about getting a R500 to the US...
Discussion
I've seem to run into a problem in getting the R500 here in the US. Along with going to the track on weekends, I also wanted to drive it on public roads.
I've been speaking to a couple of companies and the problem seems to be the Rover engine, somehow these companies can't bring the R500 here w/ that engine.
One of the companies here offered me one w/ the Ford Zetec engine. He said that they can do a alloy block 2.2L w/ 250hp @ 7250rpm, but the problem is that the engine and the dry sump system would cost me $25k!!!! And that's not even the entire price of the car!!!!!
1. Is there any GOOD alternative here for the US? I value the peformance and I would like a 500hp/ton veichle, but I'm thinking the $25k for the engine and things is a rip off. Cany anyone find me a better dealer??? Or am I looking at the wrong car???
2. Someone told me that I could have Catherham US ship me the R500 here, and I would have to register it as a "special classic veichle" or something of the like. And even though the car can be registered pre-1968, I dunno if I can drive them pubically on the roads. Should I invest in this route???
I've been speaking to a couple of companies and the problem seems to be the Rover engine, somehow these companies can't bring the R500 here w/ that engine.
One of the companies here offered me one w/ the Ford Zetec engine. He said that they can do a alloy block 2.2L w/ 250hp @ 7250rpm, but the problem is that the engine and the dry sump system would cost me $25k!!!! And that's not even the entire price of the car!!!!!
1. Is there any GOOD alternative here for the US? I value the peformance and I would like a 500hp/ton veichle, but I'm thinking the $25k for the engine and things is a rip off. Cany anyone find me a better dealer??? Or am I looking at the wrong car???
2. Someone told me that I could have Catherham US ship me the R500 here, and I would have to register it as a "special classic veichle" or something of the like. And even though the car can be registered pre-1968, I dunno if I can drive them pubically on the roads. Should I invest in this route???
A better place to ask (if you've not already) is www.blatchat.com which is the Lotus 7 Club site.
I know that people have blagged the import of Minis into the US using the last method you've mentioned - ie. buy a knackered Mini of the correct age for importation and swap the identity onto a newer Mini. But it is of course illegal. Also check out www.tvrfreak.com as he's managed to get a TVR into the States somehow, and that surely can't be OBDII compatible.
I know that people have blagged the import of Minis into the US using the last method you've mentioned - ie. buy a knackered Mini of the correct age for importation and swap the identity onto a newer Mini. But it is of course illegal. Also check out www.tvrfreak.com as he's managed to get a TVR into the States somehow, and that surely can't be OBDII compatible.
Have you been to: www.caterhamusa.com and clicked on US Engine program?
They have engines for less but not as powerful. They also include the price of a transmission but they would prolly deduct price minus tranny.
There is a HS-7 import form that has a box that can be checked for vehicles over 25 years that would leave me to beleive (as well) that that is possible to take that route.
Good Luck
They have engines for less but not as powerful. They also include the price of a transmission but they would prolly deduct price minus tranny.
There is a HS-7 import form that has a box that can be checked for vehicles over 25 years that would leave me to beleive (as well) that that is possible to take that route.
Good Luck
I imagine getting it back to Minister for a rebuild every 3000 track miles or 8000 road miles might be an issue for him. The thing people don't seem to appreciate about that engine is that it's a race engine and as such comes with all the baggage and maintenance that is required of one.
He'd be far better off getting a rolling SL chassis from Caterham with all the right bits on it then plant a 220bhp (220bhp should be a decent balance between cost, power and reliability) Duratec in there. It'll be more reliable in the long run, cheaper (remember a replacement Minister R500 engine is over £12000) and torquier. Sure it won't be quite as quick but it ain't gonna be a million miles away.
IMHO there are far better ways of putting 240bhp in a Caterham than a K series and there is no way in a million years the K is going to pass any US emmisions laws without massively throttling it which defeats the object.
