RE: Caterham R400
Monday 31st March 2003
Caterham R400
April launch for 200bhp 7
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April will see Caterham launch the Superlight R400 as part of the latest range for 2003.
The R400 is directly derived from last year’s class winning Nurburgring 24 Hours racecar and the hugely successful UK and European Superlight race championship. The new model sits just below the flagship R500.
The R400 weighs in at just 490kgs but is capable sprinting to sixty mph in just 3.9 seconds.
The MG supplied 1.8-litre X Power engine boasts 200bhp (the equivalent of 400bhp per tonne) and 150lbs ft of torque at 5750 rpm.
Sitting on 15" bespoke Avon-shod alloys, the Superlight R400 comes complete with a unique stack instrumentation dashboard, Caterham composite bucket race seats, four-point race harness and wind deflector in lieu of a windscreen as standard. The full windscreen and weather equipment costs £855 as an option.
Hand-built at Caterham’s Dartford factory for £29,950, the R400 - like all 7s - is also available in component form for those enthusiastic enough to self-build at £27,700 on the road.
Simon Nearn, managing director of Caterham Cars commented: "The R400 may be a road car, but it has a unique motor racing heritage. Devised, developed and honed during the heat of competition around the tracks of Europe in our race championship and proven beyond doubt at the gruelling 24 hour Nurburgring race last summer, this is a truly special high performance car."
The new model has been launched to coincide with the start of the inaugural 13 round Powertrain Caterham R400 Challenge this weekend at Donington Park (April 5/6).
Discussion
Sure it is expensive, but I still believe you get what you pay for - in my opinion there is a considerable and visible diffenrence in build quality when you consider a caterham vs. a westfield.
Not only that, but i think it also shows in the detailing of the car. For some that will be worth the extra expense, for other it simply won't. Each to their own as they say.
As jeremyc has pointed out, you can always get a well-looked-after second hand one, thus possibly getting the best of both worlds...
Not only that, but i think it also shows in the detailing of the car. For some that will be worth the extra expense, for other it simply won't. Each to their own as they say.
As jeremyc has pointed out, you can always get a well-looked-after second hand one, thus possibly getting the best of both worlds...
AS One sorry mate can't agree there. This car is £30k that is A LOT, you can get a factory built Westfield to your exact spec for far less than that. Hey you can buy an Exige, a new Elise for that! (and they are far easier to live with)
Also the westfield display (and for that matter Dax) at Donnington last year were both far more professional and the build quality of the cars were superb. I would say better than the Caterhams that were on display.
I like caterhams but this is clearly not a case of you get what you pay for. I was a potential buyer of a Caterham but I believe they have got their head in the sand. They are not a Morgan they are a kit car firm that build their own cars. Admittedly they have done this for 45 years but that still is something they have to realise. Morgans are unique, there are kit cars that are similar but not a genuine morgan. Caterham do not have that luxury, "its a genuine Caterham" does not have the inspiration of a Morgan.
Performance is not that much over its a Westfield and certainly to the layman they have no major looks difference.
Caterham have got to realise that their car is weekend toy. Practicality is not that high and there is a host of cars that look and drive almost exactly the same at far less prices. Even their website has cars less than 3 years old at £15-£16k a quick browse on the web and look what I found www.findit.co.uk/cars/caterham/514007.htm
thats a hell of a loss for 1 years motoring (£10k). Theres not exactly a shortage of them either (just take the 514007 off the link)
Equally just look at prices for Dax, Westfield and other kit cars available for sale. People buy this car for one reason and thats the drive. If someone can offer a similar drive at half the price you're not going to sell cars.
I hope that they read this forum and realise what their market is saying. If they can't do the car for less then they need to think about a new car, cos the sevenesk car is now seen (and availble) at much cheaper than this.
>> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 1st April 20:39
Also the westfield display (and for that matter Dax) at Donnington last year were both far more professional and the build quality of the cars were superb. I would say better than the Caterhams that were on display.
I like caterhams but this is clearly not a case of you get what you pay for. I was a potential buyer of a Caterham but I believe they have got their head in the sand. They are not a Morgan they are a kit car firm that build their own cars. Admittedly they have done this for 45 years but that still is something they have to realise. Morgans are unique, there are kit cars that are similar but not a genuine morgan. Caterham do not have that luxury, "its a genuine Caterham" does not have the inspiration of a Morgan.
Performance is not that much over its a Westfield and certainly to the layman they have no major looks difference.
Caterham have got to realise that their car is weekend toy. Practicality is not that high and there is a host of cars that look and drive almost exactly the same at far less prices. Even their website has cars less than 3 years old at £15-£16k a quick browse on the web and look what I found www.findit.co.uk/cars/caterham/514007.htm
thats a hell of a loss for 1 years motoring (£10k). Theres not exactly a shortage of them either (just take the 514007 off the link)
Equally just look at prices for Dax, Westfield and other kit cars available for sale. People buy this car for one reason and thats the drive. If someone can offer a similar drive at half the price you're not going to sell cars.
