybe Fiat 500?). Then it's just a simple case of 'converting it to 3 wheels'
Strangely enough I was idly viewing small cars in a car park and wondering about the prospect of 3 wheel conversion a few weeks ago (never having noticed this thread!).
To sumarise... I'd go for low, lightweight powertrain FWD, and use as much as possible from the donor and create either a steel spaceframe chassis and modern bodystyle or (the more expensive/difficult route) a GRP monocoque.
I agree with you, that a Fiat Cinquecento engine( the old Fiat Fire would work fine)....or even something like the Daewoo Matiz 3cylinder (Suzuki Alto engine....) would work, but why not consider also the Toyota Yaris Mk1 3cylinder engine also, or a Nissan Micra ?....there are quite a few modern engine donors available and fit the concept really well, but then you have to consider the potential kitcar market and things change perspective slightly....how many would be interested and really would buy the kit ? a modern or retro design ? would the business be viable ?....from my research it seems like retro designs have more potential salaes( see the Triking, Morgan, than modern....but I like the idea very much...Back to topic....... My thought would be to use a modern FWD setup with a lightweight engine and box. I suspect one of the challenges would be finding one which will give a low COG (maybe Fiat 500?). Then it's just a simple case of 'converting it to 3 wheels'
Strangely enough I was idly viewing small cars in a car park and wondering about the prospect of 3 wheel conversion a few weeks ago (never having noticed this thread!).
To sumarise... I'd go for low, lightweight powertrain FWD, and use as much as possible from the donor and create either a steel spaceframe chassis and modern bodystyle or (the more expensive/difficult route) a GRP monocoque.
I've been trying to trace my dad's red Berkerley T60 that he bought new in 1960 and sold in 1968. I remember it well as a child - sitting on the parcel self with my bother and no seat belts! I also remember the Excelsior engine making an awful racket! Having built my red Cobra (featured on this site with the GTE engine fitted to it) I'm sure my dad's car was a big factor in me building the Cobra and even choosing to spray it red.
I would love to be able to trace it. I would even consider buying it and restoring it. I got so far with the Berkerley Enthusiasts Club who said it had been bought by someone in Nottinghamshire who modified it for racing in the 70s. They promised to put me in touch with someone who they thought knew more about it but then went quiet on me. They no longer respond to my emails that ask if they can still help me. It's been a couple of years since I've heard.
Can anyone help me trace it? It was registered as 740 HTO. I would be grateful for any info on what happened to it.
I would love to be able to trace it. I would even consider buying it and restoring it. I got so far with the Berkerley Enthusiasts Club who said it had been bought by someone in Nottinghamshire who modified it for racing in the 70s. They promised to put me in touch with someone who they thought knew more about it but then went quiet on me. They no longer respond to my emails that ask if they can still help me. It's been a couple of years since I've heard.
Can anyone help me trace it? It was registered as 740 HTO. I would be grateful for any info on what happened to it.
Edited by Cobra Curves on Sunday 8th January 18:11
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff