newbie - buying a Pilgrim
Discussion
Is this a good idea? A colleague of mine has fallen in love with the idea of buying an '81 Sumo he has seen advertised. Pinto 2.0 motor (this would be 4cyl?) and, presumably, ford running gear (?). I must admit this looks the dogs bx for what he needs it for - a weekend pose, but what do we look for when buying? I would imagine tired donor mechanicals are the main headache but any general advice greatly appreciated (I am a kit virgin - well almost. I once had the living s**t scared out of me in a mates dutton pheaton 
).
).Can't see it being an '81 as Pilgrim didn't start making them until late 80s. Sure it's not '91?
Sounds like probably early version based on Ford Cortina.
As you say, state of mechanical components is main thing to check, along with general state of car and standard of build.
Problem with Sumos being a 'cheap Cobra' is that some are done so 'on the cheap' with too small wheels etc. that the end result is bloody awful.
There were also some design and manufacturing faults in the early cars, including chassis flex, poor body fitting and various brackets being wrongly made or positioned so things didn't fit. I know because I built one...
OK, didn't have the power or sound of a V8, but still provided a lot of enjoyable driving, especially during summer.
Sounds like probably early version based on Ford Cortina.
As you say, state of mechanical components is main thing to check, along with general state of car and standard of build.
Problem with Sumos being a 'cheap Cobra' is that some are done so 'on the cheap' with too small wheels etc. that the end result is bloody awful.
There were also some design and manufacturing faults in the early cars, including chassis flex, poor body fitting and various brackets being wrongly made or positioned so things didn't fit. I know because I built one...
OK, didn't have the power or sound of a V8, but still provided a lot of enjoyable driving, especially during summer.
adove said:
Is this a good idea? A colleague of mine has fallen in love with the idea of buying an '81 Sumo he has seen advertised. Pinto 2.0 motor (this would be 4cyl?) and, presumably, ford running gear (?). I must admit this looks the dogs bx for what he needs it for - a weekend pose, but what do we look for when buying? I would imagine tired donor mechanicals are the main headache but any general advice greatly appreciated (I am a kit virgin - well almost. I once had the living s**t scared out of me in a mates dutton pheaton
Why not ask Den Tanner, MD of "Kit Car" magazine, as he owned the company at the time and I feel sure would give you unbiased advice , warts 'n all, but my advice would be steer well clear of Pinto engined Cobras, (They are OK in Westfields and Tigers etc), look for a nice Rover V8 engined example, if only for the sound....
fast jenn said:
Why not ask Den Tanner, MD of "Kit Car" magazine, as he owned the company at the time and I feel sure would give you unbiased advice , warts 'n all,
I think not as the posts on here can prove!!!
Den will give you unbiased advice regarding the Pilgrim Sumo!
Thanks for all this chaps (sorry jenn)
Its on an X plate so assumed it was early 80's - that will be the donor car I suppose
Fully got the point about V8 being the be-all & end-all (I am currently fighting the urge to swap the trusty chimaera for a t350 and one of the things holding me back, apart from the odd £15k, is losing the RV8) BUT this car is for a 20 year old lad and when all is said & done a 4 pot is the only route he has into any kind of characterful motoring.He thought it a would be a good compromise. So apart from V8 snobbery is this Pinto engine a dog or not then? It looks like its fairly widely used in kit circles so I thought it should be easy to tune/maintain?
As the car is already built most of the fit problems should be sorted but we will have a close look at the quality of finish anyway and have a good old roundabout flinging chassis twisting test drive to see what gives (literally).
Its on an X plate so assumed it was early 80's - that will be the donor car I suppose
Fully got the point about V8 being the be-all & end-all (I am currently fighting the urge to swap the trusty chimaera for a t350 and one of the things holding me back, apart from the odd £15k, is losing the RV8) BUT this car is for a 20 year old lad and when all is said & done a 4 pot is the only route he has into any kind of characterful motoring.He thought it a would be a good compromise. So apart from V8 snobbery is this Pinto engine a dog or not then? It looks like its fairly widely used in kit circles so I thought it should be easy to tune/maintain?
