I think I'm in the Q Plate Zone - Advice needed
Discussion
Hi,
I wasn't sure where to post this question, but I think you guys will be best placed to advise.
My project to be, sort of started, is as follows. 1964 Porsche 356, 1990 Porsche 911 (964). I plan to use the suspension, steering and gearbox from the 964 and graft onto the 356. This entails cutting out the centre tunnel from the 964 plus the suspension mounting points front and rear and surrounding material and merging into the 356. This is a mod done in the USA by Emory Motorsports.
The engine will use some of the parts from the 964. I'm getting a new 4 cylinder block, crank and cams, the remainder of the parts are taken from the 964 to complete the engine.
So from what I can tell I've no chance of keeping the original number plate, get an age related plate or use the donor 964 plate, as I fall foul of the points system straight away due to the chassis mods. A 'Q' plate will devalue the car to much.
Do you think I'll get away with a Reconstructed classic vehicle? I have V5C's for the 356 and 964 and receipts. Also I have a receipt for the new engine kit. I think the new parts will put pay to this one.
Anyway I would welcome any comments if you know a legal way I can achieve my goal, or I could be back to the drawing board
Thanks
I wasn't sure where to post this question, but I think you guys will be best placed to advise.
My project to be, sort of started, is as follows. 1964 Porsche 356, 1990 Porsche 911 (964). I plan to use the suspension, steering and gearbox from the 964 and graft onto the 356. This entails cutting out the centre tunnel from the 964 plus the suspension mounting points front and rear and surrounding material and merging into the 356. This is a mod done in the USA by Emory Motorsports.
The engine will use some of the parts from the 964. I'm getting a new 4 cylinder block, crank and cams, the remainder of the parts are taken from the 964 to complete the engine.
So from what I can tell I've no chance of keeping the original number plate, get an age related plate or use the donor 964 plate, as I fall foul of the points system straight away due to the chassis mods. A 'Q' plate will devalue the car to much.
Do you think I'll get away with a Reconstructed classic vehicle? I have V5C's for the 356 and 964 and receipts. Also I have a receipt for the new engine kit. I think the new parts will put pay to this one.
Anyway I would welcome any comments if you know a legal way I can achieve my goal, or I could be back to the drawing board
Thanks
It might be worth speaking to Martin and Walker at Technic Motorsport who do classic Porsche replicas from new or even Paul Stephens who are back dating 964’s to make them into 70’s replicas (not as far reaching as your project I expect however).
If you follow the points system, the heavy amendments to the 356 shell + the engine change will trigger the IVA request (which is a separate subject in itself and you might never pass) and possible Q plate outcome (if you did) which is almost impossible to remove as your looking to create a whole new vehicle from these 2 donors (albeit one that looks like the 356).
As you have both vehicles though you could state that the majority of components are from the known older vehicle and ask to retain its number (or an age related one) if you can convince them the original car is in there somewhere, but you have no guarantee of this and it’s not worth staking your project on it. A car successfully passing IVA is given a modern number which can eventually be replaced for a private age related registration but I don’t think your project would pass the IVA based on how strict it now is.
Recording the engine swap I understand for insurance purposes but there are some very heavily modified cars out there (on custom chassis with air suspension etc) that don’t get re-registered as a q vehicles as they maintain the majority of the original chassis. Is it worth asking in those forums what the limits are to running gear modification and compromising your project aim instead of trying to create a new vehicle?
Hot rods etc will have been subject to an amnesty to allow them to still drive on the roads but this ended in the late nineties. However lots of owners are still modding their cars today so it’s worth asking.
VW beetle based kit cars maintained the original floor pan with a different GRP body to retain the reg. Regulation has moved on but could you not class this as a 964 rebody (using a 356 shell on a 964 base) which is closer to reality than your stating it as a modified 356 based on the final cars component ingredients?
That’s how the Ferrari replica builders used to avoid the SVA and IVA by using the manufacturers sub structure and (just) extensively modifying the outer unstressed skin of the vehicle. I expect the 964 carries some body stress as it’s more of a monocoque than the 356 but you would need to check as the regs are only getting tighter (and could change part way through your project!)
In terms of project phasing, is there anything stopping you swapping the engine first and making this good with the DVLA then once this has been accepted upgrading the suspension as a separate project in stages further down the line? I don’t know how the tipping point works for components anymore but an engine swap alone would not I expect be an issue based on the points system for getting an updated V5 and a car legally entitled to drive on the road.
As you state it’s not worth falling foul of the regulations especially in view of the donors involved but I would investigate further to see if any compromises / advice or project phasing can help you achieve the car you want that is also recognised legally as a modified 356 Porsche and not a whole new creation of your own that requires a q plate.
I went through these hoops myself with an incorrectly registered replica Dino many years ago, the modifications to a replica (or even the real thing) to make it pass the IVA test would render it economically a non- starter (CE marked glass / headlamp height / seatbelt mount separation points etc etc). I also looked at ways to remove a Q plate from another car I owned but the IVA process would have cost more than buying another completed similar vehicle that had already gone through the test.
If you can omit the running gear aspect of your project and ‘just’ switch the engine and box into your 356 while improving the suspension (but not beyond the points threshold) could you live with that?
Just my thoughts based on previous experience with modified / kit cars so ensure you check out legally where you stand today before committing to your next step but good luck and keep us up to date with how you get on.
If you follow the points system, the heavy amendments to the 356 shell + the engine change will trigger the IVA request (which is a separate subject in itself and you might never pass) and possible Q plate outcome (if you did) which is almost impossible to remove as your looking to create a whole new vehicle from these 2 donors (albeit one that looks like the 356).
As you have both vehicles though you could state that the majority of components are from the known older vehicle and ask to retain its number (or an age related one) if you can convince them the original car is in there somewhere, but you have no guarantee of this and it’s not worth staking your project on it. A car successfully passing IVA is given a modern number which can eventually be replaced for a private age related registration but I don’t think your project would pass the IVA based on how strict it now is.
Recording the engine swap I understand for insurance purposes but there are some very heavily modified cars out there (on custom chassis with air suspension etc) that don’t get re-registered as a q vehicles as they maintain the majority of the original chassis. Is it worth asking in those forums what the limits are to running gear modification and compromising your project aim instead of trying to create a new vehicle?
Hot rods etc will have been subject to an amnesty to allow them to still drive on the roads but this ended in the late nineties. However lots of owners are still modding their cars today so it’s worth asking.
VW beetle based kit cars maintained the original floor pan with a different GRP body to retain the reg. Regulation has moved on but could you not class this as a 964 rebody (using a 356 shell on a 964 base) which is closer to reality than your stating it as a modified 356 based on the final cars component ingredients?
That’s how the Ferrari replica builders used to avoid the SVA and IVA by using the manufacturers sub structure and (just) extensively modifying the outer unstressed skin of the vehicle. I expect the 964 carries some body stress as it’s more of a monocoque than the 356 but you would need to check as the regs are only getting tighter (and could change part way through your project!)
In terms of project phasing, is there anything stopping you swapping the engine first and making this good with the DVLA then once this has been accepted upgrading the suspension as a separate project in stages further down the line? I don’t know how the tipping point works for components anymore but an engine swap alone would not I expect be an issue based on the points system for getting an updated V5 and a car legally entitled to drive on the road.
As you state it’s not worth falling foul of the regulations especially in view of the donors involved but I would investigate further to see if any compromises / advice or project phasing can help you achieve the car you want that is also recognised legally as a modified 356 Porsche and not a whole new creation of your own that requires a q plate.
I went through these hoops myself with an incorrectly registered replica Dino many years ago, the modifications to a replica (or even the real thing) to make it pass the IVA test would render it economically a non- starter (CE marked glass / headlamp height / seatbelt mount separation points etc etc). I also looked at ways to remove a Q plate from another car I owned but the IVA process would have cost more than buying another completed similar vehicle that had already gone through the test.
If you can omit the running gear aspect of your project and ‘just’ switch the engine and box into your 356 while improving the suspension (but not beyond the points threshold) could you live with that?
Just my thoughts based on previous experience with modified / kit cars so ensure you check out legally where you stand today before committing to your next step but good luck and keep us up to date with how you get on.
Firstly thank you for the comprehensive answer, I do appreciate the time taken.
996Type said:
It might be worth speaking to Martin and Walker at Technic Motorsport who do classic Porsche replicas from new or even Paul Stephens who are back dating 964’s to make them into 70’s replicas (not as far reaching as your project I expect however).
I will definitely contact these guys996Type said:
If you follow the points system, the heavy amendments to the 356 shell + the engine change will trigger the IVA request (which is a separate subject in itself and you might never pass) and possible Q plate outcome (if you did) which is almost impossible to remove as your looking to create a whole new vehicle from these 2 donors (albeit one that looks like the 356).
IVA will be tough for sure, there is value in the car so I would consider as a last resort, but I thought that an IVA always means a Q plate?996Type said:
Recording the engine swap I understand for insurance purposes but there are some very heavily modified cars out there (on custom chassis with air suspension etc) that don’t get re-registered as a q vehicles as they maintain the majority of the original chassis. Is it worth asking in those forums what the limits are to running gear modification and compromising your project aim instead of trying to create a new vehicle?
Hot rods etc will have been subject to an amnesty to allow them to still drive on the roads but this ended in the late nineties. However lots of owners are still modding their cars today so it’s worth asking.
Yes good idea, I will head over to some of those forums.Hot rods etc will have been subject to an amnesty to allow them to still drive on the roads but this ended in the late nineties. However lots of owners are still modding their cars today so it’s worth asking.
996Type said:
VW beetle based kit cars maintained the original floor pan with a different GRP body to retain the reg. Regulation has moved on but could you not class this as a 964 rebody (using a 356 shell on a 964 base) which is closer to reality than your stating it as a modified 356 based on the final cars component ingredients?
That’s how the Ferrari replica builders used to avoid the SVA and IVA by using the manufacturers sub structure and (just) extensively modifying the outer unstressed skin of the vehicle. I expect the 964 carries some body stress as it’s more of a monocoque than the 356 but you would need to check as the regs are only getting tighter (and could change part way through your project!)
I think this does not apply to monocoques, which the 356 and 964 are. The beetle has a separate chassis. That’s how the Ferrari replica builders used to avoid the SVA and IVA by using the manufacturers sub structure and (just) extensively modifying the outer unstressed skin of the vehicle. I expect the 964 carries some body stress as it’s more of a monocoque than the 356 but you would need to check as the regs are only getting tighter (and could change part way through your project!)
996Type said:
In terms of project phasing, is there anything stopping you swapping the engine first and making this good with the DVLA then once this has been accepted upgrading the suspension as a separate project in stages further down the line? I don’t know how the tipping point works for components anymore but an engine swap alone would not I expect be an issue based on the points system for getting an updated V5 and a car legally entitled to drive on the road.
As I understand each change will reduce the points, so in the end I'd fall foul. But yes I think the engine on it's own is no problem.996Type said:
As you state it’s not worth falling foul of the regulations especially in view of the donors involved but I would investigate further to see if any compromises / advice or project phasing can help you achieve the car you want that is also recognised legally as a modified 356 Porsche and not a whole new creation of your own that requires a q plate.
Agreed996Type said:
If you can omit the running gear aspect of your project and ‘just’ switch the engine and box into your 356 while improving the suspension (but not beyond the points threshold) could you live with that?
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