Which kit car manufacturers are doing well?
Discussion
I've been looking through this thread and it soon makes for grim reading. I've got an idea for a kit car but it honestly looks like I'd be trying to sell people a mangle when everyone is buying internet-equipped washer driers.
Are there any kit car companies that are doing well?
Suffolk Sports Cars seem to be still in business. There are numerous Lotus 7 clones and Cobra replicas too and a few companies are around who get around the SVA requirement by rebodying an existing sports car.
Is there anyone else that's had a long run at making kits? What are they doing differently?
I know it's difficult to find real guidance here as anyone who's doing well probably doesn't want to give away the key to their success and those who already have a business perhaps don't want other potential manufacturers coming into the market and taking away potential customers.
Are there any kit car companies that are doing well?
Suffolk Sports Cars seem to be still in business. There are numerous Lotus 7 clones and Cobra replicas too and a few companies are around who get around the SVA requirement by rebodying an existing sports car.
Is there anyone else that's had a long run at making kits? What are they doing differently?
I know it's difficult to find real guidance here as anyone who's doing well probably doesn't want to give away the key to their success and those who already have a business perhaps don't want other potential manufacturers coming into the market and taking away potential customers.
I think there is no one answer as to who has/will do well.
There are the two big boys that keep on selling based on reputation and resale values - Caterham and Westfield.
There are two serial designers that once the car is proven and has covered the design costs sell on the designs to others to exploit - Jeremy Philips and Stuart Mills - their success is based on good engineering at the right price along with some brand identity in their designs
The top end seem to keep going steady - Suffolk, southern gt, the stratos replicas, ultima etc.
The sevenesque segment seems to have improved greatly in terms of engineering and qualify but is probably led by those that give good, consistent and responsive service - raw and mnr come to mind that are often cited on this forum but there are probably others.
But there has been some notable names that are no longer trading including DJ Sportscars and Pilgrim and many good cars that only sold a handful, for example the raffo belva.
So, as I said, no common theme but I think to sell any volume in the future then customer service, ease of construction and a range of build options (from components to packages to car in a box) with a bit of individuality in the design will probably be the formula going forward irrespective of the position in the market.
There are the two big boys that keep on selling based on reputation and resale values - Caterham and Westfield.
There are two serial designers that once the car is proven and has covered the design costs sell on the designs to others to exploit - Jeremy Philips and Stuart Mills - their success is based on good engineering at the right price along with some brand identity in their designs
The top end seem to keep going steady - Suffolk, southern gt, the stratos replicas, ultima etc.
The sevenesque segment seems to have improved greatly in terms of engineering and qualify but is probably led by those that give good, consistent and responsive service - raw and mnr come to mind that are often cited on this forum but there are probably others.
But there has been some notable names that are no longer trading including DJ Sportscars and Pilgrim and many good cars that only sold a handful, for example the raffo belva.
So, as I said, no common theme but I think to sell any volume in the future then customer service, ease of construction and a range of build options (from components to packages to car in a box) with a bit of individuality in the design will probably be the formula going forward irrespective of the position in the market.
... whilst the 'vibes' in the industry (from suppliers, etc.) are that neither Westfield nor Caterham are doing as well as they could be, just lately.
Really cheap kit cars have always done well, regardless of engineering quality... that's where MEV scores, and that's where Robin Hood scored, in their day (until their reputation became so bad that the market could no longer ignore it). GBS has taken some of the Robin Hood business strategy but coupled it to a half reasonable product, this time.
Sylva were always an exceptional product for the price, but were let down because they were never developed to the point where they would snap together like an Airfix kit, and never marketed properly: JP had no real interest in either, but instead sold the projects on to companies like RAW, when he got bored with them. The actual production figures for Sylva-manufactured examples of the cars (considering their very high reputation) were always surprisingly low, therefore.
Really cheap kit cars have always done well, regardless of engineering quality... that's where MEV scores, and that's where Robin Hood scored, in their day (until their reputation became so bad that the market could no longer ignore it). GBS has taken some of the Robin Hood business strategy but coupled it to a half reasonable product, this time.
Sylva were always an exceptional product for the price, but were let down because they were never developed to the point where they would snap together like an Airfix kit, and never marketed properly: JP had no real interest in either, but instead sold the projects on to companies like RAW, when he got bored with them. The actual production figures for Sylva-manufactured examples of the cars (considering their very high reputation) were always surprisingly low, therefore.
OP, is your idea genuinely different or better than other kits? Kit cars can still thrive in my non-expert opinion if they offer something different to second hand 10k sports cars.
Also I guess if you engineer it to go together easily then more cars finished on the road is good advertising, rather than sat unfinished in garages because builders are expected to finish engineering the kit themselves.
Also I guess if you engineer it to go together easily then more cars finished on the road is good advertising, rather than sat unfinished in garages because builders are expected to finish engineering the kit themselves.
Ultima, Caterham, Westfield and Hawk appear to be successful kit car companies, employing a reasonable number of people.
I would suggest pretty much all of the others are 1-3 people doing it for love and modest returns. Many supplement it with other work either general garage services or another career altogether.
As has been discussed many times before the market for kit cars has shrunk since the Elise, Boxster, MX5 etc became cheap.
What does it take to be a success?
Ultima. Different, well resolved, Hyper car performance for used supercar money. Not great residuals.
Caterham. Nostalgia, well resolved, easy to build, community and bullet proof residuals.
Hawk. Recreations of cars that aren't available to buy for 99.99% of the population. A genuine Stratos is 500k, a 427 Cobra 1m? Both can be built for 40-50k and both have great residuals.
Conclusion?
If it's an accurate recreation and at least as good as the original there may be a market.
If it's easy to build and costs next to nothing to own for a while then it will appeal to people who want a fun third or fourth car they do 500-3000 miles pa.
An original design that looks good enough and performs better than anything available for the money. This I would say is the most difficult to achieve.
MEV are the stand out to me. Stuart comes up with some great designs, that are very economical to buy & build. If they don't sell in decent numbers he bins it/sells it and moves on to the next. A very similar model to JP. They may not be the last word in refinement and may not be developed to the level of Caterham or Ultima etc but they can be built for less than 10k, some for less than 5k. Use a single, readily available donor and perform better than an MX5, MR2 etc as they are half the weight.
Looking back at what has been on the kit car market over the years in one respect it amazes me a lot are no longer manufactured. The GTM Libra was brilliant but in the end too expensive to compete and not worth the money to continue development which kind of says it all.
I would suggest pretty much all of the others are 1-3 people doing it for love and modest returns. Many supplement it with other work either general garage services or another career altogether.
As has been discussed many times before the market for kit cars has shrunk since the Elise, Boxster, MX5 etc became cheap.
What does it take to be a success?
Ultima. Different, well resolved, Hyper car performance for used supercar money. Not great residuals.
Caterham. Nostalgia, well resolved, easy to build, community and bullet proof residuals.
Hawk. Recreations of cars that aren't available to buy for 99.99% of the population. A genuine Stratos is 500k, a 427 Cobra 1m? Both can be built for 40-50k and both have great residuals.
Conclusion?
If it's an accurate recreation and at least as good as the original there may be a market.
If it's easy to build and costs next to nothing to own for a while then it will appeal to people who want a fun third or fourth car they do 500-3000 miles pa.
An original design that looks good enough and performs better than anything available for the money. This I would say is the most difficult to achieve.
MEV are the stand out to me. Stuart comes up with some great designs, that are very economical to buy & build. If they don't sell in decent numbers he bins it/sells it and moves on to the next. A very similar model to JP. They may not be the last word in refinement and may not be developed to the level of Caterham or Ultima etc but they can be built for less than 10k, some for less than 5k. Use a single, readily available donor and perform better than an MX5, MR2 etc as they are half the weight.
Looking back at what has been on the kit car market over the years in one respect it amazes me a lot are no longer manufactured. The GTM Libra was brilliant but in the end too expensive to compete and not worth the money to continue development which kind of says it all.
ugg10 said:
But there has been some notable names that are no longer trading including DJ Sportscars and Pilgrim and many good cars that only sold a handful, for example the raffo belva.
Pilgrim are still very much in business and apparently flourishing: http://www.pilgrim-motorsports.co.uk/DJ Sportcars have been through a process of reorganisation but I believe they are still selling cobras.
All great replies, thank you everyone so far.
Even though this is only in the planning stage I'm very aware that many kit car companies have gone under and the design is where I can influence the cost most strongly. I'm trying to make something where even if I sell one, my costs are so low (except for my time) that I won't have lost anything. But it's tricky!
Nikolai said:
OP, is your idea genuinely different or better than other kits? Kit cars can still thrive in my non-expert opinion if they offer something different to second hand 10k sports cars.
It's at the design stage right now (my day job is a design engineer so I take this bit seriously before spending my own money!) but the plan is that it will be different to most other kit cars, not compete with things like a second hand MX5 or Boxter and be easy to build and own.rdodger said:
Ultima, Caterham, Westfield and Hawk appear to be successful kit car companies, employing a reasonable number of people.
<snip>
If it's an accurate recreation and at least as good as the original there may be a market.
Good to hear that at least some companies are selling enough to cover wages, premises etc. The accurate recreation is the area that I'm aiming for.<snip>
If it's an accurate recreation and at least as good as the original there may be a market.
Even though this is only in the planning stage I'm very aware that many kit car companies have gone under and the design is where I can influence the cost most strongly. I'm trying to make something where even if I sell one, my costs are so low (except for my time) that I won't have lost anything. But it's tricky!
Equus said:
Sylva were always an exceptional product for the price, but were let down because they were never developed to the point where they would snap together like an Airfix kit, and never marketed properly: JP had no real interest in either, but instead sold the projects on to companies like RAW, when he got bored with them. The actual production figures for Sylva-manufactured examples of the cars (considering their very high reputation) were always surprisingly low, therefore.
Jeremy Phillips recently sold Sylva and it looks like the new owners are running it along side their Motorsport based business. The j16 or Vectis has been developed into the J17 which looks pretty much the same but uses a MGF single donor. It doesn't use the rear subframe anymore.There's also talk of a race series for it. I've just been lurking on their FB page so there may be more going on
My experience was one of frustration. I ended up going into racing and spending less in a formula car. That is just me, but I believe the patience required, and the constant sourcing of weird parts, that may or may not work, is not what most people want to do nowadays. No regrets though.
Full on race cars, plus fees for events, and all the safety equipment make it much cheaper than "kit cars" that you can't drive on many roads anyways, due to the poor condition of the surfaces. I did meet some very nice people, who gave a lot of their time helping me along the way, and for that I am very grateful.
Full on race cars, plus fees for events, and all the safety equipment make it much cheaper than "kit cars" that you can't drive on many roads anyways, due to the poor condition of the surfaces. I did meet some very nice people, who gave a lot of their time helping me along the way, and for that I am very grateful.
Hi Gareth, the good news is that there is plenty of scope to offer a new product to market. More good news is that all the guys I speak to are doing well and those that are not doing too well are at least doing well enough to carry on. So in answer to your question, I would say all is well or they would not be around. Some firms that have full order books only make 2 cars per year so success is all relative to overheads.
You mention that yours will be different to other kit cars so in that case the thread title maybe irrelevant and you also mention SVA so it seems you need to catch up with the current legislation.
I would always encourage new products to come to market, we need fresh new ideas, the market is very buoyant at the high end and low cost end but there does appear to be a growing gap in the middle.
My advice;
1. Go for it but keep a firm eye on your pocket.
2. Don't spend any more than you would be happy to pay for a one off just in case the discerning kit car buyer does not buy in.
3. If possible produce CAD renderings for comment on forums before you commit.
4. Don't borrow money, if you can't manage it, save up just in case you finish up without a return.
5. Listen to all opinions, but some will criticise, some will praise and some will just try to find fault for the sake of it.
6. If it's in your blood you have to do it, if you just think about it and do not go for it you will never know if you could make it work. If it fails to make a business case then you will still have your own dream car that you personally created, something to be very proud of.
7. Don't show a part finished product, you will be excited but you only get one chance at a first impression.
8. Your best mate may well think you are brilliant but seldom does a potential customer make allowances for the fact that you did it all yourself and are the jack of all trades.
9. Employ pro's if you lack skills in certain areas although it is not as rewarding as doing it all yourself. It maybe more financially rewarding though if the pro help produces a better product that could be the difference between "right" and "wrong".
10. Design the car with IVA in mind from the outset, e.g no point in styling a car that has a body with non compliant headlight positions.
Hope the above helps, keep us posted. Regards Stuart
You mention that yours will be different to other kit cars so in that case the thread title maybe irrelevant and you also mention SVA so it seems you need to catch up with the current legislation.
I would always encourage new products to come to market, we need fresh new ideas, the market is very buoyant at the high end and low cost end but there does appear to be a growing gap in the middle.
My advice;
1. Go for it but keep a firm eye on your pocket.
2. Don't spend any more than you would be happy to pay for a one off just in case the discerning kit car buyer does not buy in.
3. If possible produce CAD renderings for comment on forums before you commit.
4. Don't borrow money, if you can't manage it, save up just in case you finish up without a return.
5. Listen to all opinions, but some will criticise, some will praise and some will just try to find fault for the sake of it.
6. If it's in your blood you have to do it, if you just think about it and do not go for it you will never know if you could make it work. If it fails to make a business case then you will still have your own dream car that you personally created, something to be very proud of.
