Discussion
howdy, just wondering what you all think of donors, i was going to go for the sierra but what alternatives are there that are front engine and rear wheel drive, and also cheap and easy to get hold of? since im buildihng from scratch i nedd to decide on a donor but wanted to stay away from the sierra cos if you look at kits available and there donor cars about 80% already use teh sierra, any opinions?
Cheers,
Russ.
Cheers,
Russ.
BMW - 3 Series, either 4 or 6 cylinder, IRS rear end and high quality components! Possible problems could be the amount of castor angle they use, I assume you wouldn't want to incorporate power steering?? Rear axles are very good though, I would use some sort of De Dion arrangement although true independant could be achieved fairly easily, dependant on packaging constraints......
annodomini2 said: Jag, good mechanicals and cheap, loads and loads of old xj6's with no mot from rot about
Also ridiculously over-engineered, heavy and complicated. Plus the rebuild parts aint that cheap.
(I presently have most of the oily bits from an XJ6 sitting in my garage getting in the way)
Cheers, Phil
The type of vehicle you are looking to build might influence the donor, for example to get the proportions right some of the cobra replicas need to have the track reduced on the jaguar 'axles'.
If you were looking at a smallish light kitcar then that could also rule out a couple of other donors, such as 5 series BMW, smaller Mercedes, Toyota Supra, erm, I'm running out of cars now. This is the reason why so many firms use the Sierra, there's so many of them out there available for peanuts and you can use virtually the whole car without needing to source other parts.
How about the MGB? Not a recent car I admit, but lots still about, NG still use them as a donor. The only other car I could think of that's dropping in price now is the Mazda Mx5.
If you were looking at a smallish light kitcar then that could also rule out a couple of other donors, such as 5 series BMW, smaller Mercedes, Toyota Supra, erm, I'm running out of cars now. This is the reason why so many firms use the Sierra, there's so many of them out there available for peanuts and you can use virtually the whole car without needing to source other parts.
How about the MGB? Not a recent car I admit, but lots still about, NG still use them as a donor. The only other car I could think of that's dropping in price now is the Mazda Mx5.
cheers guys, the bmw 3 series looks interestin, there were plenty made and they certainly dont fall apart too easily, they have a trailing arm setup right? it shouldnt be too hard to modify that to suitthe suspenssion. does any one know of a transaxle that will fit the bmw 3 series engines, and will the bmw drive shafts fit the transaxle? not too important but im going for all out compatibility, the rear diff will allow a motor bike engine to be used pretty easily (it is mid engined) but being able to use the donor engines will really broaden the horizon.
i looked at the jag parts a while ago but decided that the rear setup was way ott for a bike engined car, plus as said, recon parts are extortionate. but the bmw 3 series looks like a pretty good compromise.
i looked at the jag parts a while ago but decided that the rear setup was way ott for a bike engined car, plus as said, recon parts are extortionate. but the bmw 3 series looks like a pretty good compromise.
suparuss said: cheers guys, the bmw 3 series looks interestin, there were plenty made and they certainly dont fall apart too easily, they have a trailing arm setup right? it shouldnt be too hard to modify that to suitthe suspenssion. does any one know of a transaxle that will fit the bmw 3 series engines, and will the bmw drive shafts fit the transaxle? not too important but im going for all out compatibility, the rear diff will allow a motor bike engine to be used pretty easily (it is mid engined) but being able to use the donor engines will really broaden the horizon.
i looked at the jag parts a while ago but decided that the rear setup was way ott for a bike engined car, plus as said, recon parts are extortionate. but the bmw 3 series looks like a pretty good compromise.
I'm confused, what do you want a transaxle for? And you now mention a mid engine format, you mentioned front engine rear drive earlier??
If you are after a transaxle set up with mid engine format, the cheapest will be to get and engine/box out of something like an Audi 80 pre 1990 (Not sure post 1990). They have fore aft mounted engine/gearbox with front wheel drive, this may suit better??????
Alternatively, if you are going mid engine, why not use transverse mounted engine/gearboxes - ie Ford/VW/Honda/etc etc etc, see Meerkat/Sylva/Marlin/etc for inspiration.
yeah, i want a front engined rear wheel drive donor simply cos itll have the rear diff for the bike engine, and all the necessary stuff for rear wheel drive, im probably confused as to what a "transaxle" actually is, i want to be able to use the engines from the donor (in this case, the bmw) with a mid engined car gearbox as a viable option in the future. like the new era thing that tiger are building with the mid mounted zetec.
probably seems daft, but there is logic in my plan somewhere.
probably seems daft, but there is logic in my plan somewhere.
suparuss said: yeah, i want a front engined rear wheel drive donor simply cos itll have the rear diff for the bike engine, and all the necessary stuff for rear wheel drive, im probably confused as to what a "transaxle" actually is, i want to be able to use the engines from the donor (in this case, the bmw) with a mid engined car gearbox as a viable option in the future. like the new era thing that tiger are building with the mid mounted zetec.
probably seems daft, but there is logic in my plan somewhere.
Sorry but I am not sure where the logice is, it sounds like you are preparing to design two totally different cars in one!
Transaxle, like a Beetle gearbox, where the drive shafts come straight out.
For this type of car you are looking at, the best option would be, as mentioned, an Audi 80 - front engine, front wheel drive, but NOT transverse mounted!
Hope this helps......
I think what he means is rear diff, and supporting hardware (drive shafts suspension etc.)
bmw would work, but i think the ford diff is lighter. Weight being critical in a bike engined car, plus theres a lot more about and I would have thought the tiger would be setup for ford, most are.
bmw would work, but i think the ford diff is lighter. Weight being critical in a bike engined car, plus theres a lot more about and I would have thought the tiger would be setup for ford, most are.
I've not seen any mid engined bike engined cars that have used the sierra rear diff, IIRC they seem to use a bespoke item driven via chain (Westfield XTR2, MK GT1), the ones with a 'standard' rear end & bike engine (like the Tiger) have had the bike engine up front.
Sounds like you'd need to have two very different rear ends to the chassis to cope with the choice of bike or car engines. I guess you could use a subframe to mount engine & box/diff to but there would have to be a weight penalty doing that.
Would be simpler to choose between which engine you want to design the chassis around.
Check out www.locostbuilders.co.uk/ for some ideas as there is a section on mid engined cars there.
Sounds like you'd need to have two very different rear ends to the chassis to cope with the choice of bike or car engines. I guess you could use a subframe to mount engine & box/diff to but there would have to be a weight penalty doing that.
Would be simpler to choose between which engine you want to design the chassis around.
Check out www.locostbuilders.co.uk/ for some ideas as there is a section on mid engined cars there.
hmm, this is getting complicated. i cant really find much info in the way of transaxles that will fit the bmw engines. does anyone know what the gearbox is on the transverse mounted zetec and if the drive shafts from the rear wheel drive sierra are compatible? this is probably a bit too specific for a kit car forum, but maybe ill get lucky
suparuss said: hmm, this is getting complicated. i cant really find much info in the way of transaxles that will fit the bmw engines. does anyone know what the gearbox is on the transverse mounted zetec and if the drive shafts from the rear wheel drive sierra are compatible? this is probably a bit too specific for a kit car forum, but maybe ill get lucky
WTF! Too specific for a kit car forum, are you starting to doubt the advise given??? If anybody is getting confused I think it is you, not the people reading and posting for you.
If you want to fit the gearbox from a zetec engine (ie transverse mounted) why on earth would you want to use Sierra driveshafts??? Use the driveshaft already in it!!!!!!!!!!!
Remind me to never step foot in what ever road hazard you are trying to design.
What exactly are you trying to design?
I am getting the impression you intend to build a mid-engined car, with 2 engine options:
1) longitudinally mounted (thats unusual) bike engine/box, connecting to a RWD diff and driveshafts (eg sierra, BMW)
2) longitudinally mounted 'car' engine (inline 4?) connected to a transaxle and driveshafts (eg Audi, Hewland)
That right? Bit confused why you started mentioning transverse type car gearboxes though...
I would be concerned with the above options that the same chassis would be too heavy for option 1) or not strong enough for option 2).
Plus it aint gonna be a particlarly short vehicle.
Come on, tell us your plans in more detail - I for one am interested.
Cheers, Phil
I am getting the impression you intend to build a mid-engined car, with 2 engine options:
1) longitudinally mounted (thats unusual) bike engine/box, connecting to a RWD diff and driveshafts (eg sierra, BMW)
2) longitudinally mounted 'car' engine (inline 4?) connected to a transaxle and driveshafts (eg Audi, Hewland)
That right? Bit confused why you started mentioning transverse type car gearboxes though...