As the car is already built most of the fit problems should be sorted but we will have a close look at the quality of finish anyway and have a good old roundabout flinging chassis twisting test drive to see what gives (literally).
adove said:
Thanks for all this chaps (sorry jenn)
Its on an X plate so assumed it was early 80's - that will be the donor car I suppose
Fully got the point about V8 being the be-all & end-all (I am currently fighting the urge to swap the trusty chimaera for a t350 and one of the things holding me back, apart from the odd £15k, is losing the RV8) BUT this car is for a 20 year old lad and when all is said & done a 4 pot is the only route he has into any kind of characterful motoring.He thought it a would be a good compromise. So apart from V8 snobbery is this Pinto engine a dog or not then? It looks like its fairly widely used in kit circles so I thought it should be easy to tune/maintain?
As the car is already built most of the fit problems should be sorted but we will have a close look at the quality of finish anyway and have a good old roundabout flinging chassis twisting test drive to see what gives (literally).
Now't wrong with Pinto engines, they are superb reliable workhorses, I have had three Capris, one sierra, two Granada's, one Westfield and a Tiger all with 2 litre Pintos covering well over half a million miles since 1976 without ONE single problem or breakdown.......
Very important though, the oil AND filter MUST be changed every 10,000 miles otherwise the spray bar can clog up, and result in premature wear of the overhead camshaft,
but even if this DOES happen, they are easy and cheap to replace....... Just don't like Pinto's in Cobras personally, but given his age, what the hell, go for it.....(You just might find it a bit difficult to sell on)
How about a compromise - Cologne V6, 2.3 to 2.9litre versions.
Worked for me when I built my Sumo way back when. Was 21 at the time so insurance was an issue but ended up costing £300. It was 1995 though
Sort of half way house really, get a pretty decent sound from working side pipes and six cylinders seems more respectable than 4 for this sort of wagon.
John
Worked for me when I built my Sumo way back when. Was 21 at the time so insurance was an issue but ended up costing £300. It was 1995 though
Sort of half way house really, get a pretty decent sound from working side pipes and six cylinders seems more respectable than 4 for this sort of wagon. John
adove said:
Its on an X plate so assumed it was early 80's - that will be the donor car I suppose
Figured that might be the case after posting.
Thing to do is ask if it's a Mk1, Mk2 or Mk3 Sumo.
Mine was a Mk1, and I think all the problems I mentioned were sorted with the Mk2. You can tell the Mk2 and 3 because the bulkhead is sheet metal and part of the chassis rather than GRP and part of the body as on Mk 1.
Taking the lads age into account, I think we can forgive the 4 pot motor 
The pinto is a tough old unit. You don't need to rev the nuts off it and it should stay loyal. Cheap as a cheap thing to run and hopefully insure. The fuel consumption may supprise him though. I was not getting good mileage from my Tiger. I did tend to rag the ar$e of it most journeys though.
Paul.B
The pinto is a tough old unit. You don't need to rev the nuts off it and it should stay loyal. Cheap as a cheap thing to run and hopefully insure. The fuel consumption may supprise him though. I was not getting good mileage from my Tiger. I did tend to rag the ar$e of it most journeys though.
Paul.B
grahambell said:
You can tell the Mk2 and 3 because the bulkhead is sheet metal and part of the chassis rather than GRP and part of the body as on Mk 1.
Well it looks like I need to take my big magnet as well as my biggles helmet for this test drive. Wish me look and I will report back after the weekend; I'm sure there will be a few other issues to resolve once we have seen this motor, which by the way, in the pics I have seen looks an EXTREMELY pretty little thing. Am I beggining to get a bit envious....
Picked up this email this morning.
Unbiased, I think
kitcarman said:
Thanks for your supportive (and dare I say accurate) remark.
Please let adove know that 1981 age probably relates to the age of the donor; not the kit. The first Sumo kit was made in 1989.
