My Latest Furore
Discussion
Reworked front wing & endplates, rear wing & kinked sides, upper rear body mouldings, new diffuser setup & centre "rainlight" - Oh, & a new livery - my tribute to Lewis, 7 times world champion whether you love him or hate him!
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|https://thumbsnap.com/xwjn9nas[/url][url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/ZfPbtBNq[/url]
[url]|https://thumbsnap.com/xwjn9nas[/url][url]|https://thumbsnap.com/ZfPbtBNq[/url]Interesting you should say that, here's a shot of the car with the previous wheels & tyres! When I was doing the mods I was posting on a FB car builder's site & literally everyone was screaming "put wider wheels on it" Unfortunately without spending absolutely stupid money, (around £5k for a set of wheels & tyres) or going up to 18" wheels it's just not possible to go bigger than what I usually use, which is 17" wheels, 7,5" front & 9" rear, with 225 front & 245 or 255 rear (what's available seems to vary) with 45 front & 45 or 55 rear profile. I happened to get a set of 18" with tyres for sensible money so decided to try them, I think the look from front or rear is probably better, but don't like the side profile at all (they are only 35 profile). The ride is also noticeably harsher, not too surprising really as the original design relied on some sidewall compression to soften it
Real CFD modelling - yeah, right, I work out of a garage from my home, strangely I don't have access to several thousand pounds worth of software, nor the expertise to run it! & my windtunnel is also broken .......
However, CFD for this application is completely irrelevant, people seem to forget that wings do very little at low speeds unless they are enormous - like, as in aircraft! The original front wing blade (which is still there if you look carefully beneath the "vanes") was designed by AGM sportscars & came out of an aerofoil design manual, it has a lift (downforce in this instance) coefficient of around 1, which gives, at 70mph - this is a roadcar remember, downforce of a dazzling 12kgs or thereabouts. the secondary blade is actually a mould taken from a Jordan F1 car secondary rear wing, but hey, what did they know about aerodynamics, it's area is so small that it would barely add anything significant to the above figure, maybe another 15-20% & the vanes on the front wing will only magnify any affect slightly. Both rear wings are developments of the original front wing, but narrower, between them downforce would be a little higher than the front
Even at 120mph you're only talking about 35kgs & at 140 around 49kgs, I don't see me (or anyone else) regularly cornering at 140mph plus!
What is probably far more significant is that the car has a flat floor raked from front up to rear, along with the rear diffuser - I don't have calcs for this, but given the area & how well it's contained at its edges, I'd imagine it probably generates more downforce than all the other wings combined.
The wings are there purely for aesthetics - yes, the car is a significant performer & is seriously quick, but for road use, wings are pretty much irrelevant other than as drag generators or spoilers
At speed the car is 100% stable, I've had it up to around 140 maybe 145mph genuine & accurate, I really don't want or need to go any faster, but it was still giving a substantial push in the back at that point, it's geared for 170 & would make, I believe, around 160, a customer has had over 150 out of one
However, CFD for this application is completely irrelevant, people seem to forget that wings do very little at low speeds unless they are enormous - like, as in aircraft! The original front wing blade (which is still there if you look carefully beneath the "vanes") was designed by AGM sportscars & came out of an aerofoil design manual, it has a lift (downforce in this instance) coefficient of around 1, which gives, at 70mph - this is a roadcar remember, downforce of a dazzling 12kgs or thereabouts. the secondary blade is actually a mould taken from a Jordan F1 car secondary rear wing, but hey, what did they know about aerodynamics, it's area is so small that it would barely add anything significant to the above figure, maybe another 15-20% & the vanes on the front wing will only magnify any affect slightly. Both rear wings are developments of the original front wing, but narrower, between them downforce would be a little higher than the front
Even at 120mph you're only talking about 35kgs & at 140 around 49kgs, I don't see me (or anyone else) regularly cornering at 140mph plus!
What is probably far more significant is that the car has a flat floor raked from front up to rear, along with the rear diffuser - I don't have calcs for this, but given the area & how well it's contained at its edges, I'd imagine it probably generates more downforce than all the other wings combined.
The wings are there purely for aesthetics - yes, the car is a significant performer & is seriously quick, but for road use, wings are pretty much irrelevant other than as drag generators or spoilers
At speed the car is 100% stable, I've had it up to around 140 maybe 145mph genuine & accurate, I really don't want or need to go any faster, but it was still giving a substantial push in the back at that point, it's geared for 170 & would make, I believe, around 160, a customer has had over 150 out of one
Edited by RussBost on Thursday 23 September 11:39
Thanks for the reply.
I asked about CFD as I'd assumed it was a standard kit. Didn't realise some of it was self made.
As for using CFD, given how many motorsport engineers are on PH, nothing would surprise me. I used to have access to CFD at work for example.
I understand how wings work - it was high speed stability I was interested in. Mainly fwd - aft balance and pitch affects under braking... I assumed it was track car as well as being road registered.
Cool looking thing!
I asked about CFD as I'd assumed it was a standard kit. Didn't realise some of it was self made.
As for using CFD, given how many motorsport engineers are on PH, nothing would surprise me. I used to have access to CFD at work for example.
I understand how wings work - it was high speed stability I was interested in. Mainly fwd - aft balance and pitch affects under braking... I assumed it was track car as well as being road registered.
Cool looking thing!
For track you'd probably have it professionally corner weighted and make the wings angle adjustable so you can tweak the balance from testing.
Although In the real world as long as the aero balance isn't catastrophically wrong, it won't make much difference - the car weighs nothing, has good power to weight and plenty of grip due to tyre size so for 99% of people it will out perform pretty much anything out there on a typical track day if you wanted to push it.
Although In the real world as long as the aero balance isn't catastrophically wrong, it won't make much difference - the car weighs nothing, has good power to weight and plenty of grip due to tyre size so for 99% of people it will out perform pretty much anything out there on a typical track day if you wanted to push it.
daytonavrs said:
As this is road legal and not open wheel does that tend to remove restrictions towards single seaters not acceptable for track days ?
Its not open wheel technically. lol. If they wanted to ban it then all 7 replicas have open front wheels, many exo cars etc.
It is a bit of a lame description though as the intent is not to have silly fast single seater race cars mixing it up with fiestas etc for safety reasons.
Psycho Warren said:
daytonavrs said:
As this is road legal and not open wheel does that tend to remove restrictions towards single seaters not acceptable for track days ?
Its not open wheel technically. lol. If they wanted to ban it then all 7 replicas have open front wheels, many exo cars etc.
It is a bit of a lame description though as the intent is not to have silly fast single seater race cars mixing it up with fiestas etc for safety reasons.
Radical and similar are significantly faster than formula ford's and similar.
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
I think it's more to do with the flip risk... Open wheel to open wheel tends lead one tyre to climbing the other which can flip the car.
Radical and similar are significantly faster than formula ford's and similar.
Good point well made thanks for clarifying.Radical and similar are significantly faster than formula ford's and similar.
Psycho Warren said:
Its not open wheel technically. lol.
If they wanted to ban it then all 7 replicas have open front wheels, many exo cars etc.
It is a bit of a lame description though as the intent is not to have silly fast single seater race cars mixing it up with fiestas etc for safety reasons.
I said NOT open wheel btw If they wanted to ban it then all 7 replicas have open front wheels, many exo cars etc.
It is a bit of a lame description though as the intent is not to have silly fast single seater race cars mixing it up with fiestas etc for safety reasons.
The array of different conditions does seem super confusing.
However Trackdayscouk mentions no single seaters specifically which is confusing (!!), but specific tracks must have their own regs.
I will be very limited to the "formula trackdays" myself I think, with no mot whatsoever and no wheel guards.
If just putting the guards on made a difference I would definitely try that though, although wouldn't bother trying to get it road legal.
tBoRED S2upid said:
If that’s road legal I bet it gets some looks when out and about! Does it sound good? What engine does it have?
Put it this way, I can now lipread WTF at around 300 yards! 
This one is indeed a ZZR1400 as Daytonavrs has suggested, it's kinda loud (one of the reasons I've done very little trackday stuff!), 0 - 60 is around 3.5 seconds, so not too sluggish!
Nice that its got the beans to match the looks.
We spoke a few years back as I am doing my own single seater. It has taken me ages to get going due to several false starts where I tried to rely on companies for things I can't do myself. After being let down I am pretty much doing it all myself now.
Its quite funny how many companies seem interested at first then just disappear off the face of the earth when you tell them what you are doing. I guess they file your request in the "nutter" or "dreamer" bin.
So I have had to learn CAD, learn to weld, invest in a 3D printer etc etc.
Still early days but after scanning a model, scaling, cleaning up, converting from mesh to solid etc, I have my bodywork ready to be CNC'd in foam (yep I will be doing that myself....). Its not a perfect model but close enough so that once sanded smooth and resin coated will work for my moulds.
