(Cross Post) Opinions required on two X Flow's
Discussion
Opinions required please on these two X flows that are up for sale, to replace the pile of shrapnel that used to be in my Westie :
ENGINE ONE :
1691cc fresh bore and plateau hone
1300 AE Balanced pistons with pockets machined for valves. Balanced rods, crank, flywheel, clutch cover,
lightened flywheel. Duplex timing gear
ARP Flywheel bolts and big end bolts
New Delphi clutch for 5 speed box
Block has been decked and o-ringed
AE Bearings, Mains, Big ends, Thrusts
Mocal Dry sump pump and home made sump, (can be changed back to standard with new oil pump)
BDA Steel front pulley with Cosworth 24v timing wheel fitted. alloy crank sensor bracket and sensor
Kent 244 cam and followers timing set with offset dowel
Gasflowed cylinder head, 104CFM @ 0.500" valve lift ( checked on superflow 110 flowbench)
Big Valves by Vulcan. Kent Double valves springs to suit camshaft fitted to correct height. Correct Spring retainer caps (steel)
This is brand new unrun, it is worth a fortune
I want £1500 for it, if i add it all up its over 2.5k
ENGINE TWO (which also happens to be MUCH closer to home) :
X-flow for sale, Farndon crank, Cosworth pistons and rods, roller rockers, dry sumped, recent rebuild cost £1200. Dyno'd at 130 bhp at the wheels. AP paddle clutch. Twin 45s. Lightweght alternator, Lucas competition ignition system.
All new valve gear by Paul Ivey. Open to offers.
Thoughts everyone ?
ENGINE ONE :
1691cc fresh bore and plateau hone
1300 AE Balanced pistons with pockets machined for valves. Balanced rods, crank, flywheel, clutch cover,
lightened flywheel. Duplex timing gear
ARP Flywheel bolts and big end bolts
New Delphi clutch for 5 speed box
Block has been decked and o-ringed
AE Bearings, Mains, Big ends, Thrusts
Mocal Dry sump pump and home made sump, (can be changed back to standard with new oil pump)
BDA Steel front pulley with Cosworth 24v timing wheel fitted. alloy crank sensor bracket and sensor
Kent 244 cam and followers timing set with offset dowel
Gasflowed cylinder head, 104CFM @ 0.500" valve lift ( checked on superflow 110 flowbench)
Big Valves by Vulcan. Kent Double valves springs to suit camshaft fitted to correct height. Correct Spring retainer caps (steel)
This is brand new unrun, it is worth a fortune
I want £1500 for it, if i add it all up its over 2.5k
ENGINE TWO (which also happens to be MUCH closer to home) :
X-flow for sale, Farndon crank, Cosworth pistons and rods, roller rockers, dry sumped, recent rebuild cost £1200. Dyno'd at 130 bhp at the wheels. AP paddle clutch. Twin 45s. Lightweght alternator, Lucas competition ignition system.
All new valve gear by Paul Ivey. Open to offers.
Thoughts everyone ?
2nd one sounds good, is it 1600 or 1700 X-Flow?
The only thing I would say is the paddle shift may cause problems, it may not, but like all things, the more complex it is the more things there are to go wrong.
I honestly like the sound of the 2nd one, twin 45's and 130bhp
See if you can get a more comprehensive component list out of him, and what was done/replaced in the "recent rebuild" too.
I don't like "home made sump" in the 1st one, that's what put me off really.
Graham
The only thing I would say is the paddle shift may cause problems, it may not, but like all things, the more complex it is the more things there are to go wrong.
I honestly like the sound of the 2nd one, twin 45's and 130bhp
See if you can get a more comprehensive component list out of him, and what was done/replaced in the "recent rebuild" too. I don't like "home made sump" in the 1st one, that's what put me off really.
Graham
I have asked him for more info on the 2nd one, more along the lines of what you say.
And that's 130 at the wheels too ... so that would work out at (um, grabs calculator, carry the two, licks pencil) about 155 or so at the flywheel.
The home made sump wouldn't be a problem, coz I've got a complete dry sump system on my blown engine which is fine, and could be carried across. But I know what you mean.
Might be wrong, but I dont think it's a paddle shift, I think it's a paddle clutch ... I think that's a kind of heavy duty clutch plate (?)
And that's 130 at the wheels too ... so that would work out at (um, grabs calculator, carry the two, licks pencil) about 155 or so at the flywheel.
The home made sump wouldn't be a problem, coz I've got a complete dry sump system on my blown engine which is fine, and could be carried across. But I know what you mean.
Might be wrong, but I dont think it's a paddle shift, I think it's a paddle clutch ... I think that's a kind of heavy duty clutch plate (?)
Hi Nev,
I know I have mentioned this before, but I will re-iterate. If you are definately going for another X/flow there are plenty on the market, along with a lot of specialists. Try Classic Ford.
Reading these specs, and knowing what i do about X/flow tuning, there are loads of things that Hot Rodders, Rally boys, Roadracers, Street racers do that can get very confusing. For example, changing rocker ratios and using 1300 camshafts, because they have higher lift, etc, etc.
If you are going to spend some real money, get an engine built yourself by one of the many X/flow specialists. You will get an X/flow upto 145 - 155bhp easily using your old 45's, dry sump system, etc etc very easily and it will cost you less than a grand!!
Always be very careful buying a 2nd hand X/flow, there are lots of strange ones out there that could trip you up in the future.
Another note, a home made sump would not bother me at all, they are very easily modified unlike Zetec ally sumps. Lots of people have successfully modified xflow sumps using new sheet metal and a welder.
Alternatively, ditch the old X/flow and put in a modern engine - Zetec/Vauxhall. You'll get a lot more power and at little additional cost????
Good luck
I know I have mentioned this before, but I will re-iterate. If you are definately going for another X/flow there are plenty on the market, along with a lot of specialists. Try Classic Ford.
Reading these specs, and knowing what i do about X/flow tuning, there are loads of things that Hot Rodders, Rally boys, Roadracers, Street racers do that can get very confusing. For example, changing rocker ratios and using 1300 camshafts, because they have higher lift, etc, etc.
If you are going to spend some real money, get an engine built yourself by one of the many X/flow specialists. You will get an X/flow upto 145 - 155bhp easily using your old 45's, dry sump system, etc etc very easily and it will cost you less than a grand!!
Always be very careful buying a 2nd hand X/flow, there are lots of strange ones out there that could trip you up in the future.
Another note, a home made sump would not bother me at all, they are very easily modified unlike Zetec ally sumps. Lots of people have successfully modified xflow sumps using new sheet metal and a welder.
Alternatively, ditch the old X/flow and put in a modern engine - Zetec/Vauxhall. You'll get a lot more power and at little additional cost????
Good luck
Engine 2 sounds the best value to me as the All Steel bottom end will give you a potential to 200 bhp est at the crank without a big BANG !!!!!!!!!!!.
or
Try my Neil Roper 145 bhp est at crank engine for £500 ( at www.wscc.co.uk Parts for Sale on the bulletin board) and see what an expert like Roger King at the 7 Workshop could do for £1,000.
or
Try my Neil Roper 145 bhp est at crank engine for £500 ( at www.wscc.co.uk Parts for Sale on the bulletin board) and see what an expert like Roger King at the 7 Workshop could do for £1,000.
Mark B - got to disagree with you on a couple of points. First of all, I've added up what the parts alone would cost to rebuild my old engine, and I came to just shy of £1000. Adding on machine shop costs and engine specialist build costs, and what's that going to cost ... £1500 ? £2000 ? (in total)
Secondly I've definately discounted swaping for another type of engine, having spoken to people who have done this, they say it's just not worth the hassle, bother and money (£3k-£4k). Plus I dont have the time.
Thanks for the thoughts though
Petrol_Head ... I'll check out that engine, ta !
Secondly I've definately discounted swaping for another type of engine, having spoken to people who have done this, they say it's just not worth the hassle, bother and money (£3k-£4k). Plus I dont have the time.
Thanks for the thoughts though
Petrol_Head ... I'll check out that engine, ta !
More info on the 2nd engine - spoke to the chap for 45 mins last night, the engine was rebuilt 1000 miles and 3 sprint events ago. It's got twin 45's, dry sump, steel crank, cosworth steel rods, cosworth pistons, stage 3 head, roller rockers, 9000 rpm and 150bhp. This is a TOTALLY trick race engine, if you total up the cost of all the parts alone, by my reconing it comes to about £4500 to £5000. However he's wanting £2000 for it complete (which is a fair price for what it is), though I could offset about £400 or £500 of that by selling my old carbs/dry sump system (he wont budge on price, or split the engine)
So, advantages : bomb proof (?), serious bit of kit, more power than I had before
Disadvantages : it's £2000 !, it has done 1000 miles including 3 sprint events (but there again it's going to get thrashed round a track anyway), if it goes bang it's a very expensive rebuild, more frequent light rebuilds ?