I think Graham Bell’s cautionary comments aren’t relevant and are over-stated for the following reasons:-
The chassis twist ‘problem’ was only evident on the Mk1 version which only represented fewer than 100 out of a total 3000 Sumo’s made. Furthermore, even these were quite acceptable by the standards of the late 1980’s. The Mk2 (launched in 1990) and Mk3 (launched in 1993) have much stiffer chassis and that’s one of the reasons why the Sumo went on to become one of the “10 kits which changed the history of kit cars” – Peter Filby, Which Kit, Feb 1998.
The comment concerning accuracy of fit would a) only be relevant to the person building it, b) is only true of those first Mk1 versions anyway and, in any event, c) most kit cars of the 1980’s suffered similar problems.
If anyone wants to ask more – you know where I am. I’m imprisoned on the dark side of the moon awaiting a parole board hearing. Perhaps somebody could remind Ted (bless him; he’s probably forgotten me but hopefully not deliberately so).
Den Tanner. MD of Kitcars Intl. Ltd. Publisher of Kit Car and Cobra magazines.
Unbiased, I think
Den also had this to say about Pinto engined Sumo's...
"No offence was taken to your V8 remark. The fact is that I've seen many
a decent 'safe' and reliable 4 cylinder Sumo converted into a dangerous
and fragile V8 - simply for a different exhaust noise. For me, a 2000cc
Sumo has more power than I can cope with - comparable performance to a
tuned RS2000."
"No offence was taken to your V8 remark. The fact is that I've seen many
a decent 'safe' and reliable 4 cylinder Sumo converted into a dangerous
and fragile V8 - simply for a different exhaust noise. For me, a 2000cc
Sumo has more power than I can cope with - comparable performance to a
tuned RS2000."
Now then.
We are looking at a 2002 built car. Build cost approx £10k - lots of shiny bits, clean as a whistle throughout. Well finished interior. Wheels look skinnier than one would like, but very appropriate for stock Ford engine/transmission. Only issue is ropey looking side pipe sticking out like a sore thumb - looks like it needs extending (therefore affecting tune of motor??) with a shiny stainless steel heat shielded affair that is the norm (aftermarket 'pipe supplier recommendations gratefully received).
What do you guys reckon it's worth then? As a newcomer to these things, a bit of research on ebay and the classifieds shows anything from £2k to £22k is the going rate for a kit cobra !!!! Anyone got a yardstick to measure this one by? Remember its a 2.0 4pot. Cheers
Andy
We are looking at a 2002 built car. Build cost approx £10k - lots of shiny bits, clean as a whistle throughout. Well finished interior. Wheels look skinnier than one would like, but very appropriate for stock Ford engine/transmission. Only issue is ropey looking side pipe sticking out like a sore thumb - looks like it needs extending (therefore affecting tune of motor??) with a shiny stainless steel heat shielded affair that is the norm (aftermarket 'pipe supplier recommendations gratefully received).
What do you guys reckon it's worth then? As a newcomer to these things, a bit of research on ebay and the classifieds shows anything from £2k to £22k is the going rate for a kit cobra !!!! Anyone got a yardstick to measure this one by? Remember its a 2.0 4pot. Cheers
Andy
adove said:
Now then.
We are looking at a 2002 built car. Build cost approx £10k - lots of shiny bits, clean as a whistle throughout. Well finished interior. Wheels look skinnier than one would like, but very appropriate for stock Ford engine/transmission. Only issue is ropey looking side pipe sticking out like a sore thumb - looks like it needs extending (therefore affecting tune of motor??) with a shiny stainless steel heat shielded affair that is the norm (aftermarket 'pipe supplier recommendations gratefully received).
What do you guys reckon it's worth then? As a newcomer to these things, a bit of research on ebay and the classifieds shows anything from £2k to £22k is the going rate for a kit cobra !!!! Anyone got a yardstick to measure this one by? Remember its a 2.0 4pot. Cheers
Andy
£7000/£8000.....Pay no more.........
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