WESTFIELD OR CATERHAM
Discussion
Hi guys, thinking about a Catherham fireblade or a Westfield Megablade. Which is better, i'm more concerned about build quality and handling. I understand the caterham has dedion suspension while the westie has independent, which is more controllable and less likely to bite, or are they both the same
Cheers
Mike
Cheers
Mike
Mike, thats a tough one. I would say if the budget was not an obstacle then go with the Caterham. They've been doing sevens for a long time. The build quality is better but not by a huge margin.
Still, you'll get plenty of Westie fans stand up and support their cars too!
One thing to remember is that Westfield will build and support a Megerblade, if I recall Caterham sub-contract thier BEC's and are not pushing them as hard as they once were. Of course I may be talking bollox.
Try asking that question in any of the sevens chat rooms, you may get a better idea of which way to go.
Paul
Still, you'll get plenty of Westie fans stand up and support their cars too!
One thing to remember is that Westfield will build and support a Megerblade, if I recall Caterham sub-contract thier BEC's and are not pushing them as hard as they once were. Of course I may be talking bollox.
Try asking that question in any of the sevens chat rooms, you may get a better idea of which way to go.
Paul
I'd say Westfield Megablade or megabusa but then I'm biased 
At the moment IIRC Westfield are leading the market and apparently the caterham customer service leaves alot to be desired. The guys at westfield have nothing but time for you.
IMHO go for westfield, give them a ring and try and arrange a test drive, if you can, do the same with the cateringvans.
Have a look at the WSCC boardroom and speak to some BEC owners and also try a search to see what has previously come up.
Everything caterham wise seems to be quite pricey, with westfield you seem to get more punch for your pound.
Really only you can be the judge of what you want, but IMO go down the westfield route. If you are going to do test drives of both cars, do the cateringvans first.
Good luck
>> Edited by Graham.J on Saturday 7th December 15:14
At the moment IIRC Westfield are leading the market and apparently the caterham customer service leaves alot to be desired. The guys at westfield have nothing but time for you.
IMHO go for westfield, give them a ring and try and arrange a test drive, if you can, do the same with the cateringvans.
Have a look at the WSCC boardroom and speak to some BEC owners and also try a search to see what has previously come up.
Everything caterham wise seems to be quite pricey, with westfield you seem to get more punch for your pound.
Really only you can be the judge of what you want, but IMO go down the westfield route. If you are going to do test drives of both cars, do the cateringvans first.
Good luck
>> Edited by Graham.J on Saturday 7th December 15:14
To drive they are 'different' (this is Caterhams vs Westfields in general as I have driven CAC's of both types and only passengered in a Westie BEC). Difficult to put into words but the DeDion Caterhams tend to feel more pointy than the IRS Westfields. IMO they also goon better. Live axle cars of both varieties are very similar. So dynamically I'd say that Caterhams have the edge, albeit a very fine one as they are very similar if truth be told.
The next consideration has to be your personal dimensions. The Westies are more accomodating to the *ahem* larger person. However if you're lanky or small this is not an issue.
As the engine you are considering is the same for both cars ('blade, good call IMO as it works as a cheap disposable engine that doesn't need dry sumping. So should you nuke it, you just drop a new engine in there for less than a grand and effectively get a new gearbox for free) so that doesn't really come into it.
Which leaves you with cost, resale, percieved heritage, build and general looks. Basically the Caterham will cost a lot more but will hold it's value better. This seems to even things out. Caterham have the whole official Lotus 7 links thing that might be important for you. However if it's just a track car then what does it matter? Build wise Westfield are now pretty much on a par with Caterham so it comes down to really whether you like the look of one over the other...
Finally, there are other alternatives to the Caterfield/Westfield route. Sylva and MK to name but two that do very tasty BEC's. I personally like the Sylva Phoenix (now distributed by Stuart Taylor Motorsport). As light as they come but with an aerodynamic body and inboard front suspension. There is also the Striker (distributed by RAW engineering now) that is the 7 stylie version of the same car.
My best bit of advise would be to get down to a few trackdays and get some rides around in the various options. Test drive the ones you like best and make your own mind up. It's all very subjective but all the cars I've mentioned above make cracking track weapons and none of them are duffers. Whatever you choose; enjoy!
The next consideration has to be your personal dimensions. The Westies are more accomodating to the *ahem* larger person. However if you're lanky or small this is not an issue.
As the engine you are considering is the same for both cars ('blade, good call IMO as it works as a cheap disposable engine that doesn't need dry sumping. So should you nuke it, you just drop a new engine in there for less than a grand and effectively get a new gearbox for free) so that doesn't really come into it.
Which leaves you with cost, resale, percieved heritage, build and general looks. Basically the Caterham will cost a lot more but will hold it's value better. This seems to even things out. Caterham have the whole official Lotus 7 links thing that might be important for you. However if it's just a track car then what does it matter? Build wise Westfield are now pretty much on a par with Caterham so it comes down to really whether you like the look of one over the other...
Finally, there are other alternatives to the Caterfield/Westfield route. Sylva and MK to name but two that do very tasty BEC's. I personally like the Sylva Phoenix (now distributed by Stuart Taylor Motorsport). As light as they come but with an aerodynamic body and inboard front suspension. There is also the Striker (distributed by RAW engineering now) that is the 7 stylie version of the same car.
My best bit of advise would be to get down to a few trackdays and get some rides around in the various options. Test drive the ones you like best and make your own mind up. It's all very subjective but all the cars I've mentioned above make cracking track weapons and none of them are duffers. Whatever you choose; enjoy!
To drive they are 'different' (this is Caterhams vs Westfields in general as I have driven CAC's of both types and only passengered in a Westie BEC). Difficult to put into words but the DeDion Caterhams tend to feel more pointy than the IRS Westfields. IMO they also goon better.
I agree with Juansolo!
Owning a Caterham DeDion a Westfield SEI and a Fisher Fury (live axle). I can say that Caterham ist the most pointy. But it is also the most expensive one.
Without thinking about the price it would be:
1) Caterham
2) Fisher
3) Westfield
If you consider the price also it would be:
1) Fisher
2) Caterham
3) Westfield
If I were you, I would not consider any seven style car with a motor bike engine. Having spoken to a westfeild specialist, he told me they are nothing but trouble with bike engines. I would go for a Dax.
Now if you are just going for a blatt on a rce track on the odd occasion, then there may be a case for them, but if you want a reliable sports car Don't get one with a bike inside!
gadgit.
Now if you are just going for a blatt on a rce track on the odd occasion, then there may be a case for them, but if you want a reliable sports car Don't get one with a bike inside!
gadgit.
Was there any justfication Gadget, certainly the chap I spoke to from Dax at Donnington said that like all new developments the first few had teething trouble but since then no problems.
The bike engines themselves are extremely reliable, Honda, Suzuki both are renown for it. The rest of the car is the same as a standard. Which part is supposedly unreliable?
The bike engines themselves are extremely reliable, Honda, Suzuki both are renown for it. The rest of the car is the same as a standard. Which part is supposedly unreliable?
A bit more advise and all this is IMO BTW before anybody starts. Think long and hard about the spec and try and get what you want from the off. Generally these things cost a lot more to change later than you'd think.
Firstly, is it going to be used a lot on the road? If not I'd junk the screen, wipers, washers and heater from the start and fit the Westie aeroscreen. It'll save a lot of weight and hassle. Any road journeys you do undertake, wear a helmet. Get a tonneau cover though to stop it filling with water when it's stood.
Make sure you get an LSD. As Caterfields are very light at the back you tend to spin off a lot of power on the exit of corners. An LSD will stop this happening.
Run 13x6" wheels (unless you plan on sprinting as there is more of a choice in legal rubber in 15"). KN Minators are a good, light and cheap wheel at £60 a corner. You do not need anything wider and big wheels increase unsprung weight and shag the handling. Tyres depends on what you want. Sticking with the ultra-light ethos I'd fit Caterham compound Avon ACB10. You'll have to set your suspension geometry specifically to get the best out of them as they're crossplys and they're not very clever in the wet. But they are very sticky, incredibly light and the most amazingly progressive tyre I've ever known.
Fit a quick rack with lock stops.
As you're building an ultra-light BEC it makes sense to spend a little extra on ally bits. Alloy uprights and alloy hubs should be on your shopping list. Alloy shocks will help also. Nitrons are the daddy but are VERY expensive. AVO's alloy Pro Race range come a close second (go for rose jointed ones if you can).
Brakes: Westfield 4-pots are pretty good. Otherwise you've got Bremsport, Wilwood, Cat, etc. You may want to spec an uprated AP master cylinder (not cheap I'm afraid) and a brake proportioning valve for the rear line unless Westfield have sorted the issue with the rear brakes locking before the fronts. You could, as with everything on these cars go to town and fit dual circuit brakes and AP F2 calipers but you really are only stopping 400kg's and unless you're going racing, it's overkill (not to mention frighteningly expensive).
Solid disks all round. Get a set of machined ones from Fluke Motorsport if you can. You do not need vented disks on a car that is this light and has open front wheels. The fronts will struggle to get hot as it is.
Saftey kit: Fit an RAC roll bar. This is non-negotiable. You only have one head. Westfield padded race seats are pretty good and supportive. Fit good quality harnessess.
Get the wrap around stone guards. The rear arches take a pelting from stones otherwise.
If you can live without a reverse gear I would. Otherwise fit an electric one.
Personally I wouldn't bother with a Carbon Fibre nose and front arches. The nose will take a beating on track and it's easy to rip arches of with cones. Keep em cheap and replaceable. If however Westfield ever decide to offer pre-preg carbon fibre bodywork all round then it could be a serious, albeit expensive, weight saving option. As it stands, I wouldn't bother. The money is better spent removing unsprung weight.
That's all I can think of right now. The rest is all tarty stuff like steering wheels (Momo 26 or 27D are the ones I'd look at). Making it quick release isn't really necessary but is a nice security feature. I'd also fit something along the lines of a Stack dash. But as I said, it's tarty stuff and very much down to personal taste.
Good luck and keep us informed as to what you go for.
PS> Lilac is a VERY BAD COLOUR. I just thought I'd mention that one... (the new light blue is quite nice).
>> Edited by juansolo on Sunday 15th December 14:43
>> Edited by juansolo on Sunday 15th December 14:47
Firstly, is it going to be used a lot on the road? If not I'd junk the screen, wipers, washers and heater from the start and fit the Westie aeroscreen. It'll save a lot of weight and hassle. Any road journeys you do undertake, wear a helmet. Get a tonneau cover though to stop it filling with water when it's stood.
Make sure you get an LSD. As Caterfields are very light at the back you tend to spin off a lot of power on the exit of corners. An LSD will stop this happening.
Run 13x6" wheels (unless you plan on sprinting as there is more of a choice in legal rubber in 15"). KN Minators are a good, light and cheap wheel at £60 a corner. You do not need anything wider and big wheels increase unsprung weight and shag the handling. Tyres depends on what you want. Sticking with the ultra-light ethos I'd fit Caterham compound Avon ACB10. You'll have to set your suspension geometry specifically to get the best out of them as they're crossplys and they're not very clever in the wet. But they are very sticky, incredibly light and the most amazingly progressive tyre I've ever known.
Fit a quick rack with lock stops.
As you're building an ultra-light BEC it makes sense to spend a little extra on ally bits. Alloy uprights and alloy hubs should be on your shopping list. Alloy shocks will help also. Nitrons are the daddy but are VERY expensive. AVO's alloy Pro Race range come a close second (go for rose jointed ones if you can).
Brakes: Westfield 4-pots are pretty good. Otherwise you've got Bremsport, Wilwood, Cat, etc. You may want to spec an uprated AP master cylinder (not cheap I'm afraid) and a brake proportioning valve for the rear line unless Westfield have sorted the issue with the rear brakes locking before the fronts. You could, as with everything on these cars go to town and fit dual circuit brakes and AP F2 calipers but you really are only stopping 400kg's and unless you're going racing, it's overkill (not to mention frighteningly expensive).
Solid disks all round. Get a set of machined ones from Fluke Motorsport if you can. You do not need vented disks on a car that is this light and has open front wheels. The fronts will struggle to get hot as it is.
Saftey kit: Fit an RAC roll bar. This is non-negotiable. You only have one head. Westfield padded race seats are pretty good and supportive. Fit good quality harnessess.
Get the wrap around stone guards. The rear arches take a pelting from stones otherwise.
If you can live without a reverse gear I would. Otherwise fit an electric one.
Personally I wouldn't bother with a Carbon Fibre nose and front arches. The nose will take a beating on track and it's easy to rip arches of with cones. Keep em cheap and replaceable. If however Westfield ever decide to offer pre-preg carbon fibre bodywork all round then it could be a serious, albeit expensive, weight saving option. As it stands, I wouldn't bother. The money is better spent removing unsprung weight.
That's all I can think of right now. The rest is all tarty stuff like steering wheels (Momo 26 or 27D are the ones I'd look at). Making it quick release isn't really necessary but is a nice security feature. I'd also fit something along the lines of a Stack dash. But as I said, it's tarty stuff and very much down to personal taste.
Good luck and keep us informed as to what you go for.
PS> Lilac is a VERY BAD COLOUR. I just thought I'd mention that one... (the new light blue is quite nice).
>> Edited by juansolo on Sunday 15th December 14:43
>> Edited by juansolo on Sunday 15th December 14:47
Mean looking car Juansolo, cheers for the reply.
What's your advice on the windscreen thing? I would be wearing a helmet anyway, so what's the point of fitting a windscreen over the aeroscreen, it's only more cost for me. I will be using the car a lot on the road, so i'll just wrap up warm.
Won't be buying the car to probably spring next year.
Are the aluminium bits essential? I want to keep cost down as much as possible. I was thinking of chrome yellow, aeroscreen, carbon cycle wings and stone guards, carbon kit ,13 inch minators' definately LSD RAC roll bar and maybe stack dash. Whats the deal with the seats, do they come standard as just plastic, what are the options and how expensive are they?
Cheers
Mike
What's your advice on the windscreen thing? I would be wearing a helmet anyway, so what's the point of fitting a windscreen over the aeroscreen, it's only more cost for me. I will be using the car a lot on the road, so i'll just wrap up warm.
Won't be buying the car to probably spring next year.
Are the aluminium bits essential? I want to keep cost down as much as possible. I was thinking of chrome yellow, aeroscreen, carbon cycle wings and stone guards, carbon kit ,13 inch minators' definately LSD RAC roll bar and maybe stack dash. Whats the deal with the seats, do they come standard as just plastic, what are the options and how expensive are they?
Cheers
Mike
The deal with the windscreen is that if you want to drive it a lot on the road it makes life more plesant but you must also have the sidescreens with it. To get it through SVA you have to have wipers, washers and a means of demisting it (heater). Though bizarrely for MOT you don't need the heater... All of which adds uneccessary weight and complication (wiring, switches, plumbing, etc) to what is in essense an, as light as can be, track toy. Also the windscreen does knock quite a bit off the top end of the car as it acts like an air brake.
However you *may* need the screen if you plan to do sprints and hillclimbs. You'd need to check the regs for whichever series you plan to compete in (Westfield Speed Series for example). Personally I'd take the aeroscreen every time even though mine hasn't as I have complications in fitting one to mine.
The aeroscreen is strongly recommended as it directs airflow around you. Not completely mind so make sure you have a good fitting helmet as you still get a fair amount of buffeting.
The recommendations for the alloy bits is because savings in unsprung weight make dramatic improvements to a cars handling. This is why it's better to spend the money here shedding weight from the uprights, hubs, shocks, brakes, wheels and tyres than anywhere else on the car. Carbon IMO doesn't offer enough weight saving per £ than say a pair of alloy hubs. The only way to make carbon pay is to use the very expensive pre-preg carbon and to replace all the GRP. To do that you're probably talking in the region of £6k + at least (and Westfield will not allow you to do that).
Alloy bits don't have to be massively expensive if you keep it sensible. Nitron shocks for example are knocking on the door of £800 a set. Now they are the best but are they really worth twice the price of AVO alloy pro-race shocks? You just need to be choosy in what you go for. Like alloy bells and brake disks are a hell of a lot of money but for about £150 you can get a set of Fluke Motorsport machined disks that will shave of the majority of the weight for far less cash.
Personally I look at it this way, you're building a BEC, it's going to be a very light car. Bolting things to it that are uneccesarily heavy is not a good idea. If it was a big Vauxhall XE engined car for example then fair enough you can get away with it, but the performance of this car comes mainly from its weight. Where the Vx can rely on reserve of torque to pull it along, a BEC cannot (Hayabusa's excepted). A few Kg's here and there may not seem like much but it all adds up.
As for the seats. Westfield seats come padded and non-padded. Padded are a bit more comfy on longer journeys. They're about £500 a pair I think. Personally I'd fit Caterham Tillets which are slightly more cash (£50 more) but MUCH better chairs and worth it IMO. If you're having it built by Westfield, they may have a problem with this...
>> Edited by juansolo on Sunday 15th December 19:50
However you *may* need the screen if you plan to do sprints and hillclimbs. You'd need to check the regs for whichever series you plan to compete in (Westfield Speed Series for example). Personally I'd take the aeroscreen every time even though mine hasn't as I have complications in fitting one to mine.
The aeroscreen is strongly recommended as it directs airflow around you. Not completely mind so make sure you have a good fitting helmet as you still get a fair amount of buffeting.
The recommendations for the alloy bits is because savings in unsprung weight make dramatic improvements to a cars handling. This is why it's better to spend the money here shedding weight from the uprights, hubs, shocks, brakes, wheels and tyres than anywhere else on the car. Carbon IMO doesn't offer enough weight saving per £ than say a pair of alloy hubs. The only way to make carbon pay is to use the very expensive pre-preg carbon and to replace all the GRP. To do that you're probably talking in the region of £6k + at least (and Westfield will not allow you to do that).
Alloy bits don't have to be massively expensive if you keep it sensible. Nitron shocks for example are knocking on the door of £800 a set. Now they are the best but are they really worth twice the price of AVO alloy pro-race shocks? You just need to be choosy in what you go for. Like alloy bells and brake disks are a hell of a lot of money but for about £150 you can get a set of Fluke Motorsport machined disks that will shave of the majority of the weight for far less cash.
Personally I look at it this way, you're building a BEC, it's going to be a very light car. Bolting things to it that are uneccesarily heavy is not a good idea. If it was a big Vauxhall XE engined car for example then fair enough you can get away with it, but the performance of this car comes mainly from its weight. Where the Vx can rely on reserve of torque to pull it along, a BEC cannot (Hayabusa's excepted). A few Kg's here and there may not seem like much but it all adds up.
As for the seats. Westfield seats come padded and non-padded. Padded are a bit more comfy on longer journeys. They're about £500 a pair I think. Personally I'd fit Caterham Tillets which are slightly more cash (£50 more) but MUCH better chairs and worth it IMO. If you're having it built by Westfield, they may have a problem with this...
>> Edited by juansolo on Sunday 15th December 19:50
John,
Did you contact Tim Duncan about his aeroscreens?
If not, I've ordered one to see if I can retrofit it to my SE.
If your interested in his ones I'll let you know how I get on with mine.
Mike, regarding what class you'd be in with the WSCC Speed Series, you'd be in Class E (Road going kit cars with motorcycle engines up to 1150cc and Modified Road Going Kit cars with car derived engines up to 1800cc (same as me)) if you had a windscreen or not so that doesn't really matter.
>> Edited by Graham.J on Sunday 15th December 20:47
Did you contact Tim Duncan about his aeroscreens?
If not, I've ordered one to see if I can retrofit it to my SE.
If your interested in his ones I'll let you know how I get on with mine.
Mike, regarding what class you'd be in with the WSCC Speed Series, you'd be in Class E (Road going kit cars with motorcycle engines up to 1150cc and Modified Road Going Kit cars with car derived engines up to 1800cc (same as me)) if you had a windscreen or not so that doesn't really matter.
>> Edited by Graham.J on Sunday 15th December 20:47
Didn't in the end as I'd still need a new scuttle from Westfield. In the end I decided I can't be arsed. Just gonna leave the PPE as is now and use it at least for 2003. I *might* be selling it after that though as I fancy building one from scratch to my spec. All up in the air at the moment and it depends on a lot of things* (mainly financial and practical).
*like will Westfield/Sylva supply the GRP in PPE Purple?
*like will Westfield/Sylva supply the GRP in PPE Purple?
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