Which universal fuel pump for affordability and reliability
Discussion
I'm very slowly building my kit car and my cheap £30 inline Osias fuel pump from eBay has just packed in.
It's probably only had 20 minutes of use so don't understand why its dead.
It jumps into life for a few seconds with a tap, then stops again.
So looking for recommendations for a affordable and relaible pump.
Ideally 12mm inlet and 8mm outlet so my hoses can stay as is.
Suitable for 250hp mark.
8bar bar max pressure.
It's probably only had 20 minutes of use so don't understand why its dead.
It jumps into life for a few seconds with a tap, then stops again.
So looking for recommendations for a affordable and relaible pump.
Ideally 12mm inlet and 8mm outlet so my hoses can stay as is.
Suitable for 250hp mark.
8bar bar max pressure.
If you actually need 8 bar then Bosch 044 Motorsport is probably the easiest option (although technically half a bar short but they'll do 8 bar) and a cheaper choice than the many tuner market things out there. However are you actually running 8 bar delivery pressure to the injectors?
Actually I'm not running 8 bar.
The regulator limits the fuel pressure to just 3.5 bar.
Only reason I said 8 bar is that's my understanding of what the car that the engine came out of (BMW E39 528) uses as a fuel pump pressure (from memory) so wanted to mimic it as closely as possible.
However, just checking the E39 in tank pumps that they use they seem to quote 50psi operating pressures, so not sure where I got the 8 bar from now. Hmmmm.
The system works using a return on the fuel rail, keeping the rail at a constant 3.5 bar. I assume I want the pump to deliver more than this? Question is, how much more (if any).
The regulator limits the fuel pressure to just 3.5 bar.
Only reason I said 8 bar is that's my understanding of what the car that the engine came out of (BMW E39 528) uses as a fuel pump pressure (from memory) so wanted to mimic it as closely as possible.
However, just checking the E39 in tank pumps that they use they seem to quote 50psi operating pressures, so not sure where I got the 8 bar from now. Hmmmm.
The system works using a return on the fuel rail, keeping the rail at a constant 3.5 bar. I assume I want the pump to deliver more than this? Question is, how much more (if any).
I'm tempted by this Sytec Pump
3 years warranty (if that's worth anything).
The 044 Bosch is a little pricey.
Any other suggestions?
3 years warranty (if that's worth anything).
The 044 Bosch is a little pricey.
Any other suggestions?
montyjohn said:
Actually I'm not running 8 bar.
The regulator limits the fuel pressure to just 3.5 bar.
Only reason I said 8 bar is that's my understanding of what the car that the engine came out of (BMW E39 528) uses as a fuel pump pressure (from memory) so wanted to mimic it as closely as possible.
However, just checking the E39 in tank pumps that they use they seem to quote 50psi operating pressures, so not sure where I got the 8 bar from now. Hmmmm.
The system works using a return on the fuel rail, keeping the rail at a constant 3.5 bar. I assume I want the pump to deliver more than this? Question is, how much more (if any).
You want a Bosch 069, Bosch PN 0580464069. The regulator limits the fuel pressure to just 3.5 bar.
Only reason I said 8 bar is that's my understanding of what the car that the engine came out of (BMW E39 528) uses as a fuel pump pressure (from memory) so wanted to mimic it as closely as possible.
However, just checking the E39 in tank pumps that they use they seem to quote 50psi operating pressures, so not sure where I got the 8 bar from now. Hmmmm.
The system works using a return on the fuel rail, keeping the rail at a constant 3.5 bar. I assume I want the pump to deliver more than this? Question is, how much more (if any).
It's an OEM validated pump with a push on feed and comes with a none return in the pressure side with an M12/1.5 thread. Use a banjo to push on the pressure side to adapt to your push on feed. It will do circa 100L/hr at 4bar and will pull about 7.5amps flat out. Well matched to the power the engine will make and you won't just be circulating fuel through the rail for the sake of it and pulling more amps than necessary.
You should be able to find a genuine one for sub £100, don't buy a copy/knock off or it will fail again. If you are mounting in tank make sure it has a pre pump sock on the bottom of it and ensure the post pump fuel filter will flow sufficent to avoid working the pump overly hard.
poppopbangbang said:
You want a Bosch 069, Bosch PN 0580464069.
It's an OEM validated pump with a push on feed and comes with a none return in the pressure side with an M12/1.5 thread. Use a banjo to push on the pressure side to adapt to your push on feed. It will do circa 100L/hr at 4bar and will pull about 7.5amps flat out. Well matched to the power the engine will make and you won't just be circulating fuel through the rail for the sake of it and pulling more amps than necessary.
You should be able to find a genuine one for sub £100, don't buy a copy/knock off or it will fail again. If you are mounting in tank make sure it has a pre pump sock on the bottom of it and ensure the post pump fuel filter will flow sufficent to avoid working the pump overly hard.
Thanks for all that really good information there.It's an OEM validated pump with a push on feed and comes with a none return in the pressure side with an M12/1.5 thread. Use a banjo to push on the pressure side to adapt to your push on feed. It will do circa 100L/hr at 4bar and will pull about 7.5amps flat out. Well matched to the power the engine will make and you won't just be circulating fuel through the rail for the sake of it and pulling more amps than necessary.
You should be able to find a genuine one for sub £100, don't buy a copy/knock off or it will fail again. If you are mounting in tank make sure it has a pre pump sock on the bottom of it and ensure the post pump fuel filter will flow sufficent to avoid working the pump overly hard.
Found this pump on eBay: Bosch Electric Fuel Pump 0580-464-069
Cheapest I've found at £65. It seems too cheap, as they are going for typically £120 online, but the seller carpartsinmotion
I believe are trustworthy?!? I messaged them and they confirmed it was genuine so fingers crossed.
I'm keen to understand if there's anything on my setup that may have killed my old pump early. I'm still building the car, and I've only run the pump a hand full of times to test the engine, minutes at a time. Here's a pic.
I don't have a pre-filter. Should I fit a course pre filter to protect the pump?
There's this filter, 12mm Sytec Filter but at 10-20 microns is probably a bit fine. I don't want to cause cavitation.
It's gravity fed, so the pump doesn't have to suck hard. I just pulled the inlet off, and opened the valve, and filled my container very very quickly. There were a couple of small specs in the fuel, but I assume the built in pre filters can deal with this. Anyway, inlet restriction does not appear to be the issue.
I probably need a better post filter, I'm guessing 5-10 microns is closer to where I want to be, but for testing it should be fine.
Might also remove the non return valve as the 069 has one built in. I only added it as my old pump lost pressure after it was switched off for a couple of minutes.
Initially, the old pump sounded fine. At the time I was running it from a fuel can. Fast forward 6 months, then I added the proper tank, it made a funny noise when running, and then just died.
It may have just been a dodgy pump, but if you or anyone else can see anything obviously wrong with my setup, grateful to hear from you.
Thanks
Edited by montyjohn on Monday 10th January 10:00
Edited by montyjohn on Monday 10th January 12:42
Edited by montyjohn on Monday 10th January 12:47
This is probably similar to what I'd expect for an inline pre-filter.
UNIVERSAL IN LINE INLINE FUEL OIL FILTER -100 MICRON
What's the consensus if a 100 micron is free flowing enough?
UNIVERSAL IN LINE INLINE FUEL OIL FILTER -100 MICRON
What's the consensus if a 100 micron is free flowing enough?
montyjohn said:
Thanks for all that really good information there.
Found this pump on eBay: Bosch Electric Fuel Pump 0580-464-069
Cheapest I've found at £65. It seems too cheap, as they are going for typically £120 online, but the seller carpartsinmotion
I believe are trustworthy?!? I messaged them and they confirmed it was genuine so fingers crossed.
Sorry I can't comment on the ebay crowd of suppliers etc. as I've never really used them but whilst the Chinese are busy faking 044's right, left and centre I can't see them bothering with a pump which is essentially an old Porsche 944 / Volvo Turbo unit Found this pump on eBay: Bosch Electric Fuel Pump 0580-464-069
Cheapest I've found at £65. It seems too cheap, as they are going for typically £120 online, but the seller carpartsinmotion
I believe are trustworthy?!? I messaged them and they confirmed it was genuine so fingers crossed.
but who knows!montyjohn said:
I'm keen to understand if there's anything on my setup that may have killed my old pump early. I'm still building the car, and I've only run the pump a hand full of times to test the engine, minutes at a time. Here's a pic.