Argh, the agony of decision !!
So, advantages : bomb proof (?), serious bit of kit, more power than I had before
Disadvantages : it's £2000 !, it has done 1000 miles including 3 sprint events (but there again it's going to get thrashed round a track anyway), if it goes bang it's a very expensive rebuild, more frequent light rebuilds ?
Argh, the agony of decision !!
Nev,
I appreciate your comments, I hadn't really estimated with you rebuilding your engine. But if you went and bought a reasonable 1700 and put you carbs, sump kit etc etc on it, you will be up and running for less than 500 notes!
Re and engine swap - I am about to change my x/flow for an 1800 zetec - I am estimating £850 for 155bhp! This along with selling my X/flow bits will cost me £300. Don't discount it though, Zetec's and the like used to cost shed loads to fit. If you are keen to know more, email me off list as I have some useful contacts.
I appreciate your comments, I hadn't really estimated with you rebuilding your engine. But if you went and bought a reasonable 1700 and put you carbs, sump kit etc etc on it, you will be up and running for less than 500 notes!
Re and engine swap - I am about to change my x/flow for an 1800 zetec - I am estimating £850 for 155bhp! This along with selling my X/flow bits will cost me £300. Don't discount it though, Zetec's and the like used to cost shed loads to fit. If you are keen to know more, email me off list as I have some useful contacts.
Nev, one thing to bear in mind is that a tuned X-Flow needs a lot more love and attention than a bog standard Zetec.
The more tuning the engine has, the more time you'll have to spend keeping it that way, which is fine if you're racing and want to get the most out of the regulation engine, but for general tooling around/track day use surely ease of maintenance should be a factor.
Mark, I have been wondering what to do when the race-car X-Flow dies, do I replace like for like, do I go bike engined or do I go Zetec, all the options would allow me to contiue racing in some form but Zetec would appear, from your comments to be a credible long term option. How difficult would it be to use my existing (IIRC) 4 sp. type 9 gearbox with a Zetec? Is it possible?
The more tuning the engine has, the more time you'll have to spend keeping it that way, which is fine if you're racing and want to get the most out of the regulation engine, but for general tooling around/track day use surely ease of maintenance should be a factor.
Mark, I have been wondering what to do when the race-car X-Flow dies, do I replace like for like, do I go bike engined or do I go Zetec, all the options would allow me to contiue racing in some form but Zetec would appear, from your comments to be a credible long term option. How difficult would it be to use my existing (IIRC) 4 sp. type 9 gearbox with a Zetec? Is it possible?
First of all, I'm no expert on this, so I might be talking pants
But if you were going to transplant a x flow with a Zetec, wouldn't you have to replace :
engine (obviously !)
all ancillaries, starter, alternator etc
gearbox
propshaft, or mods to propshaft
mods to chassis (different engine and gearbox mounts)
new bodywork on LHS of car
new engine cover (coz exhaust and 'carbs' are on different sides)
Then there's the problems of wiring looms, is the x flow radiator man enough, new dry sump system, wiring loom and electrics (little black box ?), speedo cable ? speedo recalibrated ? tacho recalibrated ? is the zetec cluch cable or hydraulic ?
And probably some bits I've forgotten ?
How could you do all of that for £850 ?
Agree with you absolutely about the reliability side though.
But if you were going to transplant a x flow with a Zetec, wouldn't you have to replace :
engine (obviously !
) all ancillaries, starter, alternator etc
gearbox
propshaft, or mods to propshaft
mods to chassis (different engine and gearbox mounts)
new bodywork on LHS of car
new engine cover (coz exhaust and 'carbs' are on different sides)
Then there's the problems of wiring looms, is the x flow radiator man enough, new dry sump system, wiring loom and electrics (little black box ?), speedo cable ? speedo recalibrated ? tacho recalibrated ? is the zetec cluch cable or hydraulic ?
And probably some bits I've forgotten ?
How could you do all of that for £850 ?
Agree with you absolutely about the reliability side though.
I've thought about doing this conversion and my pricing calculations were not too expensive but well clear of £850.
The ford box and prop will mate with a zetec, although a new clutch is necessary as is a different starter (1.8 CVH Sierra I think). The inlet and outlet are on the same sides as the Xflow so no problem with bodywork mods but you will need a new exhaust manifold. The expensive part is the new ignition system - £500???, as using the stock injection + electrics isn't really feasible (too bulky). This is presuming you would convert carbs which aren't cheap unless you have a spare set knocking around the garage. Engine mounts are easy(ish) to knock up with a welder once the engine is dangling in the engine bay.
