Kit car show Donnington - Views
Discussion
Good morning all, just thought I would post my views (NB these are all IMHO of course) of the cars I saw at the kit-car show at Donnington on Saturday to see what you thought.
I thought the show was one of the best I'd been to, certainly the quality of the stands have improved since the "kit car and specials" show I went to years ago before buying my kit.
Winner of the "doh" award.
Westfield. I went to have a look at the XTR2 in the flesh and it wasn't there! I asked about it and found that they had smashed up the front end the weekend before. (hence the doh award). Their stand was impressive and their customer service was excellent. They had no problems with questions and allowed you to have good long looks and "play" with the cars on display. If I were them I would have at least got a running chassis and large posters etc. I was very impressed with the bike-engined seven.
Most flamboiant stand
Has to go to Ultima, they had their own marquee and rotating GTR very impressive guys.
Worst customer reaction.
This I feel is a draw, between the people at t5 developments and Caterham. I should explain this: I went with my father and I have been interested in Bike engined cars. My father rides a BMW k1100 (touring style bike) and he was interested in cars when he is "too old for bike" (his words not mine). So we are wandering around asking questions, having a good look etc. So clearly we are both genuinely interested in future projects.
t5 Developments
I see the t5 and go nice car, to find out its a "pure trackday car", So I ask the obvious question "will you produce a road legal version?" the bloke about bit my head off, saying that there "never could be a proper trackday and road legal car" IMHO Caterham, and Westfield seem to have been able to do this for years. I felt the chap was getting confused between a trackday car and a racing car. His friend then followed on saying that I should get a trailer. I pointed out that I drove a mini as my everyday car and his reaction was to sell it and buy a 4x4. The price of the kit was £10k, not to mention the doubled up insurance etc. Guys this is very expensive for a toy you can only use on the track. If I was so inclined I would buy a single seater, get a MSA licence and drive on test days. The "piece de resistance" in their aggresive style of anti-road/track cars they ask: "what would you do if you wrecked the car you drove to the track in" his face was a picture when I said "I'd call the RAC, they will cover you for track day cars". Whilst I appreciate your philosphy and thoughts I would have thought being aggressive at a kit-car show to customers was not the best way to sell your product.
Caterham
I have always had the greatest respect for Caterham and have often thought about owning one of these fine machines. However the reaction I got to "is there a bike engined version" was incredable. It was as if I was something he'd trod in. He went on that a car engine was far more practical and that the bike engine wasn't suitable for the car etc. Now whilst I'm sure he had some valid points to think about, his completely poo poo attitude to the concept made him look very ill-informed and unprofessional. Esp considering that one of their suppliers do a bike engined version (and it did particulaly well in Evo I recall). He appeared very stuck in his ways without looking to the future. Slagging off your competition in an almost arogant fashion is not a good way to sell cars.
Best Stand/Customer reaction
DAX cars, The chap couldn't have enough time for us. He was excellent, I asked questions about the SVA and he told me in detail how potential problems could be solved. He was honest about areas of unrealibility they had experienced and how they had gone about solving the problems. It was clear he was an expert in his field and struck me as the kind of person that would spend time with you over the phone if you hit a tricky part of the build. The cars they showed were superb and the standard of engineering looked excellent. I was extremely impressed with this company and they now are very high on the list of "possible future projects"
Biggest disappointment
MK engineering. I've now seen this car in the flesh and I'm afraid I wasn't that impressed. I have been very interested in this car but the project that was presented at the show looked very rough. The chain drive system looks very fragile IMHO and the quality of the bodywork/fit wasn't good. I realise that this is their development car but the company was saying that they would have the car in SVA compliant form and it was clear that the car was no where near. The advertising material cleverly showed the rear of the car with a number plate and lights etc. but the front has no lights and parts of the bodywork had gaps/misfit by 10mm!! On the positive side the chassis itself looked excellent and I wouldn't hesitate in buying their locost chassis. BUT IMHO The MK project is still a long way off being complete and I personally wouldn't have shown it yet.
Honourable mentions
Avian (appologies if spelt wrong), a 2CV based 3 wheeler. My father really liked these and the people showing were customers. Again friendly, keen to answer questions, and lovely cars.
Marlin, beutiful cars and friendly people again not afraid to answer questions about the SVA and methods of solving the problems.
There you go, my "review of the show". Did any of you lot go and what did you think.
Smeagol
>>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 16th September 11:56
I thought the show was one of the best I'd been to, certainly the quality of the stands have improved since the "kit car and specials" show I went to years ago before buying my kit.
Winner of the "doh" award.
Westfield. I went to have a look at the XTR2 in the flesh and it wasn't there! I asked about it and found that they had smashed up the front end the weekend before. (hence the doh award). Their stand was impressive and their customer service was excellent. They had no problems with questions and allowed you to have good long looks and "play" with the cars on display. If I were them I would have at least got a running chassis and large posters etc. I was very impressed with the bike-engined seven.
Most flamboiant stand
Has to go to Ultima, they had their own marquee and rotating GTR very impressive guys.
Worst customer reaction.
This I feel is a draw, between the people at t5 developments and Caterham. I should explain this: I went with my father and I have been interested in Bike engined cars. My father rides a BMW k1100 (touring style bike) and he was interested in cars when he is "too old for bike" (his words not mine). So we are wandering around asking questions, having a good look etc. So clearly we are both genuinely interested in future projects.
t5 Developments
I see the t5 and go nice car, to find out its a "pure trackday car", So I ask the obvious question "will you produce a road legal version?" the bloke about bit my head off, saying that there "never could be a proper trackday and road legal car" IMHO Caterham, and Westfield seem to have been able to do this for years. I felt the chap was getting confused between a trackday car and a racing car. His friend then followed on saying that I should get a trailer. I pointed out that I drove a mini as my everyday car and his reaction was to sell it and buy a 4x4. The price of the kit was £10k, not to mention the doubled up insurance etc. Guys this is very expensive for a toy you can only use on the track. If I was so inclined I would buy a single seater, get a MSA licence and drive on test days. The "piece de resistance" in their aggresive style of anti-road/track cars they ask: "what would you do if you wrecked the car you drove to the track in" his face was a picture when I said "I'd call the RAC, they will cover you for track day cars". Whilst I appreciate your philosphy and thoughts I would have thought being aggressive at a kit-car show to customers was not the best way to sell your product.
Caterham
I have always had the greatest respect for Caterham and have often thought about owning one of these fine machines. However the reaction I got to "is there a bike engined version" was incredable. It was as if I was something he'd trod in. He went on that a car engine was far more practical and that the bike engine wasn't suitable for the car etc. Now whilst I'm sure he had some valid points to think about, his completely poo poo attitude to the concept made him look very ill-informed and unprofessional. Esp considering that one of their suppliers do a bike engined version (and it did particulaly well in Evo I recall). He appeared very stuck in his ways without looking to the future. Slagging off your competition in an almost arogant fashion is not a good way to sell cars.
Best Stand/Customer reaction
DAX cars, The chap couldn't have enough time for us. He was excellent, I asked questions about the SVA and he told me in detail how potential problems could be solved. He was honest about areas of unrealibility they had experienced and how they had gone about solving the problems. It was clear he was an expert in his field and struck me as the kind of person that would spend time with you over the phone if you hit a tricky part of the build. The cars they showed were superb and the standard of engineering looked excellent. I was extremely impressed with this company and they now are very high on the list of "possible future projects"
Biggest disappointment
MK engineering. I've now seen this car in the flesh and I'm afraid I wasn't that impressed. I have been very interested in this car but the project that was presented at the show looked very rough. The chain drive system looks very fragile IMHO and the quality of the bodywork/fit wasn't good. I realise that this is their development car but the company was saying that they would have the car in SVA compliant form and it was clear that the car was no where near. The advertising material cleverly showed the rear of the car with a number plate and lights etc. but the front has no lights and parts of the bodywork had gaps/misfit by 10mm!! On the positive side the chassis itself looked excellent and I wouldn't hesitate in buying their locost chassis. BUT IMHO The MK project is still a long way off being complete and I personally wouldn't have shown it yet.
Honourable mentions
Avian (appologies if spelt wrong), a 2CV based 3 wheeler. My father really liked these and the people showing were customers. Again friendly, keen to answer questions, and lovely cars.
Marlin, beutiful cars and friendly people again not afraid to answer questions about the SVA and methods of solving the problems.
There you go, my "review of the show". Did any of you lot go and what did you think.
Smeagol
>>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 16th September 11:56
Well, I would have to agree with the above, i had a gret time at Donnington - only made it to the Saturday but apart from the stands I was amazed by the car park and how friendly the owners were!!
I am a little biased towards the event becuase I ended up spending £5500 and will be taking delivery of my second hand Fisher Fury that was on the stand tomorrow! - wahoo!!
My real dissapointment was seng the new Lambo replica close up - attention to detail was great but the standard of finish was a little suspect and same with the Ferarri replicas - Why? oh well, thata my few pence worth!
Off to go and dream about my lovley new car - no rain allowed!
Gareth
I am a little biased towards the event becuase I ended up spending £5500 and will be taking delivery of my second hand Fisher Fury that was on the stand tomorrow! - wahoo!!
My real dissapointment was seng the new Lambo replica close up - attention to detail was great but the standard of finish was a little suspect and same with the Ferarri replicas - Why? oh well, thata my few pence worth!
Off to go and dream about my lovley new car - no rain allowed!
Gareth
Went on the Sunday, quite early. TBH I was slightly disappointed, plenty of stands of cars and manufacturers (great if you're thinking of building/buying) but a bit thin on the trade/parts stands (IMO).
Watching people bomb round the track was interesting (some serious nutters out there !) though was a painful reminder of the pile of bits that I call an engine waiting for me at home.
Glad I turned up early ..... there was a monster Q trying to get in, later on ....
Watching people bomb round the track was interesting (some serious nutters out there !) though was a painful reminder of the pile of bits that I call an engine waiting for me at home.
Glad I turned up early ..... there was a monster Q trying to get in, later on ....
What an excellent show.
It was my first time here and I went both days, Saturday to have a good look around, Sunday to play on the track in my can-am.
I was also impressed with the Dax display/team, who spent a not inconsiderable amount of time answering my questions.
There were also a few concepts that looked interesting that I hope make it into production (good luck students!
)
Also Liked the Ultima stand! but I'm biased!
Track was safer than I thought it would be, with 20mins being plenty of time to have fun safely, also thought it was well organised.
Well done to those very well driven cars who were patient enough to let us less experienced drivers get out of the way.
It was my first time here and I went both days, Saturday to have a good look around, Sunday to play on the track in my can-am.
I was also impressed with the Dax display/team, who spent a not inconsiderable amount of time answering my questions.
There were also a few concepts that looked interesting that I hope make it into production (good luck students!
) Also Liked the Ultima stand! but I'm biased!
Track was safer than I thought it would be, with 20mins being plenty of time to have fun safely, also thought it was well organised.
Well done to those very well driven cars who were patient enough to let us less experienced drivers get out of the way.
I have to agree. We went for both days, but unfortunately had to leave the Westie because of the distance. The Sunday was excellent and it was great to see the more extreme cars (Dax Haybusa Turbo, V8 Seven's etc) out on track. We had a great time & ended up the weekend with a few laps in an Ultima GTR demonstrator. Very nice.
PS. We are now looking to hire an Ultima for our wedding day (28/9/2002 - 80 miles around Central London - so not to much wear & tear!) - £600 hire + £15k deposit on offer - so if anyone's got one they would like to lend us....get in touch!
PS. We are now looking to hire an Ultima for our wedding day (28/9/2002 - 80 miles around Central London - so not to much wear & tear!) - £600 hire + £15k deposit on offer - so if anyone's got one they would like to lend us....get in touch!
Okay heres the question. I couldn't make the Sunday (BSB at Mallory) I as you have guessed, loved the Dax Hybussa, did anyone get a ride or see it on track, was it as awesome as I imagine? Did dax also run the "standard" unturboed BEC? Has anybody been in the bike engined westi (the gear change system looked excellent)? Both peeked my interest. (yes eating humble pie over my engine should be same end of drive wheels opinion, I was wrong)
Would like peoples opnion on these superb machines.
Would like peoples opnion on these superb machines.
Thanks Joost may take you up on that. I was really looking for just impressions of what the car was like. ie was there any worrying parts you thought may be potential problems. Was the cars handling, acceleration, and most importantly breaking as good as expected. etc. Just a sort of what impressed you and what didn't that kind of thing.