7. Don't show a part finished product, you will be excited but you only get one chance at a first impression.
8. Your best mate may well think you are brilliant but seldom does a potential customer make allowances for the fact that you did it all yourself and are the jack of all trades.
9. Employ pro's if you lack skills in certain areas although it is not as rewarding as doing it all yourself. It maybe more financially rewarding though if the pro help produces a better product that could be the difference between "right" and "wrong".
10. Design the car with IVA in mind from the outset, e.g no point in styling a car that has a body with non compliant headlight positions.
Hope the above helps, keep us posted. Regards Stuart
Thanks Stuart, if a forum is like a virtual pub I'd be buying you beer all night for that. I'm pretty much in line with what you've written but it's good to have it clarified by someone who knows.
1. Yes, I've got a costed bill of materials in progress already
2. Exactly my plan. The problem with tooling up for a fibreglass shell is that if nobody wants it I've spent lots of money on something that takes up half the garden. That's really what's forcing me to make it differently.
3. Working on it. I've got the concept in CAD so far, as the details get worked out it will keep getting added to the bill of materials.
4. I haven't borrowed money for a car for about 15 years (which explains why I drive disgusting old snotters) and if this turns into an "abandoned project" on ebay I don't expect it will be worth much!
5. Agreed, even when you reach a consensus on a forum there'll be others who think the exact opposite.
6. That's an interesting way of putting it. I just thought there was something wrong with me
7. Some people get keyed up seeing a part finished bodyshell on axle stands and it's sometimes a good way to build interest over time. However I agree that if it looks like the interior has lost a fight with a bear carrying some bin bags then people are unlikely to stay keen.
8. Yes, fortunately I'm never short of people to tell me it's rubbish.
9. I know straight away what skills I've got and what I lack, most engineering is really a planning exercise - whether that's skills or components.
10. It's been a while since I skimmed through it, I'll make sure it's pinned to a board at home.
1. Yes, I've got a costed bill of materials in progress already
2. Exactly my plan. The problem with tooling up for a fibreglass shell is that if nobody wants it I've spent lots of money on something that takes up half the garden. That's really what's forcing me to make it differently.
3. Working on it. I've got the concept in CAD so far, as the details get worked out it will keep getting added to the bill of materials.
4. I haven't borrowed money for a car for about 15 years (which explains why I drive disgusting old snotters) and if this turns into an "abandoned project" on ebay I don't expect it will be worth much!
5. Agreed, even when you reach a consensus on a forum there'll be others who think the exact opposite.
6. That's an interesting way of putting it. I just thought there was something wrong with me
7. Some people get keyed up seeing a part finished bodyshell on axle stands and it's sometimes a good way to build interest over time. However I agree that if it looks like the interior has lost a fight with a bear carrying some bin bags then people are unlikely to stay keen.
8. Yes, fortunately I'm never short of people to tell me it's rubbish.
9. I know straight away what skills I've got and what I lack, most engineering is really a planning exercise - whether that's skills or components.
10. It's been a while since I skimmed through it, I'll make sure it's pinned to a board at home.
I've been seriously looking to build another <£10k kit car for a few year now but nothings really grabbed me - they're either ugly or the base engineering is not sufficiently developed. Had a Fury & want to try something else.
The engineering on the MEV stuff just doesn't look quite right, like it's done on the cheap
The basics of the R1ot look good but the body was designed with a ruler
The Roadrunner Racing SR2 looks good both from an engineering & looks point of view but they don't seem to have the presence of other manufacturers. No show at Stoneleigh this year.
I was hoping that someone would pick up the Warner R4, develop it and release it as a kit....
http://www.warnercars.com/
Struggling to justify another kitcar when an Elise/VX220/MX5/MR2 is available from a few £k upwards. In fact I've got a 2003 MX5 sitting gathering dust I'm considering throwing some money at.
The engineering on the MEV stuff just doesn't look quite right, like it's done on the cheap
The basics of the R1ot look good but the body was designed with a ruler
The Roadrunner Racing SR2 looks good both from an engineering & looks point of view but they don't seem to have the presence of other manufacturers. No show at Stoneleigh this year.
I was hoping that someone would pick up the Warner R4, develop it and release it as a kit....
http://www.warnercars.com/
Struggling to justify another kitcar when an Elise/VX220/MX5/MR2 is available from a few £k upwards. In fact I've got a 2003 MX5 sitting gathering dust I'm considering throwing some money at.