I don't have a pre-filter. Should I fit a course pre filter to protect the pump?
Yes but pre filters aren't that course, 60 - 80 micros generally, but very thin. They are designed to block particle ingress into the pump and release it when the fuel flow stops so it falls back to the tank/is washed off by fuel movement. It takes a huge amount of sI don't have a pre-filter. Should I fit a course pre filter to protect the pump?
te in the tank to properly block a pre filter. This is why on modern vehicles they likely don't have an upstream filter and rely entirely on the in tank pre filter. It also removes fuel filters from the service interval as a result of these, plastic/composite tanks and far cleaner fuel from the pump than most people realise/give credit for. These are all viable pre filters : https://www.protecfuelpumps.com/product-category/f...montyjohn said:
It's gravity fed, so the pump doesn't have to suck hard. I just pulled the inlet off, and opened the valve, and filled my container very very quickly. There were a couple of small specs in the fuel, but I assume the built in pre filters can deal with this. Anyway, inlet restriction does not appear to be the issue.
The stuff you can see is the stuff which hasn't gone through the pump and given it was fine from a clean can of fuel... there's a fair chance it died from FOD. Generally cheapy pumps aren't that tolerant due to lower quality bits inside. There should be a very small prefilter down in the inlet of the pump but these aren't really to be relied on and are a last chance more than anything else.montyjohn said:
I probably need a better post filter, I'm guessing 5-10 microns is closer to where I want to be, but for testing it should be fine.
Might also remove the non return valve as the 069 has one built in. I only added it as my old pump lost pressure after it was switched off for a couple of minutes.
Initially, the old pump sounded fine. At the time I was running it from a fuel can. Fast forward 6 months, then I added the proper tank, it made a funny noise when running, and then just died.
It may have just been a dodgy pump, but if you or anyone else can see anything obviously wrong with my setup, grateful to hear from you.
Thanks
Pre filters are better than post filters although pumps are cheaper than injectors. You don't need a none return valve at all, as soon as the ignition is switched on the ECU should prime the pump and within 60 seconds or so of this prime the pump will deliver fuel to rail within a very brief period - it might crank over twice more without than with but that's it. It's not unusual in a single Bosch pump setup to remove the none return as they'll support a bit more power without it due to the remove of the restriction post pump. Might also remove the non return valve as the 069 has one built in. I only added it as my old pump lost pressure after it was switched off for a couple of minutes.
Initially, the old pump sounded fine. At the time I was running it from a fuel can. Fast forward 6 months, then I added the proper tank, it made a funny noise when running, and then just died.
It may have just been a dodgy pump, but if you or anyone else can see anything obviously wrong with my setup, grateful to hear from you.
Thanks
Gravity feed is fine but you should have something to deal with the movement of fuel in the tank to avoid the pump running dry/engine fuel starvation. Fuel moves A LOT in a tank and you'll be amazed how full the tank can be and the engine still suffer from fuel starvation. Really you want a swirl pot between the tank and pump that can be gravity fed, then mount the pump inside the swirl pot with a sock filter and plumb the rail return to the top of the swirl pot.
One final thing any fuel system should have the minimum amount of joints possible in it as each joint/clip/t-piece etc. is a failure point. Definitely ditch the ball valves, inline non return etc. etc. and on the pressure side you really want a single piece of hose to the rail and a single piece back as even at 3.5bar pin holes spray fuel really well. If you can put the whole thing on AN's or an OEM solution (like o-ring sealed push fits) then it is preferable as it reduces the failure risk significantly..... but as with all things cars it's a cost/benefit consideration.
When looking for a Bosch 044 a few years back I ended up down the rabbit hole that is Alibaba. There were suppliers offering "Bosch 044" pumps for about $3 each in quantity. I don't think one needs to be all that sharp to realise these would be utter garbage. Sadly, this is what a large proportion of fuel pumps you buy on ebay end up being - garbage fakes.
Still running an original, '80's vintage 044 pump along with the entire swirl pot/filter assembly from a Mk2 Golf GTi in the Westfield where it feeds the 2l Zetec. Nothing special power wise, just a stock engine, but there's plenty of capacity left in the pump. (I did, of course, clean it all and fit a new filter.....).
Cheap or good, pick one!
