Who makes a front transverse engined kit?
Discussion
Surely it would make the build easier.
Engine, gearbox and possibly the suspension straight out of the donor and in the kit. No probs with changing gear linkages, accelerator and clutch cables from donor and you could probably use the donors complete brake lines too.
Too easy? Not enough of a challenge to home builders?
Why do manufacturers insist on putting transverse engines in the back? It's not as if many kit cars every go out on track days or racing.
>>> Edited by Knowone on Friday 9th January 09:21
Engine, gearbox and possibly the suspension straight out of the donor and in the kit. No probs with changing gear linkages, accelerator and clutch cables from donor and you could probably use the donors complete brake lines too.
Too easy? Not enough of a challenge to home builders?
Why do manufacturers insist on putting transverse engines in the back? It's not as if many kit cars every go out on track days or racing.
>>> Edited by Knowone on Friday 9th January 09:21
Personally I wouldn't design a front engined, FWD kit because the finished product would be too close to a production car in terms of usability and practicality.
If you use a donor car's suspension, engine/box etc, the majority of the mechanical and cockpit package carries over from the donor.
To keep it cheap and simple (it must be cheap and simple or the costs rise to be comparable to less compromised designs) you would probably look at keeping the heater, seats, instruments etc. At best the dash and door panels would be new but that is added complication and cost which makes the design less attractive to builders who want a budget car.
Given that the bonnet line is the same height as on the donor car by necessity, you are forced into a relatively high seating position and therefore a relatively high screen. The seating position and ergonomics of the car end up feeling similar to the donor vehicle's and usually not very performance-oriented.
In the interests of keeping costs low again, more and more parts end up coming off the donor car. Last time I looked at this, I couldn't get beyond using almost all the donor car's interior, and that compromises the design by dictating the screen angle, door size, rear quarter treatment etc.
The only successful kit I've seen that managed this layout was the Quantum, which was well received but seemed to age fairly quickly compared to many other kits - which tend to be replicas and don't suffer from the same loss of image over time.
I've had thoughts about doing a front engined RWD design to carry over mechanicals from a 3 series, Carlton etc, in the same manner as that new monstrous MG (is it the SV?) and trying the same trick with only two seats and a roll bar. But I can't get past the thought that a FWD donor, with its higher driving position and less sporty feel at the wheel, practically demands rear seats.
The big sticking point here is that for a build cost of say £5k on a very basic kit that carries over a lot of parts from a dated donor car, you can get a very, very competent modern family car that will outperform the kit car in terms of ride, NVH, comforts, handling and perhaps even grip levels. I don't personally think there is a big enough market out there for a 4-seater kit car to justify the investment... I've always felt that kit cars are ideal to get the man in the street a sports car at low cost, or the enthusiast a supercar at moderate cost, and there are enough RWD donors out there that FWD layouts with their high bonnet lines are unnecessary.
Whew! What a long post. Apologies if any teaching of egg-sucking went on in the above
If you use a donor car's suspension, engine/box etc, the majority of the mechanical and cockpit package carries over from the donor.
To keep it cheap and simple (it must be cheap and simple or the costs rise to be comparable to less compromised designs) you would probably look at keeping the heater, seats, instruments etc. At best the dash and door panels would be new but that is added complication and cost which makes the design less attractive to builders who want a budget car.
Given that the bonnet line is the same height as on the donor car by necessity, you are forced into a relatively high seating position and therefore a relatively high screen. The seating position and ergonomics of the car end up feeling similar to the donor vehicle's and usually not very performance-oriented.
In the interests of keeping costs low again, more and more parts end up coming off the donor car. Last time I looked at this, I couldn't get beyond using almost all the donor car's interior, and that compromises the design by dictating the screen angle, door size, rear quarter treatment etc.
The only successful kit I've seen that managed this layout was the Quantum, which was well received but seemed to age fairly quickly compared to many other kits - which tend to be replicas and don't suffer from the same loss of image over time.
I've had thoughts about doing a front engined RWD design to carry over mechanicals from a 3 series, Carlton etc, in the same manner as that new monstrous MG (is it the SV?) and trying the same trick with only two seats and a roll bar. But I can't get past the thought that a FWD donor, with its higher driving position and less sporty feel at the wheel, practically demands rear seats.
The big sticking point here is that for a build cost of say £5k on a very basic kit that carries over a lot of parts from a dated donor car, you can get a very, very competent modern family car that will outperform the kit car in terms of ride, NVH, comforts, handling and perhaps even grip levels. I don't personally think there is a big enough market out there for a 4-seater kit car to justify the investment... I've always felt that kit cars are ideal to get the man in the street a sports car at low cost, or the enthusiast a supercar at moderate cost, and there are enough RWD donors out there that FWD layouts with their high bonnet lines are unnecessary.
Whew! What a long post. Apologies if any teaching of egg-sucking went on in the above
Knowone said:
Too easy? Not enough of a challenge to home builders?
No, the real reason is (IMO) that when people build a kit car, they want to have something special and unusual. Parcticality is rarely an issue, so a mid engined layout gives weight distribution, traction and handling advantages, not to mention no torque steer.
I don't think the market's there either.
Aside from the points Jay has made about engineering it, I don't think the market would be there.
If somebody has got the enthusiasm to build their own car, I think they're going to want something that feels a bit special. They're not going to buy a kit that can offer nothing more than FWD mechanics and the associated dynamic abilities.
The closest you're going to get to this is something like the Quantum Sunrunner which uses the entire front subframe from a Fiesta as a rear subframe - Front tranverse FWD becomes mid transverse RWD.
Aside from the points Jay has made about engineering it, I don't think the market would be there.
If somebody has got the enthusiasm to build their own car, I think they're going to want something that feels a bit special. They're not going to buy a kit that can offer nothing more than FWD mechanics and the associated dynamic abilities.
The closest you're going to get to this is something like the Quantum Sunrunner which uses the entire front subframe from a Fiesta as a rear subframe - Front tranverse FWD becomes mid transverse RWD.
Re use of front subframe or at least the front end mechanicals for a mid installation - compared to the cost of a longitudnal mid layout, using FWD engine and box is cheap as chips. Costs rise slightly due to gear linkage, control cables etc and some bespoke parts for the front suspension/hubs, but aren't so high that the overall build is prohibitive. And certainly the mid layout generally results in a car that the builder will feel more proud of than a rebodied Fiesta which still handles like a Fiesta (with respect to that sector of the market).
Using a transaxle, special bellhousing and V6/V8 engine is ridiculously expensive in comparison, and results in a heavier and larger car too.
There's been some talk on the forum recently about very low cost kits, in particular as Sierras are getting a little rarer on the roads, and to be honest I'm not sure what alternative there is. At risk of cross-pollination of threads, the BMW isn't an option in my view simply because of the weight of the engines, inclusion of power steering on all models, lack of a separate rear hub mounting, etc.
The future of kit cars could well end up being mid-engined from FWD donors... the Mojo shows that it can be done cheaply, and the Libra / Spyder shows it can produce a decent everyday coupe. There should be something for most builders somewhere between the two - in fact Marlin are building it with their new 5exi...
Using a transaxle, special bellhousing and V6/V8 engine is ridiculously expensive in comparison, and results in a heavier and larger car too.
There's been some talk on the forum recently about very low cost kits, in particular as Sierras are getting a little rarer on the roads, and to be honest I'm not sure what alternative there is. At risk of cross-pollination of threads, the BMW isn't an option in my view simply because of the weight of the engines, inclusion of power steering on all models, lack of a separate rear hub mounting, etc.
The future of kit cars could well end up being mid-engined from FWD donors... the Mojo shows that it can be done cheaply, and the Libra / Spyder shows it can produce a decent everyday coupe. There should be something for most builders somewhere between the two - in fact Marlin are building it with their new 5exi...
I do believe the industry needs locost kits (and not just '7's).
I think using the original engine set up could significantly reduce costs.
Using wishbones and coilovers would help reduce weight, improve handling and minimise the area required for the suspension therefore enabling more scope for body design.
I'm sure a 2 seater car could be designed (looking nothing like the donor) which would be entertaining to drive (not neccessarily overtly sporty) could be built for reasonable money.
No one else think there would be a market for this at a decent spec for a sub £5k price?
I think using the original engine set up could significantly reduce costs.
Using wishbones and coilovers would help reduce weight, improve handling and minimise the area required for the suspension therefore enabling more scope for body design.
I'm sure a 2 seater car could be designed (looking nothing like the donor) which would be entertaining to drive (not neccessarily overtly sporty) could be built for reasonable money.
No one else think there would be a market for this at a decent spec for a sub £5k price?
Ex-Biker said:
I'm sure a 2 seater car could be designed (looking nothing like the donor) which would be entertaining to drive (not neccessarily overtly sporty) could be built for reasonable money.
Hope I got the quote thingy right...
I kind of agree, except that I always end up looking at the space behind the front seats where there is nothing but, er, space. Because rear axles on FWD cars are so package-friendly there's ample room to stick seats in there, and nothing much else that can be put in there instead. Short of moving the rear wheels forward, shortening what is already a short wheelbase to the extent that the car will be stumpy like a Smart, I keep putting rear seats in! Help!
I'm more than happy to start work tomorrow on a new design using a Fiesta donor (in case you were wondering, Ford's the only realistic option as it's possible to get any brand new bits you care to think of from them at ex-works prices) if only I can find a way of making a credible stab at a 2-seater FWD design.
It's entirely possible I've got a mental block about this so all suggestions from less blinkered people than me are welcome!
Ex-Biker said:
Just a thought about my last post and Jay_w's ideas.
Ford based car, front engine, front wheel drive, short, 2 seater.
Don't they call it a 'Street Ka'?
Same thought struck me this afternoon! I've spent the last few hours looking at small hatchbacks for packaging visualisation, and coupes for suitable side glass! Sad life, huh?
You've got my juices flowing - I'll work on it!
Flintstone said:
Mark, Andy.
Aren't you descibing a Banham?
I see where you are coming from (you've got one) and they are one of the only non '7' cars available for less than £5k but that's one company that does rebodied cars. Are there any pure kit cars? (I know about the Quantum).
Jay_w, it would be nice to see some of your ideas.
jay w said:
Don't they call it a 'Street Ka'?
Same thought struck me this afternoon! I've spent the last few hours looking at small hatchbacks for packaging visualisation, and coupes for suitable side glass! Sad life, huh?
I'd take a look at the Ford Racing Puma for inspiration.
www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv&num=211
I personally like the looks, but wasn't all that impressed with the dynamics (even though everyone raved about it at the time) when I tested a standard 1.7. Might have been because it was a tired 2nd hand one, but seemed to squat, dive and roll a bit too much for my liking.
Something to think about if you're designing something FWD to distinguish it from it's donor would be the introduction of anti-dive / anti-squat geometry into the suspension.
Not sure how practical it would be in trying to utilise as much of the donor as possible, but without the packaging constraints of a hatchback designer, you could lengthen the bonnet a bit and see if you couldn't get the engine back a bit further behind the front axle. But then how would you get drive from the transverse 'box forward to the hubs... CV joints?
There have been sucessful transverse front wheel drive kits including the Mini Marcos and Midas, so there must be (or have been) a market. Only company I can think of off hand still doing one though is Quantum.
Seee www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=112&i=4864
Seee www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=112&i=4864
Ex-Biker said:
Are there any pure kit cars? (I know about the Quantum).
Jay_w, it would be nice to see some of your ideas.
How could you forget the delectable and stunning Onyx range of cars www.onyxsportscars.f9.co.uk
There used to be a couple of 2CV kits about, including a 7, others still about are www.deauvillecars.com www.pembleton.co.uk www.leighton-cars.co.uk and Lomax (www.rsjigtec.com)
Harlequin use the Fiesta as a donor for their Jester
There used to be a couple more, Onyx firefly I think was Fiat Panda based and used to look quite good, I think they did another version on the Fiat Uno, which may now be the www.fereday cars.co.uk
I would like to see Jay_W's ideas too as my list doesn't include many sports cars
PeetBee said:
I would like to see Jay_W's ideas too as my list doesn't include many sports cars
Pressure's on now, isn't it?! Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything...
This type of mechanical package is the one I've been trying to avoid, partly because of styling and handling issues I can see looming. But issues are there to be resolved (can you tell I've worked with major car manufacturers in the past) so I'll get to it. Seems the idea of a sporty, low budget FWD kit has got everyone going so I can't refuse to give it a go.
I'm not the world's best with a pencil so please, no holding your breath for a decent artists impression!
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff