southern gt40 vs Lister bell Chassis
Discussion
im interested in these 2 great replicas
in terms of the chassis design, the Lister bell seems substantial in terms of rigidity and safety, especially with the full integral cage
while im leaning more towards the Gt40, im more concerned regarding the chassis. seems difficult to have a full cage, and standard chassis lacking side protection etc.
Plan is a road/trackday weapon
thoughts please
links to both chassis:
http://www.southerngt.co.uk/index.php?gallery_cate...
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/pictures/380/5376/...
in terms of the chassis design, the Lister bell seems substantial in terms of rigidity and safety, especially with the full integral cage
while im leaning more towards the Gt40, im more concerned regarding the chassis. seems difficult to have a full cage, and standard chassis lacking side protection etc.
Plan is a road/trackday weapon
thoughts please
links to both chassis:
http://www.southerngt.co.uk/index.php?gallery_cate...
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/pictures/380/5376/...
Some pictures of the 'competition' version of the STR chassis on this thread.
http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/3346...
Even more substantial than the 'normal' one.
If money were no object, I'd be building an STR with a 3.5 Toyota motor.
It's always risky commenting on the 'look' of something like a chassis....but I do take that point about the Southern. Very little depth to it and lacking the whole A/B/C pillar/roof hoops thing can't help. Larger tubes used, but it looks a lot like the old Marcos Mantula chassis, and stiff that most certainly wasn't.
http://www.stratosec.com/Forum/showthread.php/3346...
Even more substantial than the 'normal' one.
If money were no object, I'd be building an STR with a 3.5 Toyota motor.
It's always risky commenting on the 'look' of something like a chassis....but I do take that point about the Southern. Very little depth to it and lacking the whole A/B/C pillar/roof hoops thing can't help. Larger tubes used, but it looks a lot like the old Marcos Mantula chassis, and stiff that most certainly wasn't.
Edited by NoCorseChris on Thursday 18th August 09:41
There's more to safety than just some big tubing though.
Full roll cages are not a good idea on the road, no matter how much padding they have. You MUST wear a helmet with one. Very prominent member of the GT40 community killed recently when his head hit the (padded) roll bar in a collision. They might work in a larger vehicle, but in something so small there isn't the space to ensure your head won't collide.
GT40 space frames are all about lightweight triangulation, with bonded on panelling for rigidity. They are tougher than you think. Can't speak for the Lister Bell.
That said the GT40's put the tanks in the side pods and have little side impact protection.
Neither are as safe as a modern car, but stronger than a caterfield. A lot of it is upto the choices of the builder.
Full roll cages are not a good idea on the road, no matter how much padding they have. You MUST wear a helmet with one. Very prominent member of the GT40 community killed recently when his head hit the (padded) roll bar in a collision. They might work in a larger vehicle, but in something so small there isn't the space to ensure your head won't collide.
GT40 space frames are all about lightweight triangulation, with bonded on panelling for rigidity. They are tougher than you think. Can't speak for the Lister Bell.
That said the GT40's put the tanks in the side pods and have little side impact protection.
Neither are as safe as a modern car, but stronger than a caterfield. A lot of it is upto the choices of the builder.
Vxduncan
I agree with u about cage. I have sat in a lister b and the shape of the roofline means the cage is practically touching your head
I have had a mantula and the gt40 spaceframe is very substantial in comparison with what looks like significant triagulation
Ofcourse these cars are never as safe as a modern and im used to low volume.. Just with 400-500 hp im Trying to weigh up any negatives to the gt40 chassis. I do beleive they have optimised the design compared to previous incarnations though, in terms of both strength and suspension design
I agree with u about cage. I have sat in a lister b and the shape of the roofline means the cage is practically touching your head
I have had a mantula and the gt40 spaceframe is very substantial in comparison with what looks like significant triagulation
Ofcourse these cars are never as safe as a modern and im used to low volume.. Just with 400-500 hp im Trying to weigh up any negatives to the gt40 chassis. I do beleive they have optimised the design compared to previous incarnations though, in terms of both strength and suspension design
I own a Southern GT, the chassis is indeed very well regarded and I believe the best GT40 rep available in the UK market by a country mile, that said it is not a regular modern production car and as such will not be as safe. The full cages are now regarded as a track only feature and I'm fairly sure Southern GT won't fit them to a road can now due to the risks if a helmet is not worn a every time you drive it..
VxDuncan said:
There's more to safety than just some big tubing though.
Full roll cages are not a good idea on the road, no matter how much padding they have. You MUST wear a helmet with one. Very prominent member of the GT40 community killed recently when his head hit the (padded) roll bar in a collision. They might work in a larger vehicle, but in something so small there isn't the space to ensure your head won't collide.
GT40 space frames are all about lightweight triangulation, with bonded on panelling for rigidity. They are tougher than you think. Can't speak for the Lister Bell.
That said the GT40's put the tanks in the side pods and have little side impact protection.
Neither are as safe as a modern car, but stronger than a caterfield. A lot of it is upto the choices of the builder.
I used to have a CAE Corse (hence the alias) and as a Strat copy, it was of course quite similar to the STR. The roof hoop was indeed close to your head due to the shape. I went to some length to pad it as well as I reasonably could (proper roll cage padding plus an extra layer of softer stuff) but yes, you could image a scenario where it might be a bad thing having it there even with proper padding. After all, the padding is designed to protect a helmet, not a head. I could imagine many more where having a shunt in our Westfield would go badly so absolutely agree with the remark it's about choices.Full roll cages are not a good idea on the road, no matter how much padding they have. You MUST wear a helmet with one. Very prominent member of the GT40 community killed recently when his head hit the (padded) roll bar in a collision. They might work in a larger vehicle, but in something so small there isn't the space to ensure your head won't collide.
GT40 space frames are all about lightweight triangulation, with bonded on panelling for rigidity. They are tougher than you think. Can't speak for the Lister Bell.
That said the GT40's put the tanks in the side pods and have little side impact protection.
Neither are as safe as a modern car, but stronger than a caterfield. A lot of it is upto the choices of the builder.
I am building a GT40 as well.
This is mine, design in progress, lots of changes to make before I get to welding it up
if you want to look at what a GT40 built for the track would look like, then have a look at this one.
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/22164-r...
at some point you have to draw the line between a road and a track car. As has been said, there is considerable risk to blunt force trauma head injuries in a GT40. There is very, very, little room in the cockpit for a full front hoop on a cage. I am undecided what I will be doing in respect of the front hoop.
The Sothern GT looks very similar to the way Roaring Forties (RF) do their side triangulation. Some of the design will be dependent on what size and grade sheet gets used to clad it. I know RF use a 3mm thick 6061 or 7075 sheet for the floor, and It also has a few bends in it as its not flat, and this all helps with the torsional rigidity of the thing.
Good luck in the search/decision
Keep us posted please
Ryan
This is mine, design in progress, lots of changes to make before I get to welding it up
if you want to look at what a GT40 built for the track would look like, then have a look at this one.
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/22164-r...
at some point you have to draw the line between a road and a track car. As has been said, there is considerable risk to blunt force trauma head injuries in a GT40. There is very, very, little room in the cockpit for a full front hoop on a cage. I am undecided what I will be doing in respect of the front hoop.
The Sothern GT looks very similar to the way Roaring Forties (RF) do their side triangulation. Some of the design will be dependent on what size and grade sheet gets used to clad it. I know RF use a 3mm thick 6061 or 7075 sheet for the floor, and It also has a few bends in it as its not flat, and this all helps with the torsional rigidity of the thing.
Good luck in the search/decision
Keep us posted please
Ryan
The floor and side pods in the GT40 replica's are an essential part of their strength so without them the chassis looks rather lacking.
I'm using 2.5mm for the floor with 2mm on the sill tops and 1.5mm either side (in 5251 H22) plus (fireproof) foam filling the cavity. Plus all panels attached with structural adhesive for them as well as rivets... I was drilling the floor for what felt like weeks.
Non structural panels are 1.2mm 1050 (or 5251 if in a high wear area).
I'm using 2.5mm for the floor with 2mm on the sill tops and 1.5mm either side (in 5251 H22) plus (fireproof) foam filling the cavity. Plus all panels attached with structural adhesive for them as well as rivets... I was drilling the floor for what felt like weeks.
Non structural panels are 1.2mm 1050 (or 5251 if in a high wear area).
The Superformance is a slightly simplified version of the original GT40 chassis. I don't think I've ever seen any stiffness figures for either but I'm sure the ones for the original are out there somewhere.
One advantage to the Superformance (and the original) is the metal roof in comparison to the fibreglass spider of the replicas which will add a bit extra to the stