FWD kit concept - initial rendering
Discussion
I'd originally posted this on the "who makes a transverse engined kit?" thread but in the interests of stopping my bad habit of thread hijacking, I'll start afresh.
In the original thread I'd grudgingly agreed to put aside my unreasonable opposition to FWD kits and try to design a new low-cost kit based on one donor car which uses as much as reasonably possible from that donor.
The car I've tentatively designed is below:
Minor changes are being looked at (ex-biker wants round lights
) and I'm now working on a drawing with a windscreen instead of a full cage.
Suggestions and feedback welcome...
Is this concept any good in your opinion - and if not, what would you prefer to see?
Is it too "ordinary" looking?
Are there any styling ideas which can be improved on?
Would you prefer a screen, doors, boot and roof or would only a screen do?
Would you buy a FWD kit and then spend money on more power, adjustable suspension, better brakes etc, or would you prefer a RWD / mid engined kit to a lower spec?
BTW I can happily do a transverse mid engined design instead... depends what you say!
Thanks for looking!
In the original thread I'd grudgingly agreed to put aside my unreasonable opposition to FWD kits and try to design a new low-cost kit based on one donor car which uses as much as reasonably possible from that donor.
The car I've tentatively designed is below:
Minor changes are being looked at (ex-biker wants round lights
) and I'm now working on a drawing with a windscreen instead of a full cage. Suggestions and feedback welcome...
Is this concept any good in your opinion - and if not, what would you prefer to see?
Is it too "ordinary" looking?
Are there any styling ideas which can be improved on?
Would you prefer a screen, doors, boot and roof or would only a screen do?
Would you buy a FWD kit and then spend money on more power, adjustable suspension, better brakes etc, or would you prefer a RWD / mid engined kit to a lower spec?
BTW I can happily do a transverse mid engined design instead... depends what you say!
Thanks for looking!
Jay, that does look good, the rear looks high enough to take a rear/mid engine layout, so the overall appearance wouldn't have to change too much?
With the front lights, how about a cluster using small lights, similar to what you see on the newer tvrs?
Personally my preference would be for a mid engined car
With the front lights, how about a cluster using small lights, similar to what you see on the newer tvrs?
Personally my preference would be for a mid engined car
I like it too, although it does look reminiscent of a lot of recent production models (mk 4/5 eescort springs to mind). Still a very impressive design
Have you thought of a coupe design? Would accommodate that mid engined layout nicely under the rear window. I guess the gear change is the main issue against mid engined..
Have you thought of a coupe design? Would accommodate that mid engined layout nicely under the rear window. I guess the gear change is the main issue against mid engined..
peetbee said:
Personally my preference would be for a mid engined car
Why?
tigerk said:
Have you thought of a coupe design? Would accommodate that mid engined layout nicely under the rear window. I guess the gear change is the main issue against mid engined..
In the interest of budget, yes but if mid engined is preferred . . . . .
Will it sell well as a front transverse engined car or is it better to increase the selling cost to go for the mid engined design?
My own opinion is to keep the budget down by going for the former. Also lots of companies are doing the mid engined option.
>> Edited by Ex-Biker on Monday 26th January 18:35
For a sportscar, I've always felt that putting the power through the front wheels wouldn't give the traction or handling that I'd be after. Which end is the engine on the 5exi again? 
If you're not doing a sportscar, but something along the lines of the Quantum, then I'd be happier with front wheel drive.
I'm not sure that it would be that much more expensive to go midengined, it should only be the cost of the front suspension & gear linkage that would push the price up. Unless I'm being too simplistic?
Previous attempts at front wheel drive cars don't seem to have been big sellers, although the right design could change that?
>> Edited by peetbee on Monday 26th January 19:47
If you're not doing a sportscar, but something along the lines of the Quantum, then I'd be happier with front wheel drive.
I'm not sure that it would be that much more expensive to go midengined, it should only be the cost of the front suspension & gear linkage that would push the price up. Unless I'm being too simplistic?
Previous attempts at front wheel drive cars don't seem to have been big sellers, although the right design could change that?
>> Edited by peetbee on Monday 26th January 19:47
I'm looking at using round lights instead of the Laguna ones in there at the moment - I agree 100% that using production lamps makes the design look ordinary / production-based so the front of this will change a fair bit. I thought it looked a bit like the front of my Peugeot 405...
There's plenty of room at the rear and that space is earmarked for bootspace, soft top storage and perhaps plus-two seats. Yes it could probably house the engine and gearbox assembly, but the whole design is drawn up as a result of the high bonnet line required by a front-mounted transverse powertrain so the styling lines would change from front to back!
Going for a mid engined layout invokes additional cost due to a second set of front uprights, front wheel bearing / hub inserts, rear calipers, accelerator and clutch cables, gearshift linkage, radiator and brake servo hoses, and in this case front wishbones.
The idea behind this concept - remember that I was sceptical about the idea at the outset - was to produce a very low cost design that required a minimum number of kit components, a minimum number of bespoke and new parts, and a maximum number of donor bits. This design uses all the Fiesta donor parts including struts, wishbones, rear stub axles, steering gear, engine and box plus all ancilliaries, brake components, pedal box, windscreen, wiring loom, instruments etc. The only bits needed are chassis, bushes, body panels, dashboard panel, wheels, tyres, seats and recon of donor parts. You could even use the donor seats if you were feeling especially tight!
I have got to a build cost of around £4200-£4700 with new seats and 15" wheels/tyres. I have also costed for a similar design to a similar level of quality but with the mid engined configuration - the extra cost is around £700.
I think the basic question is that if you are on a really tight budget, would you rather spend your money on a transverse mid engined kit with a XR2i donor-spec engine & box, or a FWD kit as above with (for example) a 2.0 Zetec and a RS Turbo LSD unit - because that's what the cost difference could buy you. You get more power to weight but FWD into the bargain... I can make it handle you know!
It's not so much an out-and-out performance option but a cheap way of getting into the kit scene. I'd hope it would attract some people enough to spend a little more than the minimum on tuning the car and making it a little less ordinary - but I also understand if customers would prefer to build a mid-engined car to a lower spec. Again, if cost is king, what would you do?
Oh BTW here's an interim - the one with a screen and doors, but no roof and I still need to look at those soddin' lights!
BTW the thing I'm happiest with is that my first attempt at a digital rendering has come out OK
There's plenty of room at the rear and that space is earmarked for bootspace, soft top storage and perhaps plus-two seats. Yes it could probably house the engine and gearbox assembly, but the whole design is drawn up as a result of the high bonnet line required by a front-mounted transverse powertrain so the styling lines would change from front to back!
Going for a mid engined layout invokes additional cost due to a second set of front uprights, front wheel bearing / hub inserts, rear calipers, accelerator and clutch cables, gearshift linkage, radiator and brake servo hoses, and in this case front wishbones.
The idea behind this concept - remember that I was sceptical about the idea at the outset - was to produce a very low cost design that required a minimum number of kit components, a minimum number of bespoke and new parts, and a maximum number of donor bits. This design uses all the Fiesta donor parts including struts, wishbones, rear stub axles, steering gear, engine and box plus all ancilliaries, brake components, pedal box, windscreen, wiring loom, instruments etc. The only bits needed are chassis, bushes, body panels, dashboard panel, wheels, tyres, seats and recon of donor parts. You could even use the donor seats if you were feeling especially tight!
I have got to a build cost of around £4200-£4700 with new seats and 15" wheels/tyres. I have also costed for a similar design to a similar level of quality but with the mid engined configuration - the extra cost is around £700.
I think the basic question is that if you are on a really tight budget, would you rather spend your money on a transverse mid engined kit with a XR2i donor-spec engine & box, or a FWD kit as above with (for example) a 2.0 Zetec and a RS Turbo LSD unit - because that's what the cost difference could buy you. You get more power to weight but FWD into the bargain... I can make it handle you know!