I hope that they read this forum and realise what their market is saying. If they can't do the car for less then they need to think about a new car, cos the sevenesk car is now seen (and availble) at much cheaper than this.
>> Edited by smeagol on Tuesday 1st April 20:39
Interesting (especially for someone that has just bought a Caterham). You can undoubtedly get hold of cheaper Sevenesque cars, but at the top end of the range few have powerplant options that match the K series (sorry XPower) offerings from Caterham (and I'm leaving out bike engines at the moment).
Caterhams also have the racing heritage that should ensure a well sorted chassis (and the Caterham program continues): I don't see this dedication to improving the breed from any other manufacturer on the same scale.
I'll admit my glasses are rose-tinted: I've always wanted a Caterham (born and raised there, y'know), but the cars do provide phenomenal performance and handling. I guess I'll have to try some of the others, just in the interest of science you understand.
>> Edited by jeremyc on Tuesday 1st April 21:22
Caterhams also have the racing heritage that should ensure a well sorted chassis (and the Caterham program continues): I don't see this dedication to improving the breed from any other manufacturer on the same scale.
I'll admit my glasses are rose-tinted: I've always wanted a Caterham (born and raised there, y'know), but the cars do provide phenomenal performance and handling. I guess I'll have to try some of the others, just in the interest of science you understand.
>> Edited by jeremyc on Tuesday 1st April 21:22
This is all echoes of the Caterham documentary thread 
They don't have "options" - you can have any engine you like as long as it's a K-series, in different states of tune. I also think there's far more innovation from the other kit manufacturers - not just Westfield but some of the other lowlier ones.
There certainly are a lot of Caterhams racing, but it always seems to be amongst themselves! However good or bad their racecars are you don't often see them racing against the competition. Happens far more at sprints and hillclimbs and cars from other manufacturers do at least as well.
I'm also a Caterham fan, because they have the rights nothing else has that proper "look", and they also have the tradition and name behind them. However, they are in real danger of leaning on that far too much. There are so many other companies that offer 7-esqe cars these days, all at much lower prices.
The bottom line is that I'd love a Seven, but I simply can't afford one. The most basic 1.4 is 13k as a kit, and I'd be wanting something more along the lines of a Roadsport 140, and that's 17k. The R300 which seems the perfect balance to me is 22k. A few minor bits like paint and it's getting bloody expensive. And really the bike-engined cars are more appealing, and Caterham don't do them.
And even those who can afford 20k+, they must take a step back and think twice about spending that on a fairweather and trackday machine. I know I'd find it hard to justify unless I was seriously loaded.
A fully built MK Indyblade is under 9k - let's call it 10 with some nice seats and other bits. Is an R400 really 3 times better?
They don't have "options" - you can have any engine you like as long as it's a K-series, in different states of tune. I also think there's far more innovation from the other kit manufacturers - not just Westfield but some of the other lowlier ones.
There certainly are a lot of Caterhams racing, but it always seems to be amongst themselves! However good or bad their racecars are you don't often see them racing against the competition. Happens far more at sprints and hillclimbs and cars from other manufacturers do at least as well.
I'm also a Caterham fan, because they have the rights nothing else has that proper "look", and they also have the tradition and name behind them. However, they are in real danger of leaning on that far too much. There are so many other companies that offer 7-esqe cars these days, all at much lower prices.
The bottom line is that I'd love a Seven, but I simply can't afford one. The most basic 1.4 is 13k as a kit, and I'd be wanting something more along the lines of a Roadsport 140, and that's 17k. The R300 which seems the perfect balance to me is 22k. A few minor bits like paint and it's getting bloody expensive. And really the bike-engined cars are more appealing, and Caterham don't do them.
And even those who can afford 20k+, they must take a step back and think twice about spending that on a fairweather and trackday machine. I know I'd find it hard to justify unless I was seriously loaded.
A fully built MK Indyblade is under 9k - let's call it 10 with some nice seats and other bits. Is an R400 really 3 times better?
Smeagol, I understand your arguments, and I do have to say that you have made some good points. I would not disagree when you are saying that a Caterham doesn't even get close to a Morgan - and who would. However, when you are comparing Caterhams with Westfields, I just feel that the Caterham has a feel of quality to it that the Westfield doesn't - even though the depriciation you have mentioned does not support my argument.
I am sure you would find lots of people who are of the same opinion as you - and me.
All the best,
Felix.
I am sure you would find lots of people who are of the same opinion as you - and me.
All the best,
Felix.