I recon on £1500 - £2000 then subtract what you will get for the old Xflow. Not bad for modern reliability and no oil leaks!
On the other hand you could go bike.
The ford box and prop will mate with a zetec, although a new clutch is necessary as is a different starter (1.8 CVH Sierra I think). The inlet and outlet are on the same sides as the Xflow so no problem with bodywork mods but you will need a new exhaust manifold. The expensive part is the new ignition system - £500???, as using the stock injection + electrics isn't really feasible (too bulky). This is presuming you would convert carbs which aren't cheap unless you have a spare set knocking around the garage. Engine mounts are easy(ish) to knock up with a welder once the engine is dangling in the engine bay.
I recon on £1500 - £2000 then subtract what you will get for the old Xflow. Not bad for modern reliability and no oil leaks!
On the other hand you could go bike.
I contemplated exactly the same thing when I nuked the Cosworth. However even though the rebuild was not cheap, it was still in the region of £1000 cheaper than swapping the engine to a Vx XE and that includes the £1000+ I spent on the Pace dry sump system!
Basically engine transplants cost a LOT more than you expect despite the lump itselft being reletively cheap. For example a XE will set you back around £500 but on top of that you will need: Inlet manifold for the carbs, exhaust system, ARP bolts, sump/dry sump, bell housing, clutch/flywheel may need swapping, new alternator likely as it'll need re-locating, deffo new thermostat for track use (pikeys can drill a hole I suppose), engine mounts, bodywork mods for the exhaust, new bonnet as the hole is on the wrong side, prop shaft more than likely will need sorting, potentially a new ignition system but certainly a new loom and a good rolling road session when it's all done.
Now the sensible person would also use this as an opportunity to go to throttle boddies so on top of the price of the SBD 208 kit for example (about £2000) you also need to get an injection fuel tank, pumps and re plumb it all. Once again a session on the rollers will be required.
Only with the 208 kit and dry sump would I have been in the region of the sort of power the Cosworth produces already so despite hassle involved we rebuilt it. Saying that if the XE conversion had been done it would've only cost me around £750 all up if I nuked the engine to swap it out and transfer all the bits over to the new lump. However if I nuke the Cosworth again I reckon it can be rebuilt for not much more (providing the head survives as it did last time). In the mean time I'm always on the look out for a cheap N/A YB that I can buy, strip and rebuild as a spare. Seems the sensible way forward in this case.
As for the X-flows I would be tempted to keep them as boggo as possible if you are planning to do a lot of non-competetive track work. Race engines are tempramental and due to extreme high revvage, will be put under much more stress on a series of trackdays then on doing a few sprints where it's all over in a couple of minutes for about 5 runs. On a track day you'll more than likely will be out for 20mins at a time at very high revs for around 6 or more sessions. Much harder on a car than most forms of racing (endurance racing not included).
Therefore I'm a big proponent of using boggo, disposable engines. This is exactly what we've got in the Snotmobile. Learning from the PPE we bought a XE powered car that is boggo other than being on 45's and having strengthened rod bolts (sensible as the boggo ones are made of chocolate). This way if we pop it it will only cost us around £750 and we're away again on another engine. Hopefully it wont come to that as the engine isn't that stressed (rev limit set at 7000rpm, rod bolts allow revvage to 7750rpm. The power in this trim tails off at 6800ish anyhow) and as we're not racing it there is no need to bang it off the limiter all the time. But if it does happen we've got it covered.
errm, clear as mud then.
Basically engine transplants cost a LOT more than you expect despite the lump itselft being reletively cheap. For example a XE will set you back around £500 but on top of that you will need: Inlet manifold for the carbs, exhaust system, ARP bolts, sump/dry sump, bell housing, clutch/flywheel may need swapping, new alternator likely as it'll need re-locating, deffo new thermostat for track use (pikeys can drill a hole I suppose), engine mounts, bodywork mods for the exhaust, new bonnet as the hole is on the wrong side, prop shaft more than likely will need sorting, potentially a new ignition system but certainly a new loom and a good rolling road session when it's all done.
Now the sensible person would also use this as an opportunity to go to throttle boddies so on top of the price of the SBD 208 kit for example (about £2000) you also need to get an injection fuel tank, pumps and re plumb it all. Once again a session on the rollers will be required.