Still running an original, '80's vintage 044 pump along with the entire swirl pot/filter assembly from a Mk2 Golf GTi in the Westfield where it feeds the 2l Zetec. Nothing special power wise, just a stock engine, but there's plenty of capacity left in the pump. (I did, of course, clean it all and fit a new filter.....).
Cheap or good, pick one!
poppopbangbang said:
Really you want a swirl pot between the tank and pump that can be gravity fed
Thanks for the info.I think I have a swirl pot inside the tank.
The tank is from a 2000(ish) Mercedes SLK230 (it was about the right size)
Also, it should have a pre filter. Might have to get that thing off, to check it's all in one piece.
I think that's a swirl pot anyway?
Evap system not being used, just have it blanked off.
poppopbangbang said:
One final thing any fuel system should have the minimum amount of joints possible in it as each joint/clip/t-piece etc. is a failure point. Definitely ditch the ball valves, inline non return etc. etc. and on the pressure side you really want a single piece of hose to the rail and a single piece back as even at 3.5bar pin holes spray fuel really well.
Yep, will remove the check valve.I'll leave the ball valve in for now as it's really useful when removing stuff (like the tank) and I'm sure that will still need to happen between now and completion. I can then remove the valve before it goes on the road.
As for the single piece high pressure hose. This should be doable.
The fuel rail has these types of fitting on them, so should be quite easy to make up a single flex line back to the filter, but again, might tick this one off later as have a few more what seem like potential show stoppers to deal with first. I need a list clearly!
I've had a Facet Solid State pump fitted to my Westfield since I built it in 1992. It feeds a 1600 Pinto and has never come across as failing to deliver the required petrol. I would describe the engine as having a fast road setup.
However, one problem I have encountered is that they tend to pack up after about 45K to 50K miles. The pump operates by energising a solenoid that pulls a spring loaded shuttle up the pipe section which pumps the fuel up the fuel pipe. When the shuttle gets to the end of it's travel the circuit is broken and the spring pushes the shuttle back down the pipe section of the pump for the next pumping cycle as the solenoid is re-energised.
The problem is that the shuttle gradually hammers it's way into the end of the shuttle housing which is just the end of the shuttle housing tube that has been tapered to a smaller diameter to retain the shuttle. Eventually you get fuel starvation as the shuttle gets stuck in the groove it has made for itself. You can usually get home by giving the fuel pump a good thwack with the socket wrench or jack handle to free off the shuttle. I have replaced the pump twice over the last 30 years due to this. I haven't changed it for something else as the re-plumbing would be a bit of aggro and my use of the car has dropped off since having children.
For occasional use I would say the Facet Solid State pump is good enough. I have just had my Westfield a long time & done a considerable number of miles in it.
However, one problem I have encountered is that they tend to pack up after about 45K to 50K miles. The pump operates by energising a solenoid that pulls a spring loaded shuttle up the pipe section which pumps the fuel up the fuel pipe. When the shuttle gets to the end of it's travel the circuit is broken and the spring pushes the shuttle back down the pipe section of the pump for the next pumping cycle as the solenoid is re-energised.
The problem is that the shuttle gradually hammers it's way into the end of the shuttle housing which is just the end of the shuttle housing tube that has been tapered to a smaller diameter to retain the shuttle. Eventually you get fuel starvation as the shuttle gets stuck in the groove it has made for itself. You can usually get home by giving the fuel pump a good thwack with the socket wrench or jack handle to free off the shuttle. I have replaced the pump twice over the last 30 years due to this. I haven't changed it for something else as the re-plumbing would be a bit of aggro and my use of the car has dropped off since having children.
For occasional use I would say the Facet Solid State pump is good enough. I have just had my Westfield a long time & done a considerable number of miles in it.
Edited by Tempest_5 on Wednesday 12th January 20:47
Tempest_5 said:
For occasional use I would say the Facet Solid State pump is good enough. I have just had my Westfield a long time & done a considerable number of miles in it.
I would be a lovely reliable solution but it's not going to be adequate for an injection system I'm afraid.My Bosch 069 pump arrived today. Just waiting for the banjo fitting to arrive so I can get it hooked up.
Just as a precaution, I've also decided to drain the tank, run it through a "Mr Funnel" to give the new pump the best chance of having a long life.
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