It's not so much an out-and-out performance option but a cheap way of getting into the kit scene. I'd hope it would attract some people enough to spend a little more than the minimum on tuning the car and making it a little less ordinary - but I also understand if customers would prefer to build a mid-engined car to a lower spec. Again, if cost is king, what would you do?
Oh BTW here's an interim - the one with a screen and doors, but no roof and I still need to look at those soddin' lights!
BTW the thing I'm happiest with is that my first attempt at a digital rendering has come out OK
I really like it!! 
and hence approve of the £700 cost saving achieved in using all Fiesta parts. 
The hard part is moving from sketch to 3D. 
You could save alot if you had the parts made overseas with "cheap" labor and have what you want istead of what you can aford in UK???
just a tought ! as the guys hear are getting very good now!
alot of Uk customers seam to like Rag tops ! not sure why but had loads ask if the nemesis can be a rag top ! if that helps?
just a tought ! as the guys hear are getting very good now!
alot of Uk customers seam to like Rag tops ! not sure why but had loads ask if the nemesis can be a rag top ! if that helps?
It's looking good Jay!
The first thing that struck me that has waned a little is some of the similarities to the Ford Rallye Academy car which I believe was built by a kit car manufacturer and is used for a rallying school for 13-17 year olds (bugger I'm too old!).
Ford Rallye Academy Gallery
Which makes me think, would it be worth checking the rules and regs for a few rally series to see if this could be a contender...?
I'd be interested in seeing a rear three-quarter view to see just how steeply the front arches cut back in.
BTW, what software did you use to create the rendering?
The first thing that struck me that has waned a little is some of the similarities to the Ford Rallye Academy car which I believe was built by a kit car manufacturer and is used for a rallying school for 13-17 year olds (bugger I'm too old!
). Ford Rallye Academy Gallery
Which makes me think, would it be worth checking the rules and regs for a few rally series to see if this could be a contender...?
I'd be interested in seeing a rear three-quarter view to see just how steeply the front arches cut back in.
BTW, what software did you use to create the rendering?
Great response everyone - thanks!
Soft tops - a soft top will fit on the one with a screen, no bother, with space to stow it below bodywork level. Though I'd thought of offering a hard roof panel from screen to rollbar only instead / as well - like the Tommy Kaira / Leading Edge jobbie. Customer demand again... how dry do you need to be / how many times would it go out in the wet?
Overseas GRP - seems to be getting popular, Ultima source their GRP in S Africa and although it's a long way to ship, the economies must be there, with the rider that the Ultima GRP price is relatively high and I would guess Vince's will not be at the bottom end of the pricing scale... also dependent on volumes produced. As this is a budget kit I had wondered whether the shipping would end up a larger factor than the labour time. I'll think about it seriously if this ever sees the light of day!
A rally car - first car I designed was a mid-engined bike-powered rally car very similar to the Academy car, this turned into the Coram LMP as the interest in rallying was not mine - circuit driving for me please! I've robbed a decent amount of the FEA-derived roll structure from that rally car design to put into the track version (red car on first post).
It occurred to me that it could be used as a rally car although for the build cost you could get a decent 205GTi or similar... if the demand was there I'd be seriously looking at that though. Perhaps a training car for BTCC aspirants and 2WD rally drivers?
Oh and I used Adobe Photoshop and a lot of patience! About 5 hours from a line drawing to the red car, an hour to convert to the yellow one with a screen. It's far from perfect down in the pixels but holds its own from a distance - and using photos of the lights and wheels, or I'd still be trying to get it right...
Soft tops - a soft top will fit on the one with a screen, no bother, with space to stow it below bodywork level. Though I'd thought of offering a hard roof panel from screen to rollbar only instead / as well - like the Tommy Kaira / Leading Edge jobbie. Customer demand again... how dry do you need to be / how many times would it go out in the wet?
