Ambitious idea for Kitcarman
Discussion
I am a great fan of the Locost concept, I think Ron Champion's book is great and preparing to take the plunge and start. However, I think the concept needs updating. The original Locost was a poor man's Lotus 7 based on an Mk I orII Escort with Cortina bits, both donor cars that are now scarce.
A good update for the Locost would be to re-invent it as a poor mans Ariel Atom - mid engined, 2l 16v Ford zetec engine, minimal bodywork, no windscreen, doors etc. All up weight maybe 500kg, target build price < £5k.
As Den has experience both of car design and publishing what about a long series (say 18 months) with monthly installments in the magazine starting with a design brief, chassis design, suspension, steering, brakes etc leading in to monthly build sections with plans to encourage interested readers to join in and build a car. At the end of the build the plans could be combined into a book along the lines of Haynes 'Build Your Own Sports Car For As Little as £250...', which has been a very successful book.
I am sure that a specialist manufacturer could be found to make the bespoke bits like wishbones and uprights, there is a thriving Locost industry out there.
Would this lead to any conflicts of interest, or simply be too difficult? It would certainly keep Den busy.
A good update for the Locost would be to re-invent it as a poor mans Ariel Atom - mid engined, 2l 16v Ford zetec engine, minimal bodywork, no windscreen, doors etc. All up weight maybe 500kg, target build price < £5k.
As Den has experience both of car design and publishing what about a long series (say 18 months) with monthly installments in the magazine starting with a design brief, chassis design, suspension, steering, brakes etc leading in to monthly build sections with plans to encourage interested readers to join in and build a car. At the end of the build the plans could be combined into a book along the lines of Haynes 'Build Your Own Sports Car For As Little as £250...', which has been a very successful book.
I am sure that a specialist manufacturer could be found to make the bespoke bits like wishbones and uprights, there is a thriving Locost industry out there.
Would this lead to any conflicts of interest, or simply be too difficult? It would certainly keep Den busy.
and some on site as well
we recently had discussion about fiesta based single donor vehicles and the like Having said that I like the cut of your jib young man something like the atom or the deronda F400 www.deronda.co.uk but on the cheap
we recently had discussion about fiesta based single donor vehicles and the like Having said that I like the cut of your jib young man something like the atom or the deronda F400 www.deronda.co.uk but on the cheap
david_s said:I like the idea. Ron Champion’s advantage was that the design existed. All he had to do was explain how to actually ‘build it for £250’.
I am a great fan of the Locost concept. . .
A good update for the Locost would be to re-invent it as a poor mans Ariel Atom, . . . . target build price < £5k.
As Den has experience both of car design and publishing what about a long series . . .
Would this lead to any conflicts of interest, or simply be too difficult? It would certainly keep Den busy.
The problem that confronts us is that we stand where Colin Chapman once stood in pondering how to make a sports car from bits commonly available.
We have the problem in that the bits commonly available today are McPhearson struts and engines installed sideways.
If we were to come up with a concept that utilised these bits stylishly, actually making it wouldn’t be that hard. What I’m saying is that I believe that the challenge is with aesthetics, not engineering.
Den
kitcarman said:
I am a great fan of the Locost concept. . .
A good update for the Locost would be to re-invent it as a poor mans Ariel Atom, . . . . target build price < £5k.
As Den has experience both of car design and publishing what about a long series . . .
Would this lead to any conflicts of interest, or simply be too difficult? It would certainly keep Den busy.
I like the idea. Ron Champion’s advantage was that the design existed. All he had to do was explain how to actually ‘build it for £250’.
The problem that confronts us is that we stand where Colin Chapman once stood in pondering how to make a sports car from bits commonly available.
We have the problem in that the bits commonly available today are McPhearson struts and engines installed sideways.
If we were to come up with a concept that utilised these bits stylishly, actually making it wouldn’t be that hard. What I’m saying is that I believe that the challenge is with aesthetics, not engineering.
Den
How about the Sylva "Mojo"?
Component wise, which bits would cause problems? The obvious one I suppose is a decent transaxle to make a mid engined rather than rear engined design. What does the Atom use? I wouldn't bother with macpherson struts as wishbones and coilovers are not expensive, steering could be fairly easily sourced and a lot of old Sierras had all round disc brakes which could be adapted farly easily. What other major bits would be needed?
As far as aeshetics are concerned, personally I like the Atom. And an Atom 'lookalike' would have the advantage of very little bodywork to source.
If Colin Chapman had had access to some of the twin cam, all alloy, 16v fuel injected engines that we have now I think he would have been in heaven. He certainly wouldn't have had to spend time developing his own engines. I think the transmission will be the problem today.
I am sure that it could be done if someone had the inclination and experience, but that someone will not be me!
As far as aeshetics are concerned, personally I like the Atom. And an Atom 'lookalike' would have the advantage of very little bodywork to source.
If Colin Chapman had had access to some of the twin cam, all alloy, 16v fuel injected engines that we have now I think he would have been in heaven. He certainly wouldn't have had to spend time developing his own engines. I think the transmission will be the problem today.
I am sure that it could be done if someone had the inclination and experience, but that someone will not be me!
These kind of ideas/concepts are discussed ad lib here..www.locostbuilders.co.uk/index.php check out the mid-engined section.
Many of us are building cars on a low budget basis...including me..www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/
As Den points out aesthetics is the biggest issue..the engineering is relatively easy..
