Building a Racecar to be Road Legal
Discussion
This is a long long way down the line but as I've started researching and designing I thought I'd see if this can be clarified.
I intend on building what is in effect a replica of one of Alfa Romeo's 155 V6 Ti DTM/ITC touring cars. As a minimum the car will be RWD (for reasons of cost and simplicity), although 4WD will be considered if feasible.
Of course, I could obtain a 155 Q4 as a donor car but as they're so rare and expensive in comparison to a FWD chassis, a conversion is likely.
To enable the conversion to take place the floor pan needs to be modified to create a transmission tunnel. There may well be a few other bits here and there, but relatively minor in comparison. There will also be new suspension mounting points front and rear, which would be incorporated into new subframes of a spaceframe construction in tubular steel.
Pretty much the only item on the car that will come from an original 155 will be the bare chassis. Everything else will either be bespoke, new or altered from another vehicle. The engine will be a modified 3.2 V6 from an Alfa GTA with well over 400bhp, maybe more than 500bhp if achievable. I already own a 147 GTA so you can see the thinking behind the engine choice as well as it needing to be a V6 anyway.
Question is, would this car end up on a Q plate if registered and how difficult would it be to obtain an IVA test certificate with this type of build? Let alone be something likely to ever see the road due to what it is.
Just after some opinions really.
Happy to post more details on the car for those interested too.
I intend on building what is in effect a replica of one of Alfa Romeo's 155 V6 Ti DTM/ITC touring cars. As a minimum the car will be RWD (for reasons of cost and simplicity), although 4WD will be considered if feasible.
Of course, I could obtain a 155 Q4 as a donor car but as they're so rare and expensive in comparison to a FWD chassis, a conversion is likely.
To enable the conversion to take place the floor pan needs to be modified to create a transmission tunnel. There may well be a few other bits here and there, but relatively minor in comparison. There will also be new suspension mounting points front and rear, which would be incorporated into new subframes of a spaceframe construction in tubular steel.
Pretty much the only item on the car that will come from an original 155 will be the bare chassis. Everything else will either be bespoke, new or altered from another vehicle. The engine will be a modified 3.2 V6 from an Alfa GTA with well over 400bhp, maybe more than 500bhp if achievable. I already own a 147 GTA so you can see the thinking behind the engine choice as well as it needing to be a V6 anyway.
Question is, would this car end up on a Q plate if registered and how difficult would it be to obtain an IVA test certificate with this type of build? Let alone be something likely to ever see the road due to what it is.
Just after some opinions really.
Happy to post more details on the car for those interested too.
Edited by Michael Woolford on Thursday 21st December 20:47
Any modification to the floor pan will render it a Q plate car and need full IVA.
However plenty of people do such conversions and dont bother telling DVLA or having an IVA and get away with it. However DVLA and MOT stations are clamping down on it. So I would recommend doing it properly.
However plenty of people do such conversions and dont bother telling DVLA or having an IVA and get away with it. However DVLA and MOT stations are clamping down on it. So I would recommend doing it properly.
Psycho Warren said:
Any modification to the floor pan will render it a Q plate car and need full IVA.
Not so: IVA and Q plate are separate things.Whether it is given a Q plate depends on a points system of what components are either new or from a single donor vehicle. See DVLA link here
Though from the OP's description of his intentions, it is difficult to see how he could avoid a Q-plate in this instance.
I say this quite often but no one ever has an answer.
If modifying a chassis means any car that has such done to it then has to go on a q plate, then why is it not that every rally car ever built has one?
Even the factory built cars are nothing like the original type approved version but they all have regular registration plates!
You could even say that attaching a tow bar or fitting a strut brace is modifying a chassis!
Its one of those grey murky rules that very few follow, never seen any of the toolroom copies of classics on a q either such as SWB 250 based on a GTE donor, Eagle E Type, Singer 911 etc etc
I would say crack on and good luck to you, DVLA have even backed down on the modified historics needing an mot now and that could have potentially been a catch all for any such modified car to end up on the dreaded q
If modifying a chassis means any car that has such done to it then has to go on a q plate, then why is it not that every rally car ever built has one?
Even the factory built cars are nothing like the original type approved version but they all have regular registration plates!
You could even say that attaching a tow bar or fitting a strut brace is modifying a chassis!
Its one of those grey murky rules that very few follow, never seen any of the toolroom copies of classics on a q either such as SWB 250 based on a GTE donor, Eagle E Type, Singer 911 etc etc
I would say crack on and good luck to you, DVLA have even backed down on the modified historics needing an mot now and that could have potentially been a catch all for any such modified car to end up on the dreaded q
Edited by PAUL500 on Friday 12th January 23:24
PAUL500 said:
I say this quite often but no one ever has an answer.
If modifying a chassis means any car that has such done to it then has to go on a q plate, then why is it not that every rally car ever built has one?
Even the factory built cars are nothing like the original type approved version but they all have regular registration plates!
Because whether it gets a Q-registration is nothing to do with Type Approval: it simply indicates 'indeterminate year of manufacture'.If modifying a chassis means any car that has such done to it then has to go on a q plate, then why is it not that every rally car ever built has one?
Even the factory built cars are nothing like the original type approved version but they all have regular registration plates!
You can modify a chassis/bodyshell as much as you like (or, indeed, fabricate an entirely new design) and get an age-related plate:
- If the chassis/bodyshell and sufficient other components are new, it will get a new registration.
- If the chassis/bodyshell is not new, but sufficient components are from a single donor to give it, in the opinion of the authorities (and in accordance with the 'points rules') a determinate year of manufacture, then it will be given an age related plate for that year.
Equus said:
PAUL500 said:
I say this quite often but no one ever has an answer.
If modifying a chassis means any car that has such done to it then has to go on a q plate, then why is it not that every rally car ever built has one?
Even the factory built cars are nothing like the original type approved version but they all have regular registration plates!
Because whether it gets a Q-registration is nothing to do with Type Approval: it simply indicates 'indeterminate year of manufacture'.If modifying a chassis means any car that has such done to it then has to go on a q plate, then why is it not that every rally car ever built has one?
Even the factory built cars are nothing like the original type approved version but they all have regular registration plates!
You can modify a chassis/bodyshell as much as you like (or, indeed, fabricate an entirely new design) and get an age-related plate:
- If the chassis/bodyshell and sufficient other components are new, it will get a new registration.
- If the chassis/bodyshell is not new, but sufficient components are from a single donor to give it, in the opinion of the authorities (and in accordance with the 'points rules') a determinate year of manufacture, then it will be given an age related plate for that year.
PAUL500 said:
Yes but the minute you actually alter the original type of chassis all the above falls by the wayside and you have to have an IVA etc is my understanding?
Your understanding is wrong. At the risk of becoming monotonous by repetition, assignment of a Q-plate and the need for IVA are entirely different and unrelated things.To gain a radically altered registration (or any re registration in fact) the chassis must be unmodified in order to pick up the points to meet the min number needed to retain the donor ID.
It goes on to say if you cannot get to 8 points (which you cannot without using an unaltered chassis) then you end up with a q plate, seems very clear to me
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
It goes on to say if you cannot get to 8 points (which you cannot without using an unaltered chassis) then you end up with a q plate, seems very clear to me
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
Edited by PAUL500 on Saturday 20th January 13:38
Your link is for 'radically altered vehicles'. By definition, it applies to vehicles that have existed previously, then been modified:
"Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but aren’t kit conversions."
The link you need to be reading is this one
So long you have proof that chassis or monocoque body/chassis unit is new, not reconditioned, you can modify it before IVA and - if all other parts are new (with the exception of one, which is allowed to be reconditioned to as-new standard), it will be assigned a current registration.
There is also the definition of kit converted vehicles:
"A kit-converted vehicle has had:
* a kit of new parts added to an existing vehicle, or
* old parts added to a new kit
The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit."
"You can apply for an age-related number if you can prove you’ve used 2 original major parts along with:
* a new monocoque bodyshell, chassis or frame from a specialist kit manufacturer
* an altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame from the original vehicle"
"Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but aren’t kit conversions."
The link you need to be reading is this one
So long you have proof that chassis or monocoque body/chassis unit is new, not reconditioned, you can modify it before IVA and - if all other parts are new (with the exception of one, which is allowed to be reconditioned to as-new standard), it will be assigned a current registration.
There is also the definition of kit converted vehicles:
"A kit-converted vehicle has had:
* a kit of new parts added to an existing vehicle, or
* old parts added to a new kit
The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit."
"You can apply for an age-related number if you can prove you’ve used 2 original major parts along with:
* a new monocoque bodyshell, chassis or frame from a specialist kit manufacturer
* an altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame from the original vehicle"
As I said, under each type of registration, not just radically altered, the chassis must be new and not altered to retain the donor cars ID.
In the kit converted heading It says the kit you are building must be type approved and you have to supply build plans, so any mods to the type approved chassis prior to IVA would go against both requirements to be registered under that category. Furthermore its V5 will list it as a kit car not the original car, so in the case of brand new rally cars they should not be registered as the make/ model they purport to be.
Then in the kit of parts section, all you get if you alter the chassis is an age related plate, not the ID of the donor car.
SO going back to the OP question, as long as he is happy to call it a Carlos Fandango Mk1 or whatever then he should be ok, but in relation to mine regarding rally cars, Singers etc, once modified those cars should never have a V5 listing them as either the make or model of the donor car they are actually identified as.
Interesting question is when does a car cross the boundary between a kit of parts classification (using a modified chassis) so as to be able to get an age related plate, to a radically altered one? where you end up with a q plate instead.
In the kit converted heading It says the kit you are building must be type approved and you have to supply build plans, so any mods to the type approved chassis prior to IVA would go against both requirements to be registered under that category. Furthermore its V5 will list it as a kit car not the original car, so in the case of brand new rally cars they should not be registered as the make/ model they purport to be.
Then in the kit of parts section, all you get if you alter the chassis is an age related plate, not the ID of the donor car.
SO going back to the OP question, as long as he is happy to call it a Carlos Fandango Mk1 or whatever then he should be ok, but in relation to mine regarding rally cars, Singers etc, once modified those cars should never have a V5 listing them as either the make or model of the donor car they are actually identified as.
Interesting question is when does a car cross the boundary between a kit of parts classification (using a modified chassis) so as to be able to get an age related plate, to a radically altered one? where you end up with a q plate instead.
Edited by PAUL500 on Saturday 20th January 17:35
PAUL500 said:
As I said, under each type of registration, not just radically altered, the chassis must be new and not altered to retain the donor cars ID.
Indeed. But not to retain an age-related registration, and thus avoid a Q-plate.PAUL500 said:
In the kit converted heading It says the kit you are building must be type approved
Absolutely, but if you then click the link to details on 'the relevant type approval', you will see that the IVA test meets that definition.PAUL500 said:
... so in the case of brand new rally cars they should not be registered as the make/ model they purport to be.
Why not? If they are a kit of homologation parts supplied by (say) Ford, what could you possibly register them as, except a Ford?PAUL500 said:
Interesting question is when does a car cross the boundary between a kit of parts classification (using a modified chassis) so as to be able to get an age related plate, to a radically altered one? where you end up with a q plate instead.
As with all bureaucracy, it's largely a matter of telling the authorities what they want to hear, in the way they want to hear it.If you're congenitally stupid, you will provide the paperwork in such a way that you are awarded a Q-plate. If you're not, you wont.
CrutyRammers said:
On the engine side though, you'll have to meet emissions regs, and you'll not get a highly tuned race engine through them. And Even assuming that "well over 400bhp" is possible, it would be a total dog to live with on the road.
If you go through the IVA process then the emissions requirement is determined by the engine age, pre 1995 and no cat required
Q plate smoke test only
There are many times when a Q plate is better than a new Reg or age related
A pulse racecar was put on the road on an age related plate. So yes it can be done.
Slight modifications to the floor I believe as well. As has been mentioned the points system is what counted towards the age relate plate being given out. And all the components were from the same donor so easily met it.
I don't think make a floor plan wider is that bit of a change to most chassis. Shortening / lengthening etc... is where my head would be thinking.
Slight modifications to the floor I believe as well. As has been mentioned the points system is what counted towards the age relate plate being given out. And all the components were from the same donor so easily met it.
I don't think make a floor plan wider is that bit of a change to most chassis. Shortening / lengthening etc... is where my head would be thinking.
PaulKemp said:
CrutyRammers said:
On the engine side though, you'll have to meet emissions regs, and you'll not get a highly tuned race engine through them. And Even assuming that "well over 400bhp" is possible, it would be a total dog to live with on the road.
If you go through the IVA process then the emissions requirement is determined by the engine age, pre 1995 and no cat required
Q plate smoke test only
There are many times when a Q plate is better than a new Reg or age related
For IVA you will have to prove the age of the engine either with an old V5 or a letter from the engine manufacturer saying when the engine was built. From that info they will emission test.
Steve
Equus said:
Your link is for 'radically altered vehicles'. By definition, it applies to vehicles that have existed previously, then been modified:
"Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but aren’t kit conversions."
The link you need to be reading is this one
So long you have proof that chassis or monocoque body/chassis unit is new, not reconditioned, you can modify it before IVA and - if all other parts are new (with the exception of one, which is allowed to be reconditioned to as-new standard), it will be assigned a current registration.
There is also the definition of kit converted vehicles:
"A kit-converted vehicle has had:
* a kit of new parts added to an existing vehicle, or
* old parts added to a new kit
The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit."
"You can apply for an age-related number if you can prove you’ve used 2 original major parts along with:
* a new monocoque bodyshell, chassis or frame from a specialist kit manufacturer
* an altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame from the original vehicle"
This advise is incorrect, kit-built vehicles are only recognised as such if the kit of parts to convert an existing vehicle, or the kit vehicle into which the used parts are being built into, are already Type Approved."Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but aren’t kit conversions."
The link you need to be reading is this one
So long you have proof that chassis or monocoque body/chassis unit is new, not reconditioned, you can modify it before IVA and - if all other parts are new (with the exception of one, which is allowed to be reconditioned to as-new standard), it will be assigned a current registration.
There is also the definition of kit converted vehicles:
"A kit-converted vehicle has had:
* a kit of new parts added to an existing vehicle, or
* old parts added to a new kit
The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit."
"You can apply for an age-related number if you can prove you’ve used 2 original major parts along with:
* a new monocoque bodyshell, chassis or frame from a specialist kit manufacturer
* an altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame from the original vehicle"
It cannot be used for a 'home-build' where an existing vehicle is converted using a selection of new or used off-the-shelf parts.
Edited by shakotan on Thursday 15th February 08:52
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