Only with the 208 kit and dry sump would I have been in the region of the sort of power the Cosworth produces already so despite hassle involved we rebuilt it. Saying that if the XE conversion had been done it would've only cost me around £750 all up if I nuked the engine to swap it out and transfer all the bits over to the new lump. However if I nuke the Cosworth again I reckon it can be rebuilt for not much more (providing the head survives as it did last time). In the mean time I'm always on the look out for a cheap N/A YB that I can buy, strip and rebuild as a spare. Seems the sensible way forward in this case.
As for the X-flows I would be tempted to keep them as boggo as possible if you are planning to do a lot of non-competetive track work. Race engines are tempramental and due to extreme high revvage, will be put under much more stress on a series of trackdays then on doing a few sprints where it's all over in a couple of minutes for about 5 runs. On a track day you'll more than likely will be out for 20mins at a time at very high revs for around 6 or more sessions. Much harder on a car than most forms of racing (endurance racing not included).
Therefore I'm a big proponent of using boggo, disposable engines. This is exactly what we've got in the Snotmobile. Learning from the PPE we bought a XE powered car that is boggo other than being on 45's and having strengthened rod bolts (sensible as the boggo ones are made of chocolate). This way if we pop it it will only cost us around £750 and we're away again on another engine. Hopefully it wont come to that as the engine isn't that stressed (rev limit set at 7000rpm, rod bolts allow revvage to 7750rpm. The power in this trim tails off at 6800ish anyhow) and as we're not racing it there is no need to bang it off the limiter all the time. But if it does happen we've got it covered.
errm, clear as mud then.
Right guys, it sounds like you have had exactly the same thoughts as me some 6 months ago: But on recent investigation, my pricing to date has come out as such:
Zetec - <£250 for a 60,000 mile Escort 1800 (130 spec) engine.
Gearbox - The ford lump will mount straight to a Ford gearbox.
Carbs/Exhaust - The same side as a crossflow, pintos are opposite.
Black box - I have a contact who can do this for £280, this includes wiring loom, ECU, throttle sensor.
Inlet manifold - £90
Clutch - Standard 1800 Mondeo - Quinton Hazel - £50
Spigot bearing - £8
Alternator - Use the crosflow one and have brackets made.
Sump - You can modify the Escort Zetec one yourself, if funds are available buy a Dunnel item - circa £200 (I would have the escort one modified)
Starter motor - Sierra 1800 CVH item - £30 from scrappers.
Manifold - Powerspeed - £130
So, as you can see you can get an easy 155hp into a light weight car for way under a grand. Admittedly if you want to get into dry sumping, etc then the cost will mount up. Bu for tooling around, fast road or even track days, this isn't necessary. But if you have the tank, lines, etc a new pump is not going to cost the earth??
I hope this helps, if anyone wants a chat contact me off list!?!
Zetec - <£250 for a 60,000 mile Escort 1800 (130 spec) engine.
Gearbox - The ford lump will mount straight to a Ford gearbox.
Carbs/Exhaust - The same side as a crossflow, pintos are opposite.
Black box - I have a contact who can do this for £280, this includes wiring loom, ECU, throttle sensor.
Inlet manifold - £90
Clutch - Standard 1800 Mondeo - Quinton Hazel - £50
Spigot bearing - £8
Alternator - Use the crosflow one and have brackets made.
Sump - You can modify the Escort Zetec one yourself, if funds are available buy a Dunnel item - circa £200 (I would have the escort one modified)
Starter motor - Sierra 1800 CVH item - £30 from scrappers.
Manifold - Powerspeed - £130
So, as you can see you can get an easy 155hp into a light weight car for way under a grand. Admittedly if you want to get into dry sumping, etc then the cost will mount up. Bu for tooling around, fast road or even track days, this isn't necessary. But if you have the tank, lines, etc a new pump is not going to cost the earth??
I hope this helps, if anyone wants a chat contact me off list!?!
Petrol Head,
I didn't claim a Zetec was lighter than an X/flow or that the exhaust was the same. The exhaust manifold will definately not fit, a new one will need to be sourced, hence I quoted a typical price for a manifold!
Re Weights, I believe a Zetec weighs about 6 kilos more than an X/flow, not sure if that is wet or dry though.
Sorry, if there was any confusion.
Mark
I didn't claim a Zetec was lighter than an X/flow or that the exhaust was the same. The exhaust manifold will definately not fit, a new one will need to be sourced, hence I quoted a typical price for a manifold!
Re Weights, I believe a Zetec weighs about 6 kilos more than an X/flow, not sure if that is wet or dry though.
Sorry, if there was any confusion.
Mark
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