Problems with DVLA
Discussion
I don't post on PH very often
I wonder if you knowledgeable guy can help.
I am into VW Scirocco's (MK1 & 2) I own a rare Bieber convertible. Back in the day you could take your car to the Bieber factory in Germany where they would turn it into a Scirocco convertible. Or you could buy a kit of parts and ether DIY or send it to body shop.
Last year though some friends in the Netherlands, I managed to obtain a brand new old stock Bieber kit. I had the car professionally converted. The kit basically contains re- enforcing bars, rear fiberglass section with boot lid and hood. The car retains its original engine, transmission, axles, steering, at least 70% of the body remains.
I filled in the V5 to say it was now a convertible. After being sent 2 forms to fill in, last week i revived a notification that the car was to be taken off the road. I cannot use it until it has a Q plate and a IVA!! They have given me a new chassis number.
i wrote to them immediately
I pointed out to them that I already own a Scirocco convertible, on its original reg plates. On the basis of the DLVLA's own points system it scores 9
Any ideas if the start getting stroppy again?
I wonder if you knowledgeable guy can help.
I am into VW Scirocco's (MK1 & 2) I own a rare Bieber convertible. Back in the day you could take your car to the Bieber factory in Germany where they would turn it into a Scirocco convertible. Or you could buy a kit of parts and ether DIY or send it to body shop.
Last year though some friends in the Netherlands, I managed to obtain a brand new old stock Bieber kit. I had the car professionally converted. The kit basically contains re- enforcing bars, rear fiberglass section with boot lid and hood. The car retains its original engine, transmission, axles, steering, at least 70% of the body remains.
I filled in the V5 to say it was now a convertible. After being sent 2 forms to fill in, last week i revived a notification that the car was to be taken off the road. I cannot use it until it has a Q plate and a IVA!! They have given me a new chassis number.
i wrote to them immediately
I pointed out to them that I already own a Scirocco convertible, on its original reg plates. On the basis of the DLVLA's own points system it scores 9
Any ideas if the start getting stroppy again?
The points system isn't what they're on about here; it's how modified the original is. If you've changed the chassis, particularly around things like suspension mounting points, and / or various other "major modifications" then it becomes subject to IVA.
Whether or not it gets a q plate is then a different question, that's where the points come in.
Now that you've told them, I suspect that you have little choice but to IVA it.
Whether or not it gets a q plate is then a different question, that's where the points come in.
Now that you've told them, I suspect that you have little choice but to IVA it.
The trouble is, by cutting off the roof, you've massively changed the structure, whether it's reinforced by a commercial kit or something lashed up in a shed is irrelevant I'm afraid.
They would argue that because the structure has been altered so much it needs to be inspected & IVA is the process by which that happens. Unfortunately, a lot of production cars won't pass IVA (some, like the new Audis don't meet the basic construction & use regs) so you may have some further work on your hands.
They would argue that because the structure has been altered so much it needs to be inspected & IVA is the process by which that happens. Unfortunately, a lot of production cars won't pass IVA (some, like the new Audis don't meet the basic construction & use regs) so you may have some further work on your hands.
You are not going to like this, but your situation is basic stuff.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
Chassis altered means a whole world of trouble. Some stuff unsolvable.
Going off tangent re your case it amazes me that on a higher level, people are buying, as examples, Aston Martin DB4, DB5 and in some cases DB6 converted to Zagato/DB4 GT or from coupe to convertible. Zagato or GT is a shortened wheelbase and therefore a problem. Coupe to convertible same.
Applies to many other makes also.
Eight point system has been in place for decades.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
Chassis altered means a whole world of trouble. Some stuff unsolvable.
Going off tangent re your case it amazes me that on a higher level, people are buying, as examples, Aston Martin DB4, DB5 and in some cases DB6 converted to Zagato/DB4 GT or from coupe to convertible. Zagato or GT is a shortened wheelbase and therefore a problem. Coupe to convertible same.
Applies to many other makes also.
Eight point system has been in place for decades.
Edited by SDB660 on Thursday 29th June 07:24
SDB660 said:
You are not going to like this, but your situation is basic stuff.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
^ This.https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...
From that...
gov.uk said:
5 of these points must come from having the original ... unmodified ... monocoque bodyshell....
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You won’t be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
...
it has a ... altered ... monocoque bodyshell...
And what have you got? An altered monocoque. You've just chopped the top half off the original bodyshell.Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You won’t be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
...
it has a ... altered ... monocoque bodyshell...
When was your other car converted? Before 1998, when the points system came in?
Thanks for your replies
Just a couple of questions
Will the IVA be the same as say for a new kit car? Or will there be a difference as the car is a 1983 car. it has type approval etc. What i'm asking is will it be less strict?
Or should I cut my my losses and mount it in the garden and turn it into a Jacuzzi?
Just a couple of questions
Will the IVA be the same as say for a new kit car? Or will there be a difference as the car is a 1983 car. it has type approval etc. What i'm asking is will it be less strict?
Or should I cut my my losses and mount it in the garden and turn it into a Jacuzzi?
mrmender said:
Thanks for your replies
Just a couple of questions
Will the IVA be the same as say for a new kit car? Or will there be a difference as the car is a 1983 car. it has type approval etc. What i'm asking is will it be less strict?
Or should I cut my my losses and mount it in the garden and turn it into a Jacuzzi?
There is only one IVA (as far as we are concerned anyway). It had type approval, but that no longer applies as you've modified it. Download the iva manual and you'll get a sense of where any problems may lie. Just a couple of questions
Will the IVA be the same as say for a new kit car? Or will there be a difference as the car is a 1983 car. it has type approval etc. What i'm asking is will it be less strict?
Or should I cut my my losses and mount it in the garden and turn it into a Jacuzzi?
mrmender said:
Thanks for your replies
Just a couple of questions
Will the IVA be the same as say for a new kit car? Or will there be a difference as the car is a 1983 car. it has type approval etc. What i'm asking is will it be less strict?
Or should I cut my my losses and mount it in the garden and turn it into a Jacuzzi?
Asked question re your car with a person who knows his stuff re IVA. His view was read DVLA info, get the car through the test (he felt would not be too tricky as most stuff already done) and go and enjoy your car. Will have a Q plate though.Just a couple of questions
Will the IVA be the same as say for a new kit car? Or will there be a difference as the car is a 1983 car. it has type approval etc. What i'm asking is will it be less strict?
Or should I cut my my losses and mount it in the garden and turn it into a Jacuzzi?
mrmender said:
Thanks for your replies
Just a couple of questions
Will the IVA be the same as say for a new kit car? Or will there be a difference as the car is a 1983 car. it has type approval etc. What i'm asking is will it be less strict?
Or should I cut my my losses and mount it in the garden and turn it into a Jacuzzi?
IVA shouldn't be a huge issue for your car to pass, you can after all prove the origin of the engine to pass the emissions based on age of that instead of modern standards... the biggest thing is you can't avoid a Q plate I'm afraid.Just a couple of questions
Will the IVA be the same as say for a new kit car? Or will there be a difference as the car is a 1983 car. it has type approval etc. What i'm asking is will it be less strict?
Or should I cut my my losses and mount it in the garden and turn it into a Jacuzzi?
The rules have been in place for 30 plus years... so I wouldn't shout too loudly about your other car as they can also do exactly the same to that, you have effectively 'got away with it' for years but it subject to the exact same rule as your new machine.
Just to clarify, the DVLA point system is clear as mud but to retain an original registration of a car it MUST have an unmodified version of the original chassis (either repaired original or a brand new exact version of it) In your case the monocoque... also the points HAVE to include 5 for a chassis, you can't build the points from all the other components.
The other option is to have used a brand new chassis of your own choice and design and then fit all the components from your scirocco, the original car is then classified as scrapped and you can gain an age related plate based on the year of your scirocco.... bit of a faf but done regularly in the Kit car world.
Maybe the 'kit' you bought was a complete new chassis of a convertible design?
