Discussion
There's nothing in law that requires you to have an IVA at all, if you can be bothered to do your research properly.
What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
Gemaeden said:
There's nothing in law that requires you to have an IVA at all, if you can be bothered to do your research properly.
What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
Ooh look we have a freeman of the land PHer. Where's the popcorn?What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
Gemaeden said:
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
Wow, I too would like to be pointed toward this information, it would sure make my project easier to build knowing I can do what the $&£% I want, I am also sure others will agree. 
Gemaeden said:
There's nothing in law that requires you to have an IVA at all, if you can be bothered to do your research properly.
What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
I don't believe you. Please prove me wrong.What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
Paul Drawmer said:
Gemaeden said:
There's nothing in law that requires you to have an IVA at all, if you can be bothered to do your research properly.
What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
I don't believe you. Please prove me wrong.What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
Guidelines are not law, so do not need to be followed.
Nothing to do with Freeman of the land stupidity, just a matter of reading, rather than listening to those with vested interests.
Paul Drawmer said:
Gemaeden said:
There's nothing in law that requires you to have an IVA at all, if you can be bothered to do your research properly.
What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
I don't believe you. Please prove me wrong.What the DVSA do is publish guidelines.
If you choose to accept their authority, then you will need to follow their guidelines.
A radically altered vehicle is one that is completely altered, if you check the dictionary definition of radical.
There is more information that tells you that the DVSA have no jurisdiction over you, if you know where to look.
Guidelines are not law, so do not need to be followed.
Nothing to do with Freeman of the land stupidity, just a matter of reading, rather than listening to those with vested interests.
I'm not a lawyer, no way am I going to be able to read statutes and from that be able to definitively know what's law and what's guideline.
It's a pretty bold statement to make, I hope you agree, hence some considerable scepticism to your opening statement.
Could you expand on what the distinction is / what the law requires regarding self built cars (and importantly, what it does not say) a little further?
It's a pretty bold statement to make, I hope you agree, hence some considerable scepticism to your opening statement.
Could you expand on what the distinction is / what the law requires regarding self built cars (and importantly, what it does not say) a little further?
Gemaeden said:
Read all the statutes pertaining to motor vehicles, not the guidelines. When you're done you will realise what is law and what isn't.
You might wish to take your own advice. I suggest starting with The Road Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2020 (Statutory Instrument 2020 no. 818)
Specifically, Section 21
Section 21 said:
Where a person makes an application... for the issue of a first vehicle licence for a motor vehicle... the licence must not be granted unless:
(a) an appropriate EU certificate of conformity has effect with respect to the vehicle;
(b) an appropriate national small series certificate of conformity has effect with respect to the vehicle;
(c) an appropriate individual approval certificate has effect with respect to the vehicle.
(a) an appropriate EU certificate of conformity has effect with respect to the vehicle;
(b) an appropriate national small series certificate of conformity has effect with respect to the vehicle;
(c) an appropriate individual approval certificate has effect with respect to the vehicle.
Equus said:
Gemaeden said:
Read all the statutes pertaining to motor vehicles, not the guidelines. When you're done you will realise what is law and what isn't.
You might wish to take your own advice. I suggest starting with The Road Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2020 (Statutory Instrument 2020 no. 818)
Specifically, Section 21
Section 21 said:
Where a person makes an application... for the issue of a first vehicle licence for a motor vehicle... the licence must not be granted unless:
(a) an appropriate EU certificate of conformity has effect with respect to the vehicle;
(b) an appropriate national small series certificate of conformity has effect with respect to the vehicle;
(c) an appropriate individual approval certificate has effect with respect to the vehicle.
(a) an appropriate EU certificate of conformity has effect with respect to the vehicle;
(b) an appropriate national small series certificate of conformity has effect with respect to the vehicle;
(c) an appropriate individual approval certificate has effect with respect to the vehicle.
Gemaeden said:
I didn't realise it was being built from all new parts, I remember kit cars as usually having donors. Fair enough if it from all new parts, if not then there doesn't appear to be a statute.
It applies even for vehicles with single donors, where it is considered that a new or radically modified vehicle has been created.Just because the DVLA allows retention of a donor registration (number plate) on a points-score basis does not mean that the resultant vehicle has the same identity as the donor: registrations can be swapped around. It is the VIN and the 11-digit reference number on the V5C that define the vehicle's unique identity. When you apply for registration of a kit car, whether using a single donor or not, it will be assigned a new VIN. If you provide evidence of retention of sufficient donor components, you will be allowed to assign the old registration number to that new VIN (if not, you'll be given either a Q-plate if the parts are of mixed origin, or a new current-year registration if you can prove new parts have been used.. but in all three cases, a new VIN is assigned and the vehicle needs to be first licenced (which in turn requires IVA).
If you want to come across all barrack-room-lawyer, the requirement to IVA even a radically modified vehicle is embodied in Article 34 of Regulation (EU) 2018/858, which is linked to by Articles 2(1) and 21(9) of the Road Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2020.
Equus said:
Gemaeden said:
I didn't realise it was being built from all new parts, I remember kit cars as usually having donors. Fair enough if it from all new parts, if not then there doesn't appear to be a statute.
It applies even for vehicles with single donors, where it is considered that a new or radically modified vehicle has been created.Just because the DVLA allows retention of a donor registration (number plate) on a points-score basis does not mean that the resultant vehicle has the same identity as the donor: registrations can be swapped around. It is the VIN and the 11-digit reference number on the V5C that define the vehicle's unique identity. When you apply for registration of a kit car, whether using a single donor or not, it will be assigned a new VIN. If you provide evidence of retention of sufficient donor components, you will be allowed to assign the old registration number to that new VIN (if not, you'll be given either a Q-plate if the parts are of mixed origin, or a new current-year registration if you can prove new parts have been used.. but in all three cases, a new VIN is assigned and the vehicle needs to be first licenced (which in turn requires IVA).
If you want to come across all barrack-room-lawyer, the requirement to IVA even a radically modified vehicle is embodied in Article 34 of Regulation (EU) 2018/858, which is linked to by Articles 2(1) and 21(9) of the Road Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2020.
Radically altered means completely or fundamentally. If a vehicle still has four wheels, tyres, a steering wheel, seats, a motor and transmission and some parts of the original vehicle it is still fundamentally the same. Others might not view it in such a way, but that would then need to be tested in court.
I doubt the DVSA would like to test the meaning of the word 'radically' in court as it would likely lead to many people realising that they don't legally need an SVA. They prefer the ignorance of people just following their rules, thinking that they are law.
The problem is that as soon as a hole is drilled or a non OE part fitted the vehicle is modified and is therefore no longer Type approved. This is obviously a nonsense.
By using the word radically, people then will ask them what radically means. That puts people under their authority. So you are correct in what the DVSA allow if you put yourself under their authority, but they are just a company or part of a company, that has zero jurisdiction over anyone.
If you don't ask, then it is down to an individuals comprehension of the word. The word may means something different to someone else, but that then needs to be tested in court.
I still see no statutes that compel the OP to get an SVA if he has some second hand part and a chassis plate.
Gemaeden said:
Article 21 (9) refers to a first licence. If the car has already been licenced (even in some other form) this does not apply. In my original post I didn't refer to a totally new vehicle but one that had been altered.
Radically altered means completely or fundamentally. If a vehicle still has four wheels, tyres, a steering wheel, seats, a motor and transmission and some parts of the original vehicle it is still fundamentally the same. Others might not view it in such a way, but that would then need to be tested in court.
I doubt the DVSA would like to test the meaning of the word 'radically' in court as it would likely lead to many people realising that they don't legally need an SVA. They prefer the ignorance of people just following their rules, thinking that they are law.
The problem is that as soon as a hole is drilled or a non OE part fitted the vehicle is modified and is therefore no longer Type approved. This is obviously a nonsense.
By using the word radically, people then will ask them what radically means. That puts people under their authority. So you are correct in what the DVSA allow if you put yourself under their authority, but they are just a company or part of a company, that has zero jurisdiction over anyone.
If you don't ask, then it is down to an individuals comprehension of the word. The word may means something different to someone else, but that then needs to be tested in court.
I still see no statutes that compel the OP to get an SVA if he has some second hand part and a chassis plate.
Any vehicle that's had major alterations to its structure won't pass an mot.Radically altered means completely or fundamentally. If a vehicle still has four wheels, tyres, a steering wheel, seats, a motor and transmission and some parts of the original vehicle it is still fundamentally the same. Others might not view it in such a way, but that would then need to be tested in court.
I doubt the DVSA would like to test the meaning of the word 'radically' in court as it would likely lead to many people realising that they don't legally need an SVA. They prefer the ignorance of people just following their rules, thinking that they are law.
The problem is that as soon as a hole is drilled or a non OE part fitted the vehicle is modified and is therefore no longer Type approved. This is obviously a nonsense.
By using the word radically, people then will ask them what radically means. That puts people under their authority. So you are correct in what the DVSA allow if you put yourself under their authority, but they are just a company or part of a company, that has zero jurisdiction over anyone.
If you don't ask, then it is down to an individuals comprehension of the word. The word may means something different to someone else, but that then needs to be tested in court.
I still see no statutes that compel the OP to get an SVA if he has some second hand part and a chassis plate.
Gemaeden said:
Article 21 (9) refers to a first licence. If the car has already been licenced (even in some other form) this does not apply. In my original post I didn't refer to a totally new vehicle but one that had been altered.
Article 21(9) refers to a 'relevant vehicle'. You need to follow that definition through the tangle of other legislation, but as I've already said, you end up at an EU directive that basically defines that any vehicle that has been modified away from its originally type-approved form is considered to be a new vehicle that needs re-approval.We're talking about IVA, incidentally, not SVA - SVA hasn't existed for decades.
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