I would be concerned with the above options that the same chassis would be too heavy for option 1) or not strong enough for option 2).
Plus it aint gonna be a particlarly short vehicle.
Come on, tell us your plans in more detail - I for one am interested.
Cheers, Phil
Phil, that's what I was trying to say in my earlier post, but didn't phrase it as well as you!
Annodomini2, I think that's what Westfield & MK use in the Xtr2/Gt1, the reverse 'gear' either mechanical (by quaife) or an electric motor has been used in front engined bike powered cars quite happily too.
Suparuss, if you can describe to us what exactly you are trying to build/design perhaps we can help. You are being far too vague at the moment for us to be specific with answers.
>> Edited by peetbee on Friday 6th June 11:37
Annodomini2, I think that's what Westfield & MK use in the Xtr2/Gt1, the reverse 'gear' either mechanical (by quaife) or an electric motor has been used in front engined bike powered cars quite happily too.
Suparuss, if you can describe to us what exactly you are trying to build/design perhaps we can help. You are being far too vague at the moment for us to be specific with answers.
>> Edited by peetbee on Friday 6th June 11:37
sorry mark b, but ive read thoroughly what ive previously posted and cant find anything relating to transverse mounted engines. as far as i know a gearbox that mounts in line with the out put shaft on an engine is called a transaxle. "trans" being part of the word transverse i think i can see where youve been caught out. if i ever get enough information to design my "road hazard", it will be MY "road hazard" and ill proud of everything ive learned while building it, if you dont like it thats your problem and not something i have time to think about.
Now back the usefull part-
my intentions are exactly as described by filmidget and peetbee, i want the car to be compatible with a wide variety of engines so as to appeal to a wider range of drivers, the bike engine setup will have the bike engine with sprocket facing towards the rear of the car, mating straight onto a reverse gearbox, with chain linking the output of the reverse box to a rear diff input shaft (ive been look at engineering grade duplex roller chain, wich is a third stronger than standard bike chain, and less susceptive to stretching, plus a wide variety of sprockets are available which means any final drive ratio is possible and easy to change if necessary) so the bike engine setup is not a problem, all i need is a donor car that has an engine capable of being mated to an inline gearbox, but as standard is rear wheel drive and has a rear diff.
there are two ays of doing it tho, either have a front wheel drive donor vehicle with inline gear box where you would source the rear diff if you want a bike engine in the kit car, obviously this route would suit people who want a standard car engine. or use a donor with rear wheel drive and a diff, where if you want a standard car engine you would have to source an inline gear box to fit the donor car engine, this route suiting people who want a bike engine in the kit car.
so back to my question- does any one know of an inline gear box that will fit the bmw 3 series engines? the hewland box as said is way expensive, nd not designed for road use according to the hewland website. the audi 80 looks very promising tho, but i would need a rear diff capable of accepting the audi drivshafts plus a second set of front hubs/uprights would be needed since they will be used at the rear.
i agree it would be a lot more simple to just have either a bike engine or a car engine, but thats been done allready hasnt it? i want something different.
and i do apreciate help, i would get nowhere without it.
Cheers,
Russ.
>> Edited by suparuss on Friday 6th June 16:45
Now I'm starting to get confused. This car your designing sounds like it's going to have a bigger bum than a Renault Megane!
My understanding of transaxles is that they normally contain the diff, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
This would mean that you need a transaxle for a car engine and a seperate diff/reverse gear for the bike engine.
If you used the Audi transaxle the driveshafts and hubs could be used, you'd just need to sort wishbones and a tie rod to stop the hubs turning. Again look at Sylva Mojo2 for tips. Just remember to sort different calipers for the handrake mechanism!
The bike engine could use the westfield/MK style chain driven diff, I'd also be tempted to use an electric reverse as it should be cheaper/lighter.
I think you are going to struggle to find a single donor for your car and that going for a front wheel drive car is the easier way to find it, bike engined version is going to need a lot of different parts from the car engined version.
Again, what type of car are you looking to build, are you sure that there is a market for the different versions bearing in mind the difficulties in developing them? And no I haven't answered all your questions I've just asked you more!
My understanding of transaxles is that they normally contain the diff, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
This would mean that you need a transaxle for a car engine and a seperate diff/reverse gear for the bike engine.
If you used the Audi transaxle the driveshafts and hubs could be used, you'd just need to sort wishbones and a tie rod to stop the hubs turning. Again look at Sylva Mojo2 for tips. Just remember to sort different calipers for the handrake mechanism!
The bike engine could use the westfield/MK style chain driven diff, I'd also be tempted to use an electric reverse as it should be cheaper/lighter.
I think you are going to struggle to find a single donor for your car and that going for a front wheel drive car is the easier way to find it, bike engined version is going to need a lot of different parts from the car engined version.
Again, what type of car are you looking to build, are you sure that there is a market for the different versions bearing in mind the difficulties in developing them? And no I haven't answered all your questions I've just asked you more!
ok ill explain a little different-
im not at all concerend about the bike engine setup, thats all sorted, thought about and final decisions made.
the car engine-
say i use the bmw 3 series donor car, (just because someone suggested it in this topic, and it seems a good idea) i get all the necessary stuff for the rear wheel drive, exept im going mid engined so i cant use the gear box, i can use the engine if i find a transaxle that will fit it. transaxles seem to have most of the casing sticking out the back, so i really dont think itll be too long. so again, if i can find a transaxle, (thats a longitudinally mounted gearbox) which will fit the bmw engine with some sort of mounting plate, then i can use the bmw engine in the kit car, meaning i only have to source the transaxle from another donor, no matter whether you want a bike engine or car engine, you only need to source one part from another vehicle (not including the reverse box for the bike engine, which you can buy from quiafe and is no problem). so my question again, does anyone know of a transaxle that will fit the bmw 3 series engine?
at the risk of further confusion ill talk about the audi 80 now, but only as a possible donor for the transaxle-
ive done a lot of research on the audi 80, and it seems that the audi 80/90/100/4000/5000/coupe gt and maybe other models all use the same gearbox, not including the quatro ones which are 4wd, so there are plenty of these about. the drive shaft outputs are immediatly behind the clutch bell housing with the bulk of the box behind so even with a long engine this would not make the car back end too long. also if i can get this gearbox to fit the bmw engine, there will also be the option (emphasis on OPTION) to use the engines from the previously mentioned audi models (engine only, not the whole car)
if anyone knows if the audi 80 gearbox will fit, please tell me.
the question being- will the audi 80 gearbox fit the bmw 3 series engines, or does anyone know of a transaxle (longitudinally mounted gearbox with internal diff and driveshaft out puts) that will fit the bmw 3 series engines?
>> Edited by suparuss on Saturday 7th June 13:11
im not at all concerend about the bike engine setup, thats all sorted, thought about and final decisions made.
the car engine-
say i use the bmw 3 series donor car, (just because someone suggested it in this topic, and it seems a good idea) i get all the necessary stuff for the rear wheel drive, exept im going mid engined so i cant use the gear box, i can use the engine if i find a transaxle that will fit it. transaxles seem to have most of the casing sticking out the back, so i really dont think itll be too long. so again, if i can find a transaxle, (thats a longitudinally mounted gearbox) which will fit the bmw engine with some sort of mounting plate, then i can use the bmw engine in the kit car, meaning i only have to source the transaxle from another donor, no matter whether you want a bike engine or car engine, you only need to source one part from another vehicle (not including the reverse box for the bike engine, which you can buy from quiafe and is no problem). so my question again, does anyone know of a transaxle that will fit the bmw 3 series engine?
at the risk of further confusion ill talk about the audi 80 now, but only as a possible donor for the transaxle-
ive done a lot of research on the audi 80, and it seems that the audi 80/90/100/4000/5000/coupe gt and maybe other models all use the same gearbox, not including the quatro ones which are 4wd, so there are plenty of these about. the drive shaft outputs are immediatly behind the clutch bell housing with the bulk of the box behind so even with a long engine this would not make the car back end too long. also if i can get this gearbox to fit the bmw engine, there will also be the option (emphasis on OPTION) to use the engines from the previously mentioned audi models (engine only, not the whole car)
if anyone knows if the audi 80 gearbox will fit, please tell me.
the question being- will the audi 80 gearbox fit the bmw 3 series engines, or does anyone know of a transaxle (longitudinally mounted gearbox with internal diff and driveshaft out puts) that will fit the bmw 3 series engines?
>> Edited by suparuss on Saturday 7th June 13:11
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