Playground Antics In The News?
Discussion
Iain Ayre took Martin Buckley to Donnington this year. There were conversations between the two concerning the fact that there was a very real possibility that Iain might be refused entry, or be thrown out, on account of the fact that he (and all other Kit Car staff) had been declared persona non grata.
So, like Ex-Biker, I’d be interested to know what Martin Buckley had to say on the subject.
Iain Ayre, in his Donnington report in the November issue of Kit Car, is the source of all that I know.
Den.
So, like Ex-Biker, I’d be interested to know what Martin Buckley had to say on the subject.
Iain Ayre, in his Donnington report in the November issue of Kit Car, is the source of all that I know.
Den.
It's a lenghty piece but here are the choice bits that reflect one way or the other on the industry:
Winston Churchill said you should try everything once except incest and morris dancing, I would add to that list 'owning a kit car'. I've managed to avoid it for 37 years and intend to keep it that way
Yes I know there are good ones, that if you told me weren't kits. I'd peobably think they were acceptable.
kit cars are the cheapest way to go very quickly: theres a thing called a tiger with two engines that does 0-60 in 3.15
I bought a copy of kit car in the local news agents. I couldn't have felt shiftier if I'd been reaching up for Razzle and Asian babes (I've got them on subscription to save embarrasment).
it seems the world of kit magazines is at war at the moment, with the two dominent protaganists in the market having an open slanging match in print: the air is electric with accusations of of dodgy deal, fiddled sales figures, you said this/no I didn't/yes you did you lying fat bastard.....and so on, all much to the amusement of the readers. It made me wish the world of mainstream car mags wasn't so polite.
My guide to the show was Ian Ayre from Kit car, who, amusingly was expecting to get his head kicked in by the staff of Which kit..the shows sponsors. Sadly nothing kicked off.
The punters all looked relativley normal, while the people flogging things seemed refreshingly BS free.
I was amazed by a replica diablo that you would stuggle to tell from the real thing; I admired the ingenuity of it's creators but couldn't help thinking such talent could be put to better use on something original like the AGM, which could have passed for a TVR prototype.
I thought the Suffolk Jaguar ss100 was wonderfull,....Yet I'd run a mile from any of the XK120 inspired creations on offer.
....building, owning and driving kits, replicas and fakes doesn't hurt anything except my sense of aesthetics and nobody should take any notice of that as I'm a well known purist bigot when it comes to cars.I can understand the urge to want to build a car with your own hands as a form of relaxation, I just think that people should be made to dismantle them again afterwards.
END OF ARTICLE.
So there you go, Martin Buckley's view on kits, basically with every compliment is an insult...is that what they call "balanced" reporting?
Winston Churchill said you should try everything once except incest and morris dancing, I would add to that list 'owning a kit car'. I've managed to avoid it for 37 years and intend to keep it that way
Yes I know there are good ones, that if you told me weren't kits. I'd peobably think they were acceptable.
kit cars are the cheapest way to go very quickly: theres a thing called a tiger with two engines that does 0-60 in 3.15
I bought a copy of kit car in the local news agents. I couldn't have felt shiftier if I'd been reaching up for Razzle and Asian babes (I've got them on subscription to save embarrasment).
it seems the world of kit magazines is at war at the moment, with the two dominent protaganists in the market having an open slanging match in print: the air is electric with accusations of of dodgy deal, fiddled sales figures, you said this/no I didn't/yes you did you lying fat bastard.....and so on, all much to the amusement of the readers. It made me wish the world of mainstream car mags wasn't so polite.
My guide to the show was Ian Ayre from Kit car, who, amusingly was expecting to get his head kicked in by the staff of Which kit..the shows sponsors. Sadly nothing kicked off.
The punters all looked relativley normal, while the people flogging things seemed refreshingly BS free.
I was amazed by a replica diablo that you would stuggle to tell from the real thing; I admired the ingenuity of it's creators but couldn't help thinking such talent could be put to better use on something original like the AGM, which could have passed for a TVR prototype.
I thought the Suffolk Jaguar ss100 was wonderfull,....Yet I'd run a mile from any of the XK120 inspired creations on offer.
....building, owning and driving kits, replicas and fakes doesn't hurt anything except my sense of aesthetics and nobody should take any notice of that as I'm a well known purist bigot when it comes to cars.I can understand the urge to want to build a car with your own hands as a form of relaxation, I just think that people should be made to dismantle them again afterwards.
END OF ARTICLE.
So there you go, Martin Buckley's view on kits, basically with every compliment is an insult...is that what they call "balanced" reporting?
Just read this article in the newsagents this morning. Well I certainly wasn't going to waste money buying a copy of evo.
Found it typical of the snobby mainstream journo crap that put me off buying evo years ago. The thrill of driving? More like all about having 'the right badge'.
Of course it has to be said that the Tanner v Filby war hardly does the industry any favours in the eyes of the general public or the mainstream.
However, that in no way affects the quality of the cars the industry produces or the performance and driving thrills available from them. It's just that snobby mainstream hacks like Martin Buckley can't look far enough down their noses to see that.
Found it typical of the snobby mainstream journo crap that put me off buying evo years ago. The thrill of driving? More like all about having 'the right badge'.
Of course it has to be said that the Tanner v Filby war hardly does the industry any favours in the eyes of the general public or the mainstream.
However, that in no way affects the quality of the cars the industry produces or the performance and driving thrills available from them. It's just that snobby mainstream hacks like Martin Buckley can't look far enough down their noses to see that.
grahambell said:
.
Of course it has to be said that the Tanner v Filby war hardly does the industry any favours in the eyes of the general public or the mainstream.
I think that as far as the publication is concerned, Den has said that this is now "old news" following the feedback he recieved from us!
I'm not expecting to see all of the "Pinocchio Fibly" and "The End is Neigh" stuff in next month's KC mag.
Meeja 
As for Martin Buckley's words. I wonder if he includes TVR and Lotus in his list of 'purist' cars. If so has he looked at the build quality of such marks recently (not that you ever hear of things falling of or breaking much)
In the style of Martin, IMO 'TVR's are an expensive way of going fairly fast'
Another thought. Does he include race cars in his 'purist' list. Now tell me a race car isn't essentially a kit!
I would need to read the whole article to make a more informed descision, but on what has been posted here, I'd say he was talking out of his
As for Martin Buckley's words. I wonder if he includes TVR and Lotus in his list of 'purist' cars. If so has he looked at the build quality of such marks recently (not that you ever hear of things falling of or breaking much)
In the style of Martin, IMO 'TVR's are an expensive way of going fairly fast'
Another thought. Does he include race cars in his 'purist' list. Now tell me a race car isn't essentially a kit!
I would need to read the whole article to make a more informed descision, but on what has been posted here, I'd say he was talking out of his
I don't think we should get too upset about all this. Columns are written to provoke a reaction and are meant to be purely opinion. Of course everyone wont agree.
Evo tends to give good coverage to kit cars in the more 'serious' parts of the magazine. Still the best car mag you can buy IMO.
Evo tends to give good coverage to kit cars in the more 'serious' parts of the magazine. Still the best car mag you can buy IMO.
I wouldn't take the article too seriously. Martin Buckley's column last month slated Alfa's and those who are passionate about them, prompting angry letters in this month's issue. I think he is clearly in the business of trying to be controversial and provoke a lively debate. If I remember from his previous tenure on one of the classic mags, this is a man with fairly eclectic tastes himself - I think he ran an NSU Ro80 and had a series of obscure Italian classic saloons. For my money that makes him a proper enthusiast with a right to opinions rather than a snob as suggested on this thread.
And as for EVO, I reckon it is the most liberal of the current crop of car magazines and is not at all averse to challenging accepted wisdom. We're talking about a mag the co-editor of which has just build a trackday car based on a Mk1 Capri with a 5.3L Rover V8. Doesn't get more down to earth than that in my books! (even if it did cost him silly money to do).
So, those that haven't done so, read the article before slagging off Buckley and EVO, otherwise you are being more narrow minded than you are accusing him of being. At least he has taken the time to do his research and his facts are accurate! Apart that is from the implication that the public slanging is a two way street, when it clearly isn't.
For me, the interesting thing that the article illustrates is the fact that this ongoing petty dispute is making the Kit Car industry look like a joke. No-one actually cares about the history between KC and WK, it just looks childish and unprofessional. The whole carry-on will put off potential enthusiasts from getting involved in the scene and result in lost sales for an industry which has never had it easy at the best of times. Regardless of what he may of may not have done, at least Filby is keeping some dignity by not getting dragged into the public slanging.
And as for EVO, I reckon it is the most liberal of the current crop of car magazines and is not at all averse to challenging accepted wisdom. We're talking about a mag the co-editor of which has just build a trackday car based on a Mk1 Capri with a 5.3L Rover V8. Doesn't get more down to earth than that in my books! (even if it did cost him silly money to do).
So, those that haven't done so, read the article before slagging off Buckley and EVO, otherwise you are being more narrow minded than you are accusing him of being. At least he has taken the time to do his research and his facts are accurate! Apart that is from the implication that the public slanging is a two way street, when it clearly isn't.
For me, the interesting thing that the article illustrates is the fact that this ongoing petty dispute is making the Kit Car industry look like a joke. No-one actually cares about the history between KC and WK, it just looks childish and unprofessional. The whole carry-on will put off potential enthusiasts from getting involved in the scene and result in lost sales for an industry which has never had it easy at the best of times. Regardless of what he may of may not have done, at least Filby is keeping some dignity by not getting dragged into the public slanging.
Hmm, I'm not sure Mr.Filby has any dignity to keep if you look at the outcome of his court case....
and I can't believe anything involving Messrs.Filby and Tanner would put off anyone who actually wanted to build themselves a car!!! Why ever would that happen, I mean really, in the real world....
and I can't believe anything involving Messrs.Filby and Tanner would put off anyone who actually wanted to build themselves a car!!! Why ever would that happen, I mean really, in the real world....
I agree with Ferg, but I don’t suppose that will surprise anybody.
What surprises me is this dichotomy:-
The Goose and the Gander spring to mind.
This last bit puzzles me tremendously.
Are you saying that if a man committed murder (Regardless of what he may of may not have done) and he kept his gob shut (by not getting dragged into the public slanging) then he’d be alright (at least Filby is keeping some dignity) in your sight?
Seems odd to me
.
This is EVO speak for the fact that Ian Ayre was barred from the show. Seems to me to be inconsistent with the butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth image that’s attributed to Fib’s above.
Doesn’t feel dignified when you’re on the wrong end of it.
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Monday 10th November 23:25
What surprises me is this dichotomy:-
chris_n said:
I think he (Martin Buckley) is clearly in the business of trying to be controversial and provoke a lively debate.
(Due to his background) For my money that makes him a proper enthusiast with a right to opinions . . . .
At least he has taken the time to do his research and his facts are accurate!
The Goose and the Gander spring to mind.
This last bit puzzles me tremendously.
chris_n said:
Regardless of what he may of may not have done, at least Filby is keeping some dignity by not getting dragged into the public slanging.
Are you saying that if a man committed murder (Regardless of what he may of may not have done) and he kept his gob shut (by not getting dragged into the public slanging) then he’d be alright (at least Filby is keeping some dignity) in your sight?
Seems odd to me
. MartinBuckley said:
My guide to the show was Ian Ayre from Kit car, who, amusingly was expecting to get his head kicked in by the staff of Which kit? The shows sponsors. Sadly nothing kicked off.
This is EVO speak for the fact that Ian Ayre was barred from the show. Seems to me to be inconsistent with the butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth image that’s attributed to Fib’s above.
Doesn’t feel dignified when you’re on the wrong end of it.
Den.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Monday 10th November 23:25
Kitcarman, please enlighten me as to where the dichotomy lies in my statements?
As for this rubbish ...
... your analogy between your minor civil wranglings with Filby and a serious criminal matter is so asinine that it only serves to support my point.
Or are you now accusing Filby of a capital offence?
As for this rubbish ...
kitcarman said:
Are you saying that if a man committed murder (Regardless of what he may of may not have done) and he kept his gob shut (by not getting dragged into the public slanging) then he’d be alright (at least Filby is keeping some dignity) in your sight?
... your analogy between your minor civil wranglings with Filby and a serious criminal matter is so asinine that it only serves to support my point.
Or are you now accusing Filby of a capital offence?
chris_n said:
Kitcarman, please enlighten me as to where the dichotomy lies in my statements?
Chris,
I’ve reproduced your statements again here:-
kitcarman said:The dichotomy is in the fact that I’m in the business of being controversial to provoke lively debate. My background surely qualifies me as a proper enthusiast (hence entitled to my opinions). The facts that I’ve published are researched and accurate.
I think he (Martin Buckley) is clearly in the business of trying to be controversial and provoke a lively debate.
(Due to his background) For my money that makes him a proper enthusiast with a right to opinions . . . .
At least he has taken the time to do his research and his facts are accurate!
My difficulty, the dichotomy, is in understanding why what’s good for Mr Buckley isn’t good for Mr Kitcarman.
chris_n said:If my use of the word murder confuses you then substitute it with ones I could have used, like ‘spiteful character assassination’, ‘lying with impunity’, ‘deceiving customers for profit’. Grab the principle please!
As for this rubbish ... kitcarman said:... your analogy between your minor civil wranglings with Filby and a serious criminal matter is so asinine that it only serves to support my point.
Are you saying that if a man committed murder (Regardless of what he may of may not have done) and he kept his gob shut (by not getting dragged into the public slanging) then he’d be alright (at least Filby is keeping some dignity) in your sight?
Or are you now accusing Filby of a capital offence?
Given the man’s position of trust and the ‘Which?’ in the title of his magazine, I’d say my charges are sufficient to warrant his comment.
Your point seems to be that he can do anything provided he does so with dignity AND that dignity equates to claiming the 5th amendment. Sorry, but I believe silence in the face of such charges is tantamount to admission. It’s most certainly not dignified in IMHO. In any event, he's engaged in non-dignified activities which are bound to enflame the situation from my perspective (which you choose to ignor). Finally, I agree with Ferg
Ferg said:BTW, does describing someone else’s work as “this rubbish ...” qualify as dignified or do I need speak of the Goose and Gander again ?
Hmm, I'm not sure Mr.Filby has any dignity to keep if you look at the outcome of his court case....
Den.
PS. I'm sincerely hurt by your trivialising what Fib's did to me over a period of 5 years.
>> Edited by kitcarman on Tuesday 11th November 02:18
kitcarman said:
The dichotomy is in the fact that I’m in the business of being controversial to provoke lively debate. My background surely qualifies me as a proper enthusiast (hence entitled to my opinions). The facts that I’ve published are researched and accurate.
I'm not questioning for a moment that you are qualified to state views or trigger a debate. I have stated in other threads you clearly have loads of useful stuff to say. My point all along is that you've made the Filby point at length and it is now becoming tiresome to the point of actually undermining your position. It was useful and interesting initially.
kitcarman said:
My difficulty, the dichotomy, is in understanding why what’s good for Mr Buckley isn’t good for Mr Kitcarman.
The difference between Buckley and yourself is that with his point now made, I suspect his column will not keep slagging off Kit Cars month after month as he recognises he has to keep making new points to keep people interested.
kitcarman said:
If my use of the word murder confuses you
No, not at all.
kitcarman said:
BTW, does describing someone else’s work as “this rubbish ...” qualify as dignified or do I need speak of the Goose and Gander again ?
OK, let me rephrase that. Your analogy was logically invalid. Clearly to be more dignified I should have followed KC practice and obtained a picture of you and modified it in Photoshop to add a Pinnochio nose or similar.
kitcarman said:
PS. I'm sincerely hurt by your trivialising what Fib's did to me over a period of 5 years.
Don’t be hurt, it’s not personal. I don’t know you or Filby from Adam. You came on here and invited this debate. I’m just giving you an objective view from a kit car buying customer. Take my feedback on board or not as you see fit, but I certainly have nothing against you personally. Any time you want to stop getting my feedback, you can stop asking for it on here.
chris_n said:You describe what Fib’s has done (is still doing) as “minor civil wranglings” and his quietness as “keeping some dignity”. Sadly, that indicates that you patently haven’t yet got the point.
My point all along is that you've made the Filby point. . . .
Having said this, I accept that if I haven’t communicated it by now then I probably never shall
. That’s why I’ve not recently raised any new threads on this subject
, save for the supply of hard factual information (ie sales figures) which I was ‘ordered’ to do
. Others have posted new threads
which were clearly going to attract my response
. Take this one for example “Playground Antics” and others like “WTF”, “Question for Den”, “Kit Car Magazine Questions”, “Den Tanner gives discount shock!!!”, “Competition for Den and Peter”. 
So who is driving this debate? Don’t get me wrong out there, I’m well into participation
but feel slightly miffed at being blamed for all the fall-out. Den
To be honest, I wish some people would read all the threads before posting.
Den has stated in at least two threads that i can think of that the attacks on pinnochio in his magazine have now ceased.
Yet people still drag it up again and again?
By posting comments about the attacks, it is just going to wind our Den up (justifiably) and if he didn't vent his anger here, he would probably self combust!
Den has stated in at least two threads that i can think of that the attacks on pinnochio in his magazine have now ceased.
Yet people still drag it up again and again?
By posting comments about the attacks, it is just going to wind our Den up (justifiably) and if he didn't vent his anger here, he would probably self combust!
meeja said:
it is just going to wind our Den up (justifiably) and if he didn't vent his anger here, he would probably self combust!
Perish the thought!!!!
I can see the headlines now...
"Large plume of smoke spotted over Sussex as man spontainiously combusts".........
Thank god for this forum....
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