>You can undoubtedly get hold of cheaper Sevenesque
>cars, but at the top end of the range few have >powerplant options that match the K series (sorry >XPower) offerings from Caterham (and I'm leaving out >bike engines at the moment).
do what?!?
so the recent Duratec car from Westfield doesn't match a K-series? it is just as light, produces more power and torque, and is _much_ less fragile. don't get me wrong, I quite like K-series, but they do seem to turn to cheese if you try and tune it very far.
and how about the Zetec before it, again reliable and decent power, which is no doubt cheap to buy and run.
there are countless others, including the Toyota 4AGE, XFlow, Pinto, Cosworth...
and you can't just leave out bike engines... they are a reality, don't do a Caterham and ignore them.
>Caterhams also have the racing heritage
right, heritage...
>I don't see this dedication to improving the breed
>from any other manufacturer on the same scale.
open your eyes. look at the RGB race series, stacked full of kit cars. as someone else said, Caterham have some series for Caterhams. hope they win it.
and if cars like the XTR2, MK GT1, etc aren't showing dedication to improving the breed rather than churning out the same-old same-old, I don't know what is.
>I'll admit my glasses are rose-tinted
as are everyones, just you should still be able to see through them, otherwise they are blinkers.
>I guess I'll have to try some of the others, just in >the interest of science you understand.
I suggest you do. you'll get comparable or dare I suggest better performance and engineering for half the cost.... or buy two!
Moomin
Edited cos I thought I should add a smiley!
>> Edited by moomin on Wednesday 2nd April 13:03
>cars, but at the top end of the range few have >powerplant options that match the K series (sorry >XPower) offerings from Caterham (and I'm leaving out >bike engines at the moment).
do what?!?
so the recent Duratec car from Westfield doesn't match a K-series? it is just as light, produces more power and torque, and is _much_ less fragile. don't get me wrong, I quite like K-series, but they do seem to turn to cheese if you try and tune it very far.
and how about the Zetec before it, again reliable and decent power, which is no doubt cheap to buy and run.
there are countless others, including the Toyota 4AGE, XFlow, Pinto, Cosworth...
and you can't just leave out bike engines... they are a reality, don't do a Caterham and ignore them.
>Caterhams also have the racing heritage
right, heritage...
>I don't see this dedication to improving the breed
>from any other manufacturer on the same scale.
open your eyes. look at the RGB race series, stacked full of kit cars. as someone else said, Caterham have some series for Caterhams. hope they win it.
and if cars like the XTR2, MK GT1, etc aren't showing dedication to improving the breed rather than churning out the same-old same-old, I don't know what is.
>I'll admit my glasses are rose-tinted
as are everyones, just you should still be able to see through them, otherwise they are blinkers.
>I guess I'll have to try some of the others, just in >the interest of science you understand.
I suggest you do. you'll get comparable or dare I suggest better performance and engineering for half the cost.... or buy two!
Moomin
Edited cos I thought I should add a smiley!
>> Edited by moomin on Wednesday 2nd April 13:03
Come on guys Jeremy's only just bought a Superlight R as his first serious track car and doesn't need anyone questioning his 'investment'
For what it's worth when I bought my Caterham (Superlight) last year I wouldn't have considered anything else. My only regrets? you guessed it the k-series.
If I were to make the decision again I'd get a cheaper Caterham and transplant a Duratec into it - 250 reliable BHP for half the price of an R400 engine (CC just quoted me circa £10K yesterday for a crated R400 motor
).
As for the depreciation I'd have to disagree with the comments below. Generally Caterhams hold their value very well. I'd expect to lose around 15% in my first year. The example given below, £19K for a one year old Supersport was NOT an R400. I'd imagine that particular car was only about £2K less than list!
Still love my Superlight though, I just wish I could get more reliable horsepower at a reasonable price
Jeremy - I trust you're towing your SuperlightR to Folembrey (with the Cerbera?!?!?!) - only 5 weeks to go
Mike.
For what it's worth when I bought my Caterham (Superlight) last year I wouldn't have considered anything else. My only regrets? you guessed it the k-series.
If I were to make the decision again I'd get a cheaper Caterham and transplant a Duratec into it - 250 reliable BHP for half the price of an R400 engine (CC just quoted me circa £10K yesterday for a crated R400 motor
). As for the depreciation I'd have to disagree with the comments below. Generally Caterhams hold their value very well. I'd expect to lose around 15% in my first year. The example given below, £19K for a one year old Supersport was NOT an R400. I'd imagine that particular car was only about £2K less than list!
Still love my Superlight though, I just wish I could get more reliable horsepower at a reasonable price
Jeremy - I trust you're towing your SuperlightR to Folembrey (with the Cerbera?!?!?!) - only 5 weeks to go
Mike.