The model, now correctly scaled has been used to draw up the spaceframe chassis (spaceframe instead of carbon monocoque to make IVA and construction easier). Still a bit to finish on the chassis design but will have that done soon. So much more complicated for a novice than you would think. Its quite easy to learn to draw the "shapes" in CAD but the best way is to spend the time doing proper dimensioned sketchs and drawing it in CAD the same way it would be built so that, for the chassis, i can use the model to get a cut list of tubes/box and order it all in pre-cut. Also the tube notches all drawn up so i can easily print a template.
Its taken hundreds of hours of design so far and i just have boxes of bits but finally only a few months from welding up the chassis so finally will have something car shaped.
Some complex parts like the curved front wing I have drawn from scratch to get the shape right and have started 3D printing the wing in bits to make a core for the wing to laminate over. The design is split into loads of bits to fit on the printer bed and have designed alignment holes to slide tube in to stiffen it and align it once printed.
And the first 3D printed wing section:
Only another 14 days of 3D printing to get the whole front wing. LOL.
Everything has been just as hard if not harder than Russ said in our emails but I am determined to get it done! Will start my own thread once I get a bit further done.
We spoke a few years back as I am doing my own single seater. It has taken me ages to get going due to several false starts where I tried to rely on companies for things I can't do myself. After being let down I am pretty much doing it all myself now.
Its quite funny how many companies seem interested at first then just disappear off the face of the earth when you tell them what you are doing. I guess they file your request in the "nutter" or "dreamer" bin.
So I have had to learn CAD, learn to weld, invest in a 3D printer etc etc.
Still early days but after scanning a model, scaling, cleaning up, converting from mesh to solid etc, I have my bodywork ready to be CNC'd in foam (yep I will be doing that myself....). Its not a perfect model but close enough so that once sanded smooth and resin coated will work for my moulds.
The model, now correctly scaled has been used to draw up the spaceframe chassis (spaceframe instead of carbon monocoque to make IVA and construction easier). Still a bit to finish on the chassis design but will have that done soon. So much more complicated for a novice than you would think. Its quite easy to learn to draw the "shapes" in CAD but the best way is to spend the time doing proper dimensioned sketchs and drawing it in CAD the same way it would be built so that, for the chassis, i can use the model to get a cut list of tubes/box and order it all in pre-cut. Also the tube notches all drawn up so i can easily print a template.
Its taken hundreds of hours of design so far and i just have boxes of bits but finally only a few months from welding up the chassis so finally will have something car shaped.
Some complex parts like the curved front wing I have drawn from scratch to get the shape right and have started 3D printing the wing in bits to make a core for the wing to laminate over. The design is split into loads of bits to fit on the printer bed and have designed alignment holes to slide tube in to stiffen it and align it once printed.
And the first 3D printed wing section:
Only another 14 days of 3D printing to get the whole front wing. LOL.
Everything has been just as hard if not harder than Russ said in our emails but I am determined to get it done! Will start my own thread once I get a bit further done.
Wow thats some commitment and level of doing things, also means you could replicate your design over and over much easier
The wing ( formula ford ) I have, simply made up with alloy sheet by someone, probably started on some wood forms spaced out to give the basic shaoe and stretched alloy sheet over those. etc. Riveted down to centre bar.
( it cost me £80 quid on ebay but wasn't quite ready for fit as it didn't fit my nosecone ).
Kind of replicated the idea a little myself, as to fit around the nose wanted to have a wider overlap part rather than cutting the existing one down and then cut my overlap section rather than cutting into existing wing.
Not as future materials as what are doing, but its reasonably light for its size and more old school way of doing things.
Equally I made up a custom size radiator side cowling with pieces of sheet, etc.
That cad work etc is far more modern and another level
The wing ( formula ford ) I have, simply made up with alloy sheet by someone, probably started on some wood forms spaced out to give the basic shaoe and stretched alloy sheet over those. etc. Riveted down to centre bar.
( it cost me £80 quid on ebay but wasn't quite ready for fit as it didn't fit my nosecone ).
Kind of replicated the idea a little myself, as to fit around the nose wanted to have a wider overlap part rather than cutting the existing one down and then cut my overlap section rather than cutting into existing wing.
Not as future materials as what are doing, but its reasonably light for its size and more old school way of doing things.
Equally I made up a custom size radiator side cowling with pieces of sheet, etc.
That cad work etc is far more modern and another level
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