He'd be far better off getting a rolling SL chassis from Caterham with all the right bits on it then plant a 220bhp (220bhp should be a decent balance between cost, power and reliability) Duratec in there. It'll be more reliable in the long run, cheaper (remember a replacement Minister R500 engine is over £12000) and torquier. Sure it won't be quite as quick but it ain't gonna be a million miles away.
IMHO there are far better ways of putting 240bhp in a Caterham than a K series and there is no way in a million years the K is going to pass any US emmisions laws without massively throttling it which defeats the object.
If you imported a Caterham into the US would you need to comply with full US regulations i.e. drive-by-noise, crash testing, tailpipe emissions, on board diagnostics. If so the cost of getting the car through certification would be huge.
If not the Duratec is definately the way to go as it's all alloy; the 2.0 Mondeo lump is not currently used in the US but there is a 2.3 which is a stroked version of 2.0. I think the base power is somewhere around 160 hp so it wouldn't take much to get 200+.
If not the Duratec is definately the way to go as it's all alloy; the 2.0 Mondeo lump is not currently used in the US but there is a 2.3 which is a stroked version of 2.0. I think the base power is somewhere around 160 hp so it wouldn't take much to get 200+.
I thought you could import it in kit form and build it there with an 'on list' powerplant?
This is how they used to get around getting Elise's in. Import them without engine then drop a US spec Honda Integra Type-R engine in.
Somehow this got around the regulations.
Also, I was talking to a friend yesterday who runs a Caterham with a Raceline Zetec in there. Apparently they supply everything you need to drop a Zetec into a Caterham chassis, engine mounts and all. I'm sure they'd do the same for the Duratec. So providing you can source an engine out there, you should be rockin.
>> Edited by juansolo on Sunday 8th September 16:24
This is how they used to get around getting Elise's in. Import them without engine then drop a US spec Honda Integra Type-R engine in.
Somehow this got around the regulations.
Also, I was talking to a friend yesterday who runs a Caterham with a Raceline Zetec in there. Apparently they supply everything you need to drop a Zetec into a Caterham chassis, engine mounts and all. I'm sure they'd do the same for the Duratec. So providing you can source an engine out there, you should be rockin.
>> Edited by juansolo on Sunday 8th September 16:24
If you are in california talk to william at autocourse.
www.autocourseinc.com/legal.htm
I test drove one of the Zetec engined Caterhams and was well impressed
www.zensurweb.com/cars/testdrive/caterham/caterham.htm
>> Edited by sumo_elan on Tuesday 10th September 02:33
www.autocourseinc.com/legal.htm
I test drove one of the Zetec engined Caterhams and was well impressed
www.zensurweb.com/cars/testdrive/caterham/caterham.htm
>> Edited by sumo_elan on Tuesday 10th September 02:33
I believe raceline are currently developing a Duratech in a Caterham with an output in the 250-300bhp range!!! Should make for mighty impressive performance.
On the subject of buying a rolling SL chassis I can't see the difference between a rolling SL chassis (with the appropriate R500 type extras) being anything like £12K, more like £6K I would have thought (and I know you're right about the £12K from Minister). On this basis either Minister are very expensive or the R500 is a bit of a bargain (or the base SL is a rip off!)
On the subject of buying a rolling SL chassis I can't see the difference between a rolling SL chassis (with the appropriate R500 type extras) being anything like £12K, more like £6K I would have thought (and I know you're right about the £12K from Minister). On this basis either Minister are very expensive or the R500 is a bit of a bargain (or the base SL is a rip off!)
The price difference between a SLR500 and SL is quite alarming. IIRC an SL these days is around £23k and a SLR500 with all the neccessary bits on it is in the very high 30's. So even taking the price as £36 (which I'm sure they are a lot more than now) you are still talking a price difference of £13k and that's WITH an engine. Remember that you won't need the 6 speed gearbox either so with the engine also removed from the options that must put the price of a rolling chassis in the region of £18k tops.
Still faaaaaar too much money IMO when you can build a brand new S2000 powered Westfield for £20k all up and these days there isn't really anything in it between the Westies and Caterhams unless the badge and heritage are worth the extra money to you.
Still faaaaaar too much money IMO when you can build a brand new S2000 powered Westfield for £20k all up and these days there isn't really anything in it between the Westies and Caterhams unless the badge and heritage are worth the extra money to you.
Yes but you've got to look at the price of the extras you get in with the price of an SL and SLR500. For example the SLR500 has the CF Tillet seats, these are £470 a peice. Magnesium 13" wheels and CR500s approx £1300, 6 speed box £2K, magnesium belhousing and sump £???, limited slip diff £??? Dry sump £???, race 4-2-1 stainless steel exhaust £1K?, carbon aeroscreen and mirrors £400,
and relative to a Westfiled (I may be wrong here) all caterhams have aluminium body panels £???, De Dion rear axle £???
Now I'm no expert on Westfields but do they come with any of the above?
and relative to a Westfiled (I may be wrong here) all caterhams have aluminium body panels £???, De Dion rear axle £???
Now I'm no expert on Westfields but do they come with any of the above?
Yes but you've got to look at the price of the extras you get in with the price of an SL and SLR500.
For example the SLR500 has the CF Tillet seats, these are £470 a peice.
FWIW they are really not worth double the price of the GRP items which are not much heavier (they still wiegh less than the runners that they bolt to the car on).
Magnesium 13" wheels and CR500s approx £1300
True. Again not quite as light but the Minators on the SL ain't exactly lardy.
magnesium belhousing and sump £???, Dry sump £?? 6 speed box £2K, race 4-2-1 stainless steel exhaust £1K?
All attatched to the engine. You can add roller barrel throttle bodies to that. But if you are putting a different engine in it this all need to be different anyhow
LSD £???
The SL comes with the LSD and 6 speed box and the big brakes BTW. It doesn't come with the big AP master cylinder though. But then neither does the R500. Also that 6 speed box is lovely while it works...
carbon aeroscreen and mirrors £400,
You can have them on an SL. take off the price of Windscreenm washers, weather gear, heater and it easily covers it.
and relative to a Westfiled (I may be wrong here) all caterhams have aluminium body panels £???
Yes...
De Dion rear axle £???
Nice bit of 50's design there. Explain to me how this is better than IRS? Sylva's trump this by having inboard rocker arms at the front.
Now I'm no expert on Westfields but do they come with any of the above?
Westfields are kit cars (like Caterhams) and therefore can be whatever spec you decide to build them to.
>> Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 10th September 20:04
>> Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 10th September 20:41
For example the SLR500 has the CF Tillet seats, these are £470 a peice.
FWIW they are really not worth double the price of the GRP items which are not much heavier (they still wiegh less than the runners that they bolt to the car on).
Magnesium 13" wheels and CR500s approx £1300
True. Again not quite as light but the Minators on the SL ain't exactly lardy.
magnesium belhousing and sump £???, Dry sump £?? 6 speed box £2K, race 4-2-1 stainless steel exhaust £1K?
All attatched to the engine. You can add roller barrel throttle bodies to that. But if you are putting a different engine in it this all need to be different anyhow
LSD £???
The SL comes with the LSD and 6 speed box and the big brakes BTW. It doesn't come with the big AP master cylinder though. But then neither does the R500. Also that 6 speed box is lovely while it works...
carbon aeroscreen and mirrors £400,
You can have them on an SL. take off the price of Windscreenm washers, weather gear, heater and it easily covers it.
and relative to a Westfiled (I may be wrong here) all caterhams have aluminium body panels £???
Yes...
De Dion rear axle £???
Nice bit of 50's design there. Explain to me how this is better than IRS? Sylva's trump this by having inboard rocker arms at the front.
Now I'm no expert on Westfields but do they come with any of the above?
Westfields are kit cars (like Caterhams) and therefore can be whatever spec you decide to build them to.
>> Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 10th September 20:04
>> Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 10th September 20:41
Don't think I made myself entirely clear there!
I was trying to answer two questions raised before. Firstly the difference in spec. (ignoring the engine) between an SL and an SLR500 suggested that the R500 engine couldn't cost anything like £12K.
