New project car, kit car newb
Discussion
So I won this....
Not sure where to start......only got y/day and got home and not done much dismantling yet and not hear it run even
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kit-Car-Single-Seater-V...
Original pic as since removed
I think just about everything needs checking........almost everything is project/ mock up in nature, or possibly a bit rusty. siezed.....a bit of a discarded project I think of a previous decade.
........may be needing some help.......and a fair bit of time ! maybe an engine check over too ?
May need a few drinks to settle into the idea....like happened to get me to buy it
Not sure where to start......only got y/day and got home and not done much dismantling yet and not hear it run even
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kit-Car-Single-Seater-V...
Original pic as since removed
I think just about everything needs checking........almost everything is project/ mock up in nature, or possibly a bit rusty. siezed.....a bit of a discarded project I think of a previous decade.
........may be needing some help.......and a fair bit of time ! maybe an engine check over too ?
May need a few drinks to settle into the idea....like happened to get me to buy it
Edited by daytonavrs on Sunday 6th September 11:10
As a track car the choice of a Blackbird engine is pretty much the worst choice due to oil surge problems, to make it reliable it would need to be dry sump and even then for the outlay you wont get the power out of it for similar age CBR1000 or R1 big bang motors that have none of the reliability issues.
hkp57 said:
As a track car the choice of a Blackbird engine is pretty much the worst choice due to oil surge problems, to make it reliable it would need to be dry sump and even then for the outlay you wont get the power out of it for similar age CBR1000 or R1 big bang motors that have none of the reliability issues.
Except R1 big bangs are snapping cranks.....Fair enough, I'm pretty happy despite that its not the very best powerplant.
I might see how it goes, if it works, I can always look at substituting another engine?
Its my first real kitcar let alone, that its a BEC / kitcar
( having had a stint away from bikes, its kind of a spiritual return for me to excitement of a bike motor although dampened a bit with the extra weight I'm not used to).
Will have to try and lose some weight from me - and the car ! Which may be where losing the current bodywork in favour of original RF86 may come in.
Its meant to have had some sump preparation but I am looking to verify that, along with many other things
I might see how it goes, if it works, I can always look at substituting another engine?
Its my first real kitcar let alone, that its a BEC / kitcar
( having had a stint away from bikes, its kind of a spiritual return for me to excitement of a bike motor although dampened a bit with the extra weight I'm not used to).
Will have to try and lose some weight from me - and the car ! Which may be where losing the current bodywork in favour of original RF86 may come in.
Its meant to have had some sump preparation but I am looking to verify that, along with many other things
I'll spell out what others are alluding to, as we shouldn't assume you know.
Firebirds were a popular choice in the early days of BEC. However, it was soon discovered that they suffer from oil starvation in corners.
In a bike, when you corner, centripetal force keeps the oil level with the bottom of the sump, the bike leans in the corner and the oil matches that lean angle.
In a car the sump stays flat and when you corner the oil climbs the side of the pan, leaving the pickup dry.
In the case of the firebird, this results in the #3 (IIRC) piston exiting the engine through the side of the crankcase.
Not a problem if driven gently, but long corners (was is lefts only?) driven enthusiastically were engine killers.
Sump baffles were tried, but I don't think were effective. It was a long time ago, so I could have that wrong. From memory the only effective solution was to dry sump. Sadly this made the Firebird a very costly engine for it's power output. It simply did not make sense financially to use one.
Apologies for going over old ground if you already knew all that.
Firebirds were a popular choice in the early days of BEC. However, it was soon discovered that they suffer from oil starvation in corners.
In a bike, when you corner, centripetal force keeps the oil level with the bottom of the sump, the bike leans in the corner and the oil matches that lean angle.
In a car the sump stays flat and when you corner the oil climbs the side of the pan, leaving the pickup dry.
In the case of the firebird, this results in the #3 (IIRC) piston exiting the engine through the side of the crankcase.
Not a problem if driven gently, but long corners (was is lefts only?) driven enthusiastically were engine killers.
Sump baffles were tried, but I don't think were effective. It was a long time ago, so I could have that wrong. From memory the only effective solution was to dry sump. Sadly this made the Firebird a very costly engine for it's power output. It simply did not make sense financially to use one.
Apologies for going over old ground if you already knew all that.
mikeveal said:
Firebirds were a popular choice in the early days of BEC.....
;cough: Blackbirds :cough:There were Blackbirds and Fireblades
A Firebird is an American muscle car built by Pontiac...
Most of the BECs that experienced oil surge problems were 'Seven' types, that mounted their engines longitudinally. A transverse installation like this may or may not suffer the same problems... logic suggests that it would suffer the same problem under heavy braking, but since that's unlikely to be of the same duration as a long corner, you might get away with it.
As the OP suggest himself, since the engine is already there, I'd be inclined to run it until it blows up, and think about an alternative as a replacement if and when that happens.
The RF86 original is growing on me and I'm likening to fairings made up for its original body now, and may reintroduce its heritage,
I'm looking for RF86 panels now and had some priced up, £1400 the lot I think it was, haven't seen any battered or used ones yet.
I'm actually starting to really like the chassis, I think I was looking beyond the nasty fairings and actually must have been the images seeing beneath to its skeleton that convinced me to buy
I'm starting to think this was lucked out purchase, I would never have dreamed of thinking I could own something with a race chassis for this kind of money, let alone with a engine already. Happy days. Not underestimating amount of work to even feel its ok for me to track yet though.
I'm looking for RF86 panels now and had some priced up, £1400 the lot I think it was, haven't seen any battered or used ones yet.
I'm actually starting to really like the chassis, I think I was looking beyond the nasty fairings and actually must have been the images seeing beneath to its skeleton that convinced me to buy
I'm starting to think this was lucked out purchase, I would never have dreamed of thinking I could own something with a race chassis for this kind of money, let alone with a engine already. Happy days. Not underestimating amount of work to even feel its ok for me to track yet though.
Pretty ! Mine wont ever quite look like because modifications but I think it can be 95% closer to what it originally looked like.
http://www.racingclassifieds.com.au/index.php?page...
http://www.racingclassifieds.com.au/index.php?page...
daytonavrs said:
I'm actually starting to really like the chassis...
Could I ask what's going on with the front suspension on the car?:
The upper wishbones look like rocker arms, but the coilovers are mounted high up in front of the dash hoop, where you'd expect them if they were actuated by pushrods.
How are they linked to the wishbones?
Edited to add:
Disregard the question. I was being lazy. A few seconds on Google has revealed the answer... rocker wishbone to pull link to bellcrank actuating the coilover:
Interesting.... if rather complicated and heavy, compared to a simple pushrod solution.
Edited by Equus on Thursday 16th January 22:59
BIt more fun on van diemen rf86 chassis no 1086
Its horrid outside, the kind of typical average beautiful British day. Global warming eh !
So had all the fairings off to get a feel for it, and see what kind of shocking state its in and to concrete some ideas I have about progressing.
So my feelings
1/ I have 2 choices live with the existing plastics or ditch and go for originals ( on plus side, at least its fully kitted out bodykit ! )
If I wanted to go back to rf86 I feel I may struggle to homologize the chassis with what its now been done to it, esp the position of engine and the rad sticking out on one side how its mounted to its "new underfloor" that fits within the existing shell - but wouldnt if I went back to original.
Not wanting to be too critical about the previous bodywork but I would give my spleen for it to look more like the original RF86 I just prefer its original look. That would sacrifice the front and rear wing though that don't belong on original car.
But as well as looks there is some weight saving, extra GRP support body underneath, thos "big" kit must weight a bit more, bits of wood for supports etc, support brackets etc?
Plus its ugly when its all off too. As nature intended so to speak. I think I'd even run it more naked just until I'm comfortable with the car running well too.
But If I tried to go original its going to cost a pretty penny >£1k - unless I try and use as a learning vehicle for fabricating fibreglass and moulds myself.....literally in at the deep end.
I don't know, both directions don't worry me too much. I'd be interested in the feelings of others about the fairings in case I'm going off on one.
2/ not sure what to do with the switchgear off the bike ? Need to have some new panel under the digi dash to mount some stuff, that isnt too heavy but structurally solid for that kind of stuff.
3/ road legal ness, I think due to 1/ and my thoughts on weight saving and making her more a track special that this will go out the window
4/ tidying up, dont think this is going to be the hardest thing to worry about.
5/ safety and comfort, aiming to get either GRP or carbon seat in there with harness, half the harness is missing so needs one anyway. 4 point ?
in date or not ? There is loose stuff everywhere on the steering which works, but wouldn't dare use it yet, needs methodical
I think one of the clamping nuts +bolts is missing on the steering rack for instance.....turns but you wouldnt risk your life on it.
Needs a good setup.
6/ running, this was the key mission to get everything off so I could have a poke about, mechanicals look ok, seems to have oil on the dip etc and water in rad.
However it was a bit of a fail to keep started, I got a bit of life out momentarily where she sounded like a real bike engine but couldnt mantain
Good news though at least trying to start and NOT siezed which was my initial concern you never know what you have, but definitely needs some setup/tuning etc. Calling the Bike doctor !
Its horrid outside, the kind of typical average beautiful British day. Global warming eh !
So had all the fairings off to get a feel for it, and see what kind of shocking state its in and to concrete some ideas I have about progressing.
So my feelings
1/ I have 2 choices live with the existing plastics or ditch and go for originals ( on plus side, at least its fully kitted out bodykit ! )
If I wanted to go back to rf86 I feel I may struggle to homologize the chassis with what its now been done to it, esp the position of engine and the rad sticking out on one side how its mounted to its "new underfloor" that fits within the existing shell - but wouldnt if I went back to original.
Not wanting to be too critical about the previous bodywork but I would give my spleen for it to look more like the original RF86 I just prefer its original look. That would sacrifice the front and rear wing though that don't belong on original car.
But as well as looks there is some weight saving, extra GRP support body underneath, thos "big" kit must weight a bit more, bits of wood for supports etc, support brackets etc?
Plus its ugly when its all off too. As nature intended so to speak. I think I'd even run it more naked just until I'm comfortable with the car running well too.
But If I tried to go original its going to cost a pretty penny >£1k - unless I try and use as a learning vehicle for fabricating fibreglass and moulds myself.....literally in at the deep end.
I don't know, both directions don't worry me too much. I'd be interested in the feelings of others about the fairings in case I'm going off on one.
2/ not sure what to do with the switchgear off the bike ? Need to have some new panel under the digi dash to mount some stuff, that isnt too heavy but structurally solid for that kind of stuff.
3/ road legal ness, I think due to 1/ and my thoughts on weight saving and making her more a track special that this will go out the window
4/ tidying up, dont think this is going to be the hardest thing to worry about.
5/ safety and comfort, aiming to get either GRP or carbon seat in there with harness, half the harness is missing so needs one anyway. 4 point ?
in date or not ? There is loose stuff everywhere on the steering which works, but wouldn't dare use it yet, needs methodical
I think one of the clamping nuts +bolts is missing on the steering rack for instance.....turns but you wouldnt risk your life on it.
Needs a good setup.
6/ running, this was the key mission to get everything off so I could have a poke about, mechanicals look ok, seems to have oil on the dip etc and water in rad.
However it was a bit of a fail to keep started, I got a bit of life out momentarily where she sounded like a real bike engine but couldnt mantain
Good news though at least trying to start and NOT siezed which was my initial concern you never know what you have, but definitely needs some setup/tuning etc. Calling the Bike doctor !
Its still an unholy mess and all I have done so far is clean out the fuel and the carbs, but got it started at least
Small steps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRmFJpNk1YE
Small steps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRmFJpNk1YE
Interesting project.
Having spend some time assessing what you have, the next stage needs to be a firm plan as to the what the end goal is, else you will not reach it.
- Road going car?
- Track day only car?
- Racing car?
As has been suggested, to get it road legal would require an IVA, which would be a significant undertaking, but if this was the objective would potentially be possible depending on time time/budget constraints and choice of engine and bodywork, presumably a key reason the previous owner switched the bodywork for-instance, as open wheels are right out.
Perhaps the line of least resistance for a use for the car beyond an excuse to spend time in the garage, is to use it on trackdays if that appears interesting. Certainly thats a fairly valid option for a use. However trackdays these days are not without their limitations, such as noise level, and for instance I understand from my very limited involvement with formula student, you can have issues with having your feet in front of the axle line.
Another option is to use it for some form of racing, all racing has some sort of rules, but some are more or less restrictive, and or costly, than others. If you want to do circuit racing, you would have to find a suitable series the car could be made to fit in, likewise sprinting and hill climbing. Another option might be autosolos which offers cheap motoring fun.
I don't know without looking at it how much work might be required to return the car to original spec, or even just to cut the chassis extensions out and get modified RF86 bodywork to fit. Obviously you have acquired it for a fraction of a historic formula ford, but if that is the end game, with a lot of parts missing.
Bottom line, what do you want to do?
Daniel
Having spend some time assessing what you have, the next stage needs to be a firm plan as to the what the end goal is, else you will not reach it.
- Road going car?
- Track day only car?
- Racing car?
As has been suggested, to get it road legal would require an IVA, which would be a significant undertaking, but if this was the objective would potentially be possible depending on time time/budget constraints and choice of engine and bodywork, presumably a key reason the previous owner switched the bodywork for-instance, as open wheels are right out.
Perhaps the line of least resistance for a use for the car beyond an excuse to spend time in the garage, is to use it on trackdays if that appears interesting. Certainly thats a fairly valid option for a use. However trackdays these days are not without their limitations, such as noise level, and for instance I understand from my very limited involvement with formula student, you can have issues with having your feet in front of the axle line.
Another option is to use it for some form of racing, all racing has some sort of rules, but some are more or less restrictive, and or costly, than others. If you want to do circuit racing, you would have to find a suitable series the car could be made to fit in, likewise sprinting and hill climbing. Another option might be autosolos which offers cheap motoring fun.
I don't know without looking at it how much work might be required to return the car to original spec, or even just to cut the chassis extensions out and get modified RF86 bodywork to fit. Obviously you have acquired it for a fraction of a historic formula ford, but if that is the end game, with a lot of parts missing.
Bottom line, what do you want to do?
Daniel
Hi
interesting bit of kit, not a particularly unusual conversion to do for speed events (hillclimbs and sprints) and similar have appeared in circuit racing in the Monoposto championship. Taking an older circuit racing car and doing the bike engine conversion was the done thing a few years ago (built mine doing just this in 2010 and I still run it) and there's plenty still out there and certainly at club level there's no reason why that wouldn't be a competitive proposition.
Looking at it, I'd forget the idea of it seeing a road - the suspension travel will be way too short for anything other than a track really, it would appear that the original builder has gone for the big wheels to get the ground clearance as they'll have run out of adjustment with the stock suspension - which is great for you as getting 13" rims is going to be simple, fixing messed about with suspension wouldn't be.
I'd suggest getting yourself along to a local sprint or hillclimb (once the season starts - check out the Hillclimb & Sprint Association website - they have a full national calendar, local clubbies through to British championships all listed) and you'll almost certainly see some very similar cars.
You'd need to do remarkably little to it to run it at a club level speed event or especially something like the Javelin Speed Series, that would be well worth a look, you could run the car 'as is' in that.
If you wanted to do circuit racing or even track/test days I'd suggest a dry sump would be a really good idea.. for speed events then it'd probably worth giving what you have a bash, lots of people successfully run wet sumps in these events.
Further to the above - you'll need 13" rims (for whatever you do) as it'll need some suitable tyres - which are a very different construction to a normal road tyre as they're designed for a car weighing 4 to 5 times what that'll weigh.
For competition it'll be Slicks / Wets, for Trackdays then you could use something like an Avon ZZR (soft compound) or their ACB10 Formula Ford tyre, or similar from other competition tyre manufacturers - You will not believe the grip..
Most small single seaters in speed events set the car up to run F3/F4 sized rubber, this makes tyre choice easy - but also means that secondhand tyres (which is very common in club motorsport) are easily obtainable.
Ref the seat - google '2 pack foam seat kit' - YouTube the same before trying it, as getting it wrong is messy and sticky..
Ref the bodywork (and other Van Diemen bits) chat to Universal Racing Services - for new stuff.
But try this bloke first:-
Google 'Dermot Healy Race Cars' his contact details will pop up - he supplies seemingly most of the uk clubbie racers with secondhand bits.. and is an all round good bloke, he'll try and help you if he can (as that way he'll flog you more stuff eventually!)
Keep the wings - even if you obtained the formula ford bodywork, for speed events you'll want them anyway.
You'll need 6 point belts - ask the Van Diemen / Classic Formula Ford lads which supplier they recommend or URS (as above) would know what dimensions you need (they're custom made to suit the chassis).
I reckon that you could have that on the track at the beginning of this season if you went for it, all the hard stuff is done, fettle the bodywork, get some secondhand 13" rims and a set of decent tyres, new set of belts and you'd be away.. you will not believe how quick that will be, until you've been running it for a year or two and then you'll have caught up with it and be wanting to make it quicker!
interesting bit of kit, not a particularly unusual conversion to do for speed events (hillclimbs and sprints) and similar have appeared in circuit racing in the Monoposto championship. Taking an older circuit racing car and doing the bike engine conversion was the done thing a few years ago (built mine doing just this in 2010 and I still run it) and there's plenty still out there and certainly at club level there's no reason why that wouldn't be a competitive proposition.
Looking at it, I'd forget the idea of it seeing a road - the suspension travel will be way too short for anything other than a track really, it would appear that the original builder has gone for the big wheels to get the ground clearance as they'll have run out of adjustment with the stock suspension - which is great for you as getting 13" rims is going to be simple, fixing messed about with suspension wouldn't be.
I'd suggest getting yourself along to a local sprint or hillclimb (once the season starts - check out the Hillclimb & Sprint Association website - they have a full national calendar, local clubbies through to British championships all listed) and you'll almost certainly see some very similar cars.
You'd need to do remarkably little to it to run it at a club level speed event or especially something like the Javelin Speed Series, that would be well worth a look, you could run the car 'as is' in that.
If you wanted to do circuit racing or even track/test days I'd suggest a dry sump would be a really good idea.. for speed events then it'd probably worth giving what you have a bash, lots of people successfully run wet sumps in these events.
Further to the above - you'll need 13" rims (for whatever you do) as it'll need some suitable tyres - which are a very different construction to a normal road tyre as they're designed for a car weighing 4 to 5 times what that'll weigh.
For competition it'll be Slicks / Wets, for Trackdays then you could use something like an Avon ZZR (soft compound) or their ACB10 Formula Ford tyre, or similar from other competition tyre manufacturers - You will not believe the grip..
Most small single seaters in speed events set the car up to run F3/F4 sized rubber, this makes tyre choice easy - but also means that secondhand tyres (which is very common in club motorsport) are easily obtainable.
Ref the seat - google '2 pack foam seat kit' - YouTube the same before trying it, as getting it wrong is messy and sticky..
Ref the bodywork (and other Van Diemen bits) chat to Universal Racing Services - for new stuff.
But try this bloke first:-
Google 'Dermot Healy Race Cars' his contact details will pop up - he supplies seemingly most of the uk clubbie racers with secondhand bits.. and is an all round good bloke, he'll try and help you if he can (as that way he'll flog you more stuff eventually!)
Keep the wings - even if you obtained the formula ford bodywork, for speed events you'll want them anyway.
You'll need 6 point belts - ask the Van Diemen / Classic Formula Ford lads which supplier they recommend or URS (as above) would know what dimensions you need (they're custom made to suit the chassis).
I reckon that you could have that on the track at the beginning of this season if you went for it, all the hard stuff is done, fettle the bodywork, get some secondhand 13" rims and a set of decent tyres, new set of belts and you'd be away.. you will not believe how quick that will be, until you've been running it for a year or two and then you'll have caught up with it and be wanting to make it quicker!
Thanks for the last 2 posts, have hit of a bit brick road of my own involvement (lack of experience in this detail of mechanics) and very well may be looking to farm out some work to pros...electrics for instance. and other servicing
Realistic that road car this is not, was thinking occasional permitted track special things, then might get bored eventually and lump in for something a bit more everydayer/7 style perhaps but fair to give it a chance first.
Realistic that road car this is not, was thinking occasional permitted track special things, then might get bored eventually and lump in for something a bit more everydayer/7 style perhaps but fair to give it a chance first.
daytonavrs][I said:
was thinking occasional permitted track special things, then might get bored eventually and lump in for something a bit more everydayer/7 style perhaps but fair to give it a chance first.
No quite sure what you are meaning here.I would have a look at your options and get a firm idea of what is you want to do, else espically if you farm out the work, it could become a very expensive road to knowhere.
Do you mean
- Trackdays; access to racing tracks, mixed run-what-you-brung cars, driving quickly but not racing.
- Autosolo/autotesting; tight carpark based timed runs between cones, in a class against other specials.
- Sprinting and Hill climbing; one-direction high speed timed runs on suitable tracks/circuits.
- Circuit racing; wheel-to-wheel racing on track, with similar types of car.
What if any driving experience do you have? Have you done trackday before? Budget?
Daniel
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