If you like the Fury - Sylva j15/16/17 now in new hands - MGF uprights, I would look at the Corrolla/Celica 1.8l 190 as an engine or possibly a civic type 9 k20.
http://www.sylvasportscars.co.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/sylva.sportscars?fref=ts
http://www.sylvasportscars.co.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/sylva.sportscars?fref=ts
ugg10 said:
If you like the Fury - Sylva j15/16/17 now in new hands - MGF uprights, I would look at the Corrolla/Celica 1.8l 190 as an engine or possibly a civic type 9 k20.
http://www.sylvasportscars.co.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/sylva.sportscars?fref=ts
Thanks for the post - as I'm the new owner of Sylva its always good to get peoples views and thoughts about which direction to take!http://www.sylvasportscars.co.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/sylva.sportscars?fref=ts
David
With all the high powered hatches and saloons out there second hand for the same money as a completed low end kit car, why bother!
A lot of the designs suck and can only be loved by their (blinkered) creator.
Most kit cars from the early days of the market created something with performance not available from everyday cars. Now your big Merc, BMW, Jag will leave most kit cars in their dust and have electric heated seats, satnav, aircon, etc. etc. Not to mention the high end hot hatches.
The kit 'big guns' produce something that is good to the eye and beyond their customers reach financially (as has been said), if genuine.
An Ultima (I admit bias here) is able to compete with true supercars many times it's cost and good used car values are comparable to their competitors in %age terms.
When the big manufacturers spent 3 & 1/2d on new car design a kit could compete. Now they spend multi millions which is increasingly evident when compared to a kit.
The advance of electronic everything, which need computer experts to crack, is making life more difficult for kit makers.
The advance of lightweight composite carbon tubs and components that cost the price of a small car, to create lighter, faster vehicles removes the kit car advantage.
The industry needs to look for advantages and niches that others can't fill. Super light weight (500/600kgs), go-cart handling but supple, mega brakes and looks that please the eye but excite the soul.
Not much to ask but hard to do.
A lot of the designs suck and can only be loved by their (blinkered) creator.
Most kit cars from the early days of the market created something with performance not available from everyday cars. Now your big Merc, BMW, Jag will leave most kit cars in their dust and have electric heated seats, satnav, aircon, etc. etc. Not to mention the high end hot hatches.
The kit 'big guns' produce something that is good to the eye and beyond their customers reach financially (as has been said), if genuine.
An Ultima (I admit bias here) is able to compete with true supercars many times it's cost and good used car values are comparable to their competitors in %age terms.
When the big manufacturers spent 3 & 1/2d on new car design a kit could compete. Now they spend multi millions which is increasingly evident when compared to a kit.
The advance of electronic everything, which need computer experts to crack, is making life more difficult for kit makers.
The advance of lightweight composite carbon tubs and components that cost the price of a small car, to create lighter, faster vehicles removes the kit car advantage.
The industry needs to look for advantages and niches that others can't fill. Super light weight (500/600kgs), go-cart handling but supple, mega brakes and looks that please the eye but excite the soul.
Not much to ask but hard to do.
In response to the above post there are a few very obvious niches which the mass makes will never fill or seem extremely reluctant to fill.
A pretty car. I can't think of many in the last 30 years!
A small car. Back in the eighties a family car was a whole car size smaller than they are now.
A simple fun car. That's one that relies on handling and light weight, not on being so big that any challenge is small in comparison.
Most modern cars are big (too big, parking and agility suffer), ugly (why? just why?) and complex in all the areas that enthusiasts don't care about (lots of gadgets that go "beep" but no charm).
So where is the new Alpine A110, Lancia Fulvia, Fiat Dino or Alfa Giulietta convertible. Google the MPH special, Okrasa Special and Mitchel Special for three one-off creations that actually appeal (to me at least).
I'd rather have an Okrasa special than just about any coupe I can think of. What it lacks in go it would more than make up for in character and charm. Perhaps a spaceframe and Porsche drivetrain would fit under a copied bodyshell...
A pretty car. I can't think of many in the last 30 years!
A small car. Back in the eighties a family car was a whole car size smaller than they are now.
A simple fun car. That's one that relies on handling and light weight, not on being so big that any challenge is small in comparison.
Most modern cars are big (too big, parking and agility suffer), ugly (why? just why?) and complex in all the areas that enthusiasts don't care about (lots of gadgets that go "beep" but no charm).
So where is the new Alpine A110, Lancia Fulvia, Fiat Dino or Alfa Giulietta convertible. Google the MPH special, Okrasa Special and Mitchel Special for three one-off creations that actually appeal (to me at least).
I'd rather have an Okrasa special than just about any coupe I can think of. What it lacks in go it would more than make up for in character and charm. Perhaps a spaceframe and Porsche drivetrain would fit under a copied bodyshell...
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