The 2nd was to suggest that a standard SL has a lot of expensive bits that (I assume) a 'standard' Westfiled doesn't - and hence the difference in price between a Caterham and Westfield.
As I siad I'm not an expert on Westfields (or Caterhams for that matter) but to say an SL is £XK more than a Westfield is misleading given the difference in spec. No?
Mike.
I was trying to answer two questions raised before. Firstly the difference in spec. (ignoring the engine) between an SL and an SLR500 suggested that the R500 engine couldn't cost anything like £12K.
The 2nd was to suggest that a standard SL has a lot of expensive bits that (I assume) a 'standard' Westfiled doesn't - and hence the difference in price between a Caterham and Westfield.
As I siad I'm not an expert on Westfields (or Caterhams for that matter) but to say an SL is £XK more than a Westfield is misleading given the difference in spec. No?
Mike.
The problem is you're not comparing like for like. If you're comparing factory build cars then yes the SL is a better package IMO but then I think the factory Westfields are poorly specced and far too much money.
But as I said they are kit cars, you build them to the spec that you want to. You order the chassis and drop in whatever engine/gearbox/diff/brake/rack/etc combo that you want to.
Personally I do not rate the Caterham 6 speed box. It's a lovely thing to use but it's no-where near as bullet proof as is made out. It's also horrifically expensive to fix. I'd much prefer a Quaife Pro straight cut box which is much stronger and costs less. Same with the diff, I'd have either a Tran-X plate diff or a Quaife ATB (depending on what the car is to be used for). Also I really don't like the K-Series as it's very expensive to tune and fragile... If you're just wanting to potter around all day on roads then none of this is an issue. It all depends on what you want from the car.
What I'm trying to say is you can build a technically superior car to a R500 for half the price using a different base kit from someone like Sylva or Westfield. No it won't be as pretty, it won't have the heritage and it won't have the badge. But it will be every bit as good where it counts and if done properly there is no reason it couldn't be better. It all depends on what your priorities are.
Back to your first point. The R500 engine DOES cost £12k. It also costs you a good couple of grand to rebuild it when it's required. The cost is inside the engine. Race engines cost this much, it's just the way it is. Looking at the spec of the R500 it's actually suprisingly good value for what you get. But you are tied to that spec and you could do better for much less by going for an equally powerful but much less stressed engine (S2000) and take it from there. FWIW, you can pick up an S2000 powerplant, 6 speed box and bellhousing for £3k. Remember because that engine is standard you have none of the rebuild issues of the R500. There lies the difference.
>> Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 11th September 15:25
But as I said they are kit cars, you build them to the spec that you want to. You order the chassis and drop in whatever engine/gearbox/diff/brake/rack/etc combo that you want to.
Personally I do not rate the Caterham 6 speed box. It's a lovely thing to use but it's no-where near as bullet proof as is made out. It's also horrifically expensive to fix. I'd much prefer a Quaife Pro straight cut box which is much stronger and costs less. Same with the diff, I'd have either a Tran-X plate diff or a Quaife ATB (depending on what the car is to be used for). Also I really don't like the K-Series as it's very expensive to tune and fragile... If you're just wanting to potter around all day on roads then none of this is an issue. It all depends on what you want from the car.
What I'm trying to say is you can build a technically superior car to a R500 for half the price using a different base kit from someone like Sylva or Westfield. No it won't be as pretty, it won't have the heritage and it won't have the badge. But it will be every bit as good where it counts and if done properly there is no reason it couldn't be better. It all depends on what your priorities are.
Back to your first point. The R500 engine DOES cost £12k. It also costs you a good couple of grand to rebuild it when it's required. The cost is inside the engine. Race engines cost this much, it's just the way it is. Looking at the spec of the R500 it's actually suprisingly good value for what you get. But you are tied to that spec and you could do better for much less by going for an equally powerful but much less stressed engine (S2000) and take it from there. FWIW, you can pick up an S2000 powerplant, 6 speed box and bellhousing for £3k. Remember because that engine is standard you have none of the rebuild issues of the R500. There lies the difference.
>> Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 11th September 15:25
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