Good thread though..I'm keen to see it grow.
Many of us are building cars on a low budget basis...including me..www.desicodesign.com/meerkat/
As Den points out aesthetics is the biggest issue..the engineering is relatively easy..
Good thread though..I'm keen to see it grow.
David,
I’ve no doubt that what you have in mind would be an awesome machine to lust after.
I believe that what’s wanted is something that’s more basic. Simething very simple and very cheap to encourage less confident and less financially able folk to take the plunge.
The Lotus 7 was simple and cheap in it’s day.
I think we need to be thinking of using a FWD engine in the front, along with its gearbox, drive-shafts. The rear axle, from the same donor vehicle, at the back. Plus its struts and front uprights/brakes at the front.
In that way we get the entire mechanical package for the price of a donor car. For an Escort, Golf, Metro, etc - that needn’t be more than the price of one new shock absorber.
This has been done by Onyx and Jester, but the results offend my eyes (no offence intended). If somebody could come up with a design that looked right, I’ve no doubt it’ll sell in huge quantity to the next generation of kit car builder.
It won’t be easy to make a really attractive sporty looking car from mundane components. However, I think it’s possible.
Den
I’ve no doubt that what you have in mind would be an awesome machine to lust after.
I believe that what’s wanted is something that’s more basic. Simething very simple and very cheap to encourage less confident and less financially able folk to take the plunge.
The Lotus 7 was simple and cheap in it’s day.
I think we need to be thinking of using a FWD engine in the front, along with its gearbox, drive-shafts. The rear axle, from the same donor vehicle, at the back. Plus its struts and front uprights/brakes at the front.
In that way we get the entire mechanical package for the price of a donor car. For an Escort, Golf, Metro, etc - that needn’t be more than the price of one new shock absorber.
This has been done by Onyx and Jester, but the results offend my eyes (no offence intended). If somebody could come up with a design that looked right, I’ve no doubt it’ll sell in huge quantity to the next generation of kit car builder.
It won’t be easy to make a really attractive sporty looking car from mundane components. However, I think it’s possible.
Den
ferg said:Ferg,
Den,
Please don't forget that the Libra is a single donor car. I know that you need a second set of uprights, but what hardship is that. Otherwise it is (or can be) all Metro.
The GTM is a wonderful piece of kit. Could you imagine how many would sell if the DIY build, on the road, price were £4000 to £5000?
That is achievable if all the complexity and expense of moving the engine from where the donor’s designer placed it was avoided.
Den
kitcarman said:
Ferg,
The GTM is a wonderful piece of kit. Could you imagine how many would sell if the DIY build, on the road, price were £4000 to £5000?
That is achievable if all the complexity and expense of moving the engine from where the donor’s designer placed it was avoided.
Den
I think you are wrong to suggest that the moving of the engine is the overiding reason for the cost of the kit.
The reasons for that are many fold.
1.The composite monococque (Lightness)
2.Bespoke suspension (Ride and handling)
3.Finish (Near production car)
Just these three could be subject to compromise to produce a cheaper car. I'm not saying the Libra could be cheaper, because all these things go to make it what it is, fantastic, but I'm sure the market is there and gradually being filled.
Given the choice between front or mid-engined I think a desire to be different would be enough to persuade builders to pay that little bit more.
kitcarman said:
I think we need to be thinking of using a FWD engine in the front, along with its gearbox, drive-shafts. The rear axle, from the same donor vehicle, at the back. Plus its struts and front uprights/brakes at the front.
In that way we get the entire mechanical package for the price of a donor car. For an Escort, Golf, Metro, etc - that needn’t be more than the price of one new shock absorber.
This has been done by Onyx and Jester, but the results offend my eyes (no offence intended). If somebody could come up with a design that looked right, I’ve no doubt it’ll sell in huge quantity to the next generation of kit car builder.
Good grief give me a chance
Still working on this - will have something for you to have a pop at, er I mean constructively criticise, in a few days... done the feasibility, looking at the styling, not even looked at costs yet!
Agree with points made re cost of Libra - when the monocoque costs £4k alone (I think) it is impossible to replicate that car's level of quality and finish for £5k OTR - and make it profitable anyway
Question is what level of quality and finish is acceptable to the buyer? For my part, I'd be a bit disappointed at the prospect of a funky new kit design only to find that the dashboard was straight from a tired and abused Festa, for example...
docevi1 said:
Could you not reverse the engine? i.e. take a front engined donor and put it in the back?
A lot the modern cars are getting front-mid engines, so in theory if you reversed the drive (you'd go backwards quickly otherwise) you could have the all the suspension you needed?
Plenty have done this, the Libra and 5exi for starters. You don't need to reverse the drive (but if you did, turning the engine 180 degrees would place the major mass on the LHS of the car and balance out the weight of the driver) you just move it rearwards. Main issue with rear transverse installations is getting a decent lightweight frame to hang the rear suspension from, see Libra for a novel alternative solution. It's also possible to use McPherson struts on the back, see a Stratos for how to do it
but it's relatively heavy. When you have a Ferrari V8 engine out back this doesn't matter quite so much though 
The on-cost for a mid-engined car using transverse running gear is mainly restricted to control cables, complexitites with power steering, need for additional front uprights and slave driveshafts, plumbing and pumping for a front-mounted radiator etc. It's not that much on the total build cost for the advantage of mid engine RWD against front engine FWD... but it's more complicated to develop and build, and when cost is king, every little helps!
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