Excuse my English.
The car is superb!
The handlin is OK when I compare it with my Caterham Dedion with all the right bits. I came back from Radical after testing their SR3.
The Dax is well sorted.
It has only one (very nice problem) POWER!!!!!!!!!!
It's so docile until it come on boost.
It looses traction, you hear the waste gate, shift.
And then it starts all over again.
You have no idea what gear you 're in!
Bloody FAST!!!!! It will scare it's driver every time without loosing the drivebility.
The only worry ist the reliability I gues.
But the power ist terrific much better then a Cosworth Turbo engine in a seven.
The car is superb!
The handlin is OK when I compare it with my Caterham Dedion with all the right bits. I came back from Radical after testing their SR3.
The Dax is well sorted.
It has only one (very nice problem) POWER!!!!!!!!!!
It's so docile until it come on boost.
It looses traction, you hear the waste gate, shift.
And then it starts all over again.
You have no idea what gear you 're in!
Bloody FAST!!!!! It will scare it's driver every time without loosing the drivebility.
The only worry ist the reliability I gues.
But the power ist terrific much better then a Cosworth Turbo engine in a seven.
quote:
Thanks Joost may take you up on that. I was really looking for just impressions of what the car was like. ie was there any worrying parts you thought may be potential problems. Was the cars handling, acceleration, and most importantly breaking as good as expected. etc. Just a sort of what impressed you and what didn't that kind of thing.
Many thanks, your English is excellent by the way. I was very impressed with the quality of the demonstrator at the show (but it was on the stand). So I'm glad your impression is that shown by their reviews in their information pack. Yes, DAX are very high on my list of possible future projects.
I agree about your comment about too much power. I would have thought a standard bike engine would be plenty good enough to scare youself with. Turbo-charging a bike engine could be a bad idea for reliability.
I agree about your comment about too much power. I would have thought a standard bike engine would be plenty good enough to scare youself with. Turbo-charging a bike engine could be a bad idea for reliability.
And the people from DJ are very nice and helpfull.
We visitted them without having a meeting and asked for a ride in the Turbo. They were preparing the car at that moment. They put it together quickly and we could have a ride. Don't understand me wrong the car is absolute driveable but acceleration is so fierc it will shock you.
We visitted them without having a meeting and asked for a ride in the Turbo. They were preparing the car at that moment. They put it together quickly and we could have a ride. Don't understand me wrong the car is absolute driveable but acceleration is so fierc it will shock you.
quote:
Many thanks, your English is excellent by the way. I was very impressed with the quality of the demonstrator at the show (but it was on the stand). So I'm glad your impression is that shown by their reviews in their information pack. Yes, DAX are very high on my list of possible future projects.
I agree about your comment about too much power. I would have thought a standard bike engine would be plenty good enough to scare youself with. Turbo-charging a bike engine could be a bad idea for reliability.
Hello Andy,
Don't get me wrong. I have a Westfield with Cosworth Turbo with 350bhp and 550Nm. I also have a Caterham with 200bhp. The Westfield in this configuration is absolutly not a trackdaytoy. The difference between off an on boost is the difference between 80 and 350bhp and this is is from 80 to 350bhp in 0.1 second.
If that happens in a corner, you can immagine what happens. My car weighs 650Kg (wet)and with this power and lag it's a monster. Believe me at 90mph if it comes on boost it looses traction sometimes and it steps aside 1 meter to the left or to the right or both sides.
It's a nice car to cruis but nothing for the track.
Believe me don't go the turbo-route for the track and if you want a turbo then take a hayabusa turbo.
The Dax Hayabusa Turbo is under 500Kg!
>> Edited by joost on Tuesday 17th September 17:46
Don't get me wrong. I have a Westfield with Cosworth Turbo with 350bhp and 550Nm. I also have a Caterham with 200bhp. The Westfield in this configuration is absolutly not a trackdaytoy. The difference between off an on boost is the difference between 80 and 350bhp and this is is from 80 to 350bhp in 0.1 second.
If that happens in a corner, you can immagine what happens. My car weighs 650Kg (wet)and with this power and lag it's a monster. Believe me at 90mph if it comes on boost it looses traction sometimes and it steps aside 1 meter to the left or to the right or both sides.
It's a nice car to cruis but nothing for the track.
Believe me don't go the turbo-route for the track and if you want a turbo then take a hayabusa turbo.
The Dax Hayabusa Turbo is under 500Kg!
quote:
Dax is currently the ONLY car left on my list for my track toy.
Quote
Planning a car the same as their Busa turbo but with a 350-400bhp cossie lump, target weight is 600kgs which seems acheivable with a bit of minimalisation.
Their Busa demo car weights 599kgs I am told!
>> Edited by joost on Tuesday 17th September 17:46
Apologies, typo, meant 499kgs!
Comming on and off boost shouldn't be a problem as when I have done track days I have stayed above 3500rpm all the time, and thus always on boost.
Busa engine would be to fragile for my needs (comute/track days), I have used my cossie with this engine for the last 7 years.
OK I have rebuilt it a few times but you get my drift!
My line of thought again returns to if a seven can take this much power and if I need a car with the engine above the driven wheels.... but thats a different string!
Comming on and off boost shouldn't be a problem as when I have done track days I have stayed above 3500rpm all the time, and thus always on boost.
Busa engine would be to fragile for my needs (comute/track days), I have used my cossie with this engine for the last 7 years.
OK I have rebuilt it a few times but you get my drift!
My line of thought again returns to if a seven can take this much power and if I need a car with the engine above the driven wheels.... but thats a different string!
The dax has no problem with the power.
If you keep the seven above 3500 rpm but your not on the gas it has no boost. But if you step on the gas and your above 3500 rpm you will have a shock an aditional 280bhp in a second.
It's not nice in a seven. Don't compare it with a normal cossie. A normal cossie with 350bhp is much closer to a Golf 1 Diesel then to an 7 Cossie Turbo with 350bhp.
Go and drive a seven cosworth you will see and you will not buy it believe me.
I have one but it will be the last.
>> Edited by joost on Tuesday 17th September 20:52
If you keep the seven above 3500 rpm but your not on the gas it has no boost. But if you step on the gas and your above 3500 rpm you will have a shock an aditional 280bhp in a second.
It's not nice in a seven. Don't compare it with a normal cossie. A normal cossie with 350bhp is much closer to a Golf 1 Diesel then to an 7 Cossie Turbo with 350bhp.
Go and drive a seven cosworth you will see and you will not buy it believe me.
I have one but it will be the last.
quote:
Apologies, typo, meant 499kgs!
Comming on and off boost shouldn't be a problem as when I have done track days I have stayed above 3500rpm all the time, and thus always on boost.
Busa engine would be to fragile for my needs (comute/track days), I have used my cossie with this engine for the last 7 years.
OK I have rebuilt it a few times but you get my drift!
My line of thought again returns to if a seven can take this much power and if I need a car with the engine above the driven wheels.... but thats a different string!
>> Edited by joost on Tuesday 17th September 20:52
Hi all
Just for information I own a butchers shop and have just had a phone call saying some-one was slagging martin of MK off on the internet.Fraid as an MK indy owner I have to disagree with some of your comments.If you had spoken to any of the lads on the stand they would have told you they were hoping to get the car SVA'd by donnington but had a bad batch of head lamp pods that weren't upto standard.the chain drive might look fragile but my son was taken out in the car as a present prior to going in the R.E.M.E and was most impressed 11500 RPM.if you looked carefully at the drive set up you would have noticed the split rear sprocket which enables quickchanges of gearing.any way enough where all entitled to our opinion and really what the F~## do you want for 3500 quid.
tony
Just for information I own a butchers shop and have just had a phone call saying some-one was slagging martin of MK off on the internet.Fraid as an MK indy owner I have to disagree with some of your comments.If you had spoken to any of the lads on the stand they would have told you they were hoping to get the car SVA'd by donnington but had a bad batch of head lamp pods that weren't upto standard.the chain drive might look fragile but my son was taken out in the car as a present prior to going in the R.E.M.E and was most impressed 11500 RPM.if you looked carefully at the drive set up you would have noticed the split rear sprocket which enables quickchanges of gearing.any way enough where all entitled to our opinion and really what the F~## do you want for 3500 quid.
tony
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