You would probably need to provide paperwork and present the car for inspection to go this route...
whatever happens, to run this car on the road you will have to pass IVA... its only the plate you are defining.
The other option is to have used a brand new chassis of your own choice and design and then fit all the components from your scirocco, the original car is then classified as scrapped and you can gain an age related plate based on the year of your scirocco.... bit of a faf but done regularly in the Kit car world.
Maybe the 'kit' you bought was a complete new chassis of a convertible design?
You would probably need to provide paperwork and present the car for inspection to go this route...
whatever happens, to run this car on the road you will have to pass IVA... its only the plate you are defining.
SDB660 said:
Asked question re your car with a person who knows his stuff re IVA. His view was read DVLA info, get the car through the test (he felt would not be too tricky as most stuff already done) and go and enjoy your car. Will have a Q plate though.
Many thanks for the info. And all your replies.Somebody says down load the DLVA manual! Yeah been studying it. Its not exactly light reading
Lots of things that I feel should not apply! For example, Im supposed to show details of the petrol tank and fuel lines. Its the tank that was fitted 34 years ago, by VW, fuel lines are newish,Also my car has no indicator side repeaters, that came in 1984 model year. I guess they will have to be fitted? Also no headrests on the back seat, The Scirocco never had them on the back seat. I guess I could delete the rear seat? (My other car has no rear seat)
What about this immobiliser thing? Is a locking steering lock good enough?
Due to work commitments i think my best course of action, would be to give the car to a specialist garage. They could then take it for the IVA Ive seen two on the internet. Any recommendations?
TooMany2cvs said:
And what have you got? An altered monocoque. You've just chopped the top half off the original bodyshell.
Hmm, interesting. I'd heard that the authorities were getting tougher on this. On balance, not a bad thing. But the definition of "radically altered" is not quite as black and white as all that. There is still quite a lot of judgement to be applied.
I'm struggling with all this at the moment with an E Type. I'm reversing its modification with a SBC and GM outbox and reinstating Jaguar running gear. Otherwise, it will be stock, apart from rewiring to a more modern (and safe) spec.
I think we can all see the argument for checking a conversion to a convertible at one extreme and, to be clear, I think it is good that DVLA wants to be assured of safety integrity.
How many classic restorations really do not radically alter the monocoque by the time you take into account the amount of new metal substituted (and thus joins/potential points of failure) into a typical 60s or 70s pile of rust?
If you need to replace the engine chassis rails, rebuild the bulkhead, the gearbox tunnel, inner and outer sills and resolve a rear end shunt in, say, an E Type, I do wonder at what point the DVLA might become interested.
But what if, to take the E Type example, someone retrofitted a Webasto sunroof - that fairly radically modifies (compromises?) the monocoque but I doubt anybody would think to tell the authorities let alone have it IVAd.
And if it is OK to put a sunroof in a monocoque car, why get funny about bashing out (but not removing) the gearbox tunnel to accommodate a different, more modern gearbox? I've heard of at least one person having trouble with aspect but others who have completely replaced the gearbox tunnel sailing through...
Of course, if things get too heavy with the DVLA, restorers are also going to be fearful of doing sensible safety upgrades for fear of being caught by the radically altered rule, at least until after their P&J is registered. At the moment adding to the monocoque seems OK, so drilling holes for seatbelts seems permissible but the word is "alteration" not "addition", so technically, this perfectly sensible addition, if accompanied by other modifications, could start to tickle the authorities' interest.
Although not the end of the world to be given a Q plate, it does, of course, have consequences for resale, especially abroad.
P
You are allowed to repair a chassis to its original specification, its when you modify it by cutting sections out etc... they have provided clarification statements over the years, things like, bulkhead modifications to fit larger engine, gutting tunnel to fit larger gearbox, cutting rear arches to fit wider wheels (although rolling has been mentioned as allowable) etc etc...