Overseas GRP - seems to be getting popular, Ultima source their GRP in S Africa and although it's a long way to ship, the economies must be there, with the rider that the Ultima GRP price is relatively high and I would guess Vince's will not be at the bottom end of the pricing scale... also dependent on volumes produced. As this is a budget kit I had wondered whether the shipping would end up a larger factor than the labour time. I'll think about it seriously if this ever sees the light of day!
A rally car - first car I designed was a mid-engined bike-powered rally car very similar to the Academy car, this turned into the Coram LMP as the interest in rallying was not mine - circuit driving for me please! I've robbed a decent amount of the FEA-derived roll structure from that rally car design to put into the track version (red car on first post).
It occurred to me that it could be used as a rally car although for the build cost you could get a decent 205GTi or similar... if the demand was there I'd be seriously looking at that though. Perhaps a training car for BTCC aspirants and 2WD rally drivers?
Oh and I used Adobe Photoshop and a lot of patience! About 5 hours from a line drawing to the red car, an hour to convert to the yellow one with a screen. It's far from perfect down in the pixels but holds its own from a distance - and using photos of the lights and wheels, or I'd still be trying to get it right...
If a car was to be built for a budget;
What would poeple use it for?
Does it need a soft top/ hard top/ coupe style/ no roof?
Do they want a track day/ every day or occasional road car?
If a fwd car can handle as well as a rwd, what would stop people buying the fwd?
Just a few questions. . . .
What would poeple use it for?
Does it need a soft top/ hard top/ coupe style/ no roof?
Do they want a track day/ every day or occasional road car?
If a fwd car can handle as well as a rwd, what would stop people buying the fwd?
Just a few questions. . . .
Hay Jay
It has potential, and im sure it has a market, price is obviously the concern (and it seems good), I kinda like the looks of it, a fin on the back would set it of nicely, as would a more aggressive front nose (it sort of slopes in to much), I was thinking more skyline v spec feel???
BUT… its easy for people to criticise (especially when they couldn’t ever achieve something themselves), I think you have an idea there that is 95% superb, Keep working on it.
Not my cup of tea, I like rear wheel drive at moment (and COFF mid engine, but you know all about that thread LOL) but it has appeal, and applaud anyone who has the ability to create, not criticise.
Flap
jay w said:
I can make it handle you know!
James,
How you planning to do that, if you are basing this project on a front engine with front wheel drive?
It will be incredibly sensitive to weight issues, looking at the renderings it will be very front heavy, with a space frame design and GRP body the car will have all it's weight over the front..... Making it handle properly will not be an easy task at all, especially as you will be dictated a lot by the standard suspension/steering geometry on the front - ie hugely set for roll understeer.
I think the interest level amongst most kit car owners is that the purest drivetrain is a rear wheel drive layout, and that mid engine set up are kinda different to the usual sevenesque design.
The Libra GTM which (AFAIK) has transfered the whole front wheel drive package to the rear, you then have an ultimately tuneable rear geometry where you can modify bump steer characteristics using tie rods to replace the steering arms. I agree you will have a probel with rear brakes, but I would think that using Fords parts a set of Sierra 4x4 rear calipers may work and fit the fiesta knuckle.
Just my 10 penneth worth in this study, but I would certainly vote RWD.... have you thought about using Audi engine/trans axle? The 1.8 (8V and 16V) units would be good and the rear styling looks to be large enough to accomodate it?
By the way, I think the rendering is excellent and shows a tidy set of lines...... An interesting thread.... and one that will go on for a while.
PS - Speak to you tomorrow about the job!?!
MONSTER POST ALERT Mark B said:
I can make it handle you know!
James,
How you planning to do that, if you are basing this project on a front engine with front wheel drive?
I never said I'd make it handle like a mid engined car
I've analysed a few mid/rear transverse suspension systems on existing cars and found that they have plenty of understeer designed in. I appreciate this is mostly to combat the rearward weight bias but press reports generally point to some understeer on the road too. I think that for a road car some understeer is desireable, certainly the alternative is a
even for most enthusiastic drivers. Mark B said:
It will be incredibly sensitive to weight issues, looking at the renderings it will be very front heavy, with a space frame design and GRP body the car will have all it's weight over the front..... Making it handle properly will not be an easy task at all, especially as you will be dictated a lot by the standard suspension/steering geometry on the front - ie hugely set for roll understeer.