Thanks for the support Mike, but have no fear my eyes were wide open going into Caterham ownership. I would echo your point on excellent residuals: used SLRs are still around privately for 21-22K.
MikeE said: Come on guys Jeremy's only just bought a Superlight R as his first serious track car and doesn't need anyone questioning his 'investment'
Jeremy - I trust you're towing your SuperlightR to Folembrey (with the Cerbera?!?!?!) - only 5 weeks to go
I'm towing to Folembray with my RS2 - what have you done about sorting the ferry (I need to change from my original Eurotunnel booking)? Looking forward to it having whetted my apetite with a full day at Donington recently.
I'm not questioning anyones investment... after all, not many cars can be termed an investment in the obvious financial sense.
I was questioning his implication that there are no alternatives to the K-series, and blatantly ignoring the bike engine option (which is quite possibly the best choice for a track orientated car - though they are IMO equally at home on the road), and the 'racing heritage' which Caterham have, whilst others don't improve the breed. Couldn't be further from the truth IMO.
Heck I was a gnats nadger away from buying a Superlight myself, and would have done had I not thought it would be 'sensible' to at least pay a cursory glance at the competition when spending such an amount of money... I ended up buying the competition!
moomin
I was questioning his implication that there are no alternatives to the K-series, and blatantly ignoring the bike engine option (which is quite possibly the best choice for a track orientated car - though they are IMO equally at home on the road), and the 'racing heritage' which Caterham have, whilst others don't improve the breed. Couldn't be further from the truth IMO.
Heck I was a gnats nadger away from buying a Superlight myself, and would have done had I not thought it would be 'sensible' to at least pay a cursory glance at the competition when spending such an amount of money... I ended up buying the competition!
moomin
I think it's difficult to be too analytical about buying this sort of car, and a lot of arguments that border on the 'perjorative', for example pointing to badge snobbery, totally miss the point.
One man's Caterham is another man's Morgan, Elise, Westfield, whatever. You pays your money and takes your choice. The Caterham may be at the higher end of the price scale to buy but then you recoup much of this when you sell it. My SLR was the cheapest car I've ever owned, I think I lost 1k on it over 18+ months. It was grin a minute and I loved it. I personally didn't like the Westfield, mostly for aesthetic reasons. Others do, and that's great. I certainly respect the cars of whatever ilk.
But it's all relative... says the guy who's just spent 46k on a Radical (and it is AWESOME ... just back from shaking it down at Bruntingthorpe)
One man's Caterham is another man's Morgan, Elise, Westfield, whatever. You pays your money and takes your choice. The Caterham may be at the higher end of the price scale to buy but then you recoup much of this when you sell it. My SLR was the cheapest car I've ever owned, I think I lost 1k on it over 18+ months. It was grin a minute and I loved it. I personally didn't like the Westfield, mostly for aesthetic reasons. Others do, and that's great. I certainly respect the cars of whatever ilk.
But it's all relative... says the guy who's just spent 46k on a Radical (and it is AWESOME ... just back from shaking it down at Bruntingthorpe)
Knowing what I know now (nearly bought a Caterham ended up with a Westfield), If I were to do it all again it'd either be a Sylva Phoenix or a Honda powered Elise (for the pure just get in and drive it factor). Caterhams are far too expensive for what they are, Westfields are fundamentally flawed in several key areas. For VFM and pure track ability I don't believe there is anything that can touch a Sylva Striker/Phoenix/Fury.
All very much IMO and that's not taking away from the fact that Caterhams and Westfields are indeed very, very good cars.
All very much IMO and that's not taking away from the fact that Caterhams and Westfields are indeed very, very good cars.
Smeagol ...
Caterham have got to realise that their car is weekend toy. Practicality is not that high and there is a host of cars that look and drive almost exactly the same at far less prices. Even their website has cars less than 3 years old at £15-£16k a quick browse on the web and look what I found www.findit.co.uk/cars/caterham/514007.htm
thats a hell of a loss for 1 years motoring (£10k). Theres not exactly a shortage of them either (just take the 514007 off the link)
I don't understand how you calculated £10k depreciation on this car. There's no way that a 1.8 Supersport (not Superlight ... Supersport) would have been £30k new.
Ian.
Caterham have got to realise that their car is weekend toy. Practicality is not that high and there is a host of cars that look and drive almost exactly the same at far less prices. Even their website has cars less than 3 years old at £15-£16k a quick browse on the web and look what I found www.findit.co.uk/cars/caterham/514007.htm
thats a hell of a loss for 1 years motoring (£10k). Theres not exactly a shortage of them either (just take the 514007 off the link)
I don't understand how you calculated £10k depreciation on this car. There's no way that a 1.8 Supersport (not Superlight ... Supersport) would have been £30k new.
Ian.
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