Of cause many old cars have a separate chassis to body, Beetle for example.... so you can cut one of those into a convertible without them asking questions.... more modern stuff like the scirocco (and my capri) are a monocoque and thus nothing is allowed to be cut up
I started my capri project with the intention of modifying the one I had, replacing panels etc... however heavy research showed that even fitting an X pack wide arch kits (thats sold loads for the car) is actually a big issue IF you get caught or questioned.... and as you have found out they have been tightening up their enforcement of this lately (rules have been in place for many decades but they just never enforced them).
As a result, my capri project has turned into me building an entire new car from scratch that looks similar to a Capri and will cost close to double what i had originally planned (I didn't want a Q plate).
Of cause many old cars have a separate chassis to body, Beetle for example.... so you can cut one of those into a convertible without them asking questions.... more modern stuff like the scirocco (and my capri) are a monocoque and thus nothing is allowed to be cut up
I started my capri project with the intention of modifying the one I had, replacing panels etc... however heavy research showed that even fitting an X pack wide arch kits (thats sold loads for the car) is actually a big issue IF you get caught or questioned.... and as you have found out they have been tightening up their enforcement of this lately (rules have been in place for many decades but they just never enforced them).
As a result, my capri project has turned into me building an entire new car from scratch that looks similar to a Capri and will cost close to double what i had originally planned (I didn't want a Q plate).
Not sure if this is current or not as can only see a date not a year, but this should apply https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconvert... i.e. it would need an IVA but could get an age related number plate rather than the original one?
nigeleyre said:
Not sure if this is current or not as can only see a date not a year, but this should apply https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/kitconvert... i.e. it would need an IVA but could get an age related number plate rather than the original one?
Nope.From that...
gov.uk said:
Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
You can apply to keep a kit converted vehicle’s original registration number if you can prove you’ve used 2 original major parts along with the original unmodified:
monocoque bodyshell (car or light van)
...and that's where we came in.You can apply to keep a kit converted vehicle’s original registration number if you can prove you’ve used 2 original major parts along with the original unmodified:
monocoque bodyshell (car or light van)
nigeleyre said:
True but looks like you could keep and age related registration not a Q plate as its a Kit Conversion but the monocoque has been modified.
Ah, sorry. Yes, missed that bit.nigeleyre said:
I thought the thread was suggesting there was no way he could get it on the road with the modified monocoque?
Oh, he can. The question is over IVA-and-Q. You're right, there's a good chance of IVA-and-age-related from that. But the original ID, without an IVA? Not legally.Righty oh
Its gotta go for an IVA
Some Advice please. Try and stick to topic guys
Car is basically a 1983 VW Scirocco Will I need to fit the following?
1/DRL's
2/ Indicator side repeaters
3/ High level brake light
4/warning light for when side lights are on
5/ Rear headrests? Never fitted to a scirocco. However since the rear seats are useless , due to hood mechanism. I will remove the seats. Acceptable?
6/Rear fogs have warning light. However, will i need a relay gizmo, so as they can't be left on when lights are switched off and switched back on.
7/ immobiliser? Standard steering lock ok?
8/Seat belts original ones. with a ticket on them giving specs. Ok?
9/ Engine emissions should be ok Past its MOT in January? (Has original engine)
10/ brakes as above?
11/Will I need to fit a roll over hoop?
Anything else I need to know?
Its gotta go for an IVA
Some Advice please. Try and stick to topic guys
Car is basically a 1983 VW Scirocco Will I need to fit the following?
1/DRL's
2/ Indicator side repeaters
3/ High level brake light
4/warning light for when side lights are on
5/ Rear headrests? Never fitted to a scirocco. However since the rear seats are useless , due to hood mechanism. I will remove the seats. Acceptable?
6/Rear fogs have warning light. However, will i need a relay gizmo, so as they can't be left on when lights are switched off and switched back on.
7/ immobiliser? Standard steering lock ok?
8/Seat belts original ones. with a ticket on them giving specs. Ok?
9/ Engine emissions should be ok Past its MOT in January? (Has original engine)
10/ brakes as above?
11/Will I need to fit a roll over hoop?
Anything else I need to know?
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