I agree except for the suspension geometry - I can change static camber settings, caster angle, spring and damper rates, roll centre height and movement, and to some extent the camber compensation rate (and differentiated compensation rate). Restriction is of course the McPherson strut package - and if I abandoned that I may as well do a middy instead and abandon the lowest-cost aspect that started this in the first place!
The focus for road cars will have to be a balance of ride and handling, with mild understeer at best, but track-oriented cars can run much stiffer springs and bars, making it easier to tailor the rear to the amount of front grip available. I'd hope that those who were serious about driving the car hard would make the necessary concessions to normal driving comfort in order to get the best balance possible - I know I would (and have
) and I'd argue that almost every kit driver makes at least some concessions to some comfort factors every time he drives his car. [argumentative mode] Anyway tarmac spec FWD rally cars, and FWD tourers handle OK - get over your irrational anti-FWD stance [/argumentative mode]
Mark B said:
I think the interest level amongst most kit car owners is that the purest drivetrain is a rear wheel drive layout, and that mid engine set up are kinda different to the usual sevenesque design.
I completely agree. I'd been looking at this package seriously for a while and still would be doing so if I hadn't taken the challenge (see "Who makes a front transverse engined kit?" thread) to go for a very, very low cost kit as an alternative to Locosts - not on a performance and usability front, but from a cost perspective. As I said above, going for the mid engined route will add several hundred pounds to the build cost - 20% extra perhaps?
Mark B said:
The Libra GTM which (AFAIK) has transfered the whole front wheel drive package to the rear, you then have an ultimately tuneable rear geometry where you can modify bump steer characteristics using tie rods to replace the steering arms.
Can't fault you can I! There's no question that this is a great way of making mainstream powertrain units work in kits - I blame Ex-Biker for starting that damn thread in the first place
Mark B said:
Just my 10 penneth worth in this study, but I would certainly vote RWD....
FWIW if I was buying a kit I'd go for a RWD / mid configuration myself; I'm a hooligan and like power oversteer (and turn-in oversteer come to that
) but I do want to prove to myself as well as others that FWD can be fast, balanced and fun. Mark B said:
have you thought about using Audi engine/trans axle? The 1.8 (8V and 16V) units would be good and the rear styling looks to be large enough to accomodate it?
Absolutely first choice, there are some great engine choices in the Audi line-up, transaxles to take the power and ability to pass emissions with ease. Saves tedious mucking about with adapter plates, hybrid clutches and so forth. Again if I was doing a rear-engine package I wouldn't need the high bonnet line of this car, so I'd restyle completely. It'd still look the bollocks, though
I've seen other gaps in the kit car market and one of them is crying out for Audi engines & transaxles, but when this project came along I thought long and hard, and then decided I'd rather take the challenge than reject the idea out of hand - which was my first reaction.
The other thing is that I'm testing the water to see if this is a possibility or not... I've only done a few renderings and a preliminary package & chassis design. If the reaction is generally "looks nice, can you make it RWD 'cos FWD is mince" then I'd better stick the engine in the back and concede that no, low cost isn't the most important factor that builders consider
Mark B said:
By the way, I think the rendering is excellent and shows a tidy set of lines......
I thank you :humble:
Mark B said:
PS - Speak to you tomorrow about the job!?!
Fine, any time!
I was like a dog with two tails when I heard about this one although work on this concept will slow a bit if Ron likes the cut of my jib 
I would reckon that a good 90%+ of todays driving population have a better feel for fwd cars than for mid and rear, and would probably feel safer driving the fwd car. Those that require more "wayward" handling could dial out any understeer and even promote neutral to oversteer if required. I think there is a gap in the market for a serious fwd car that has good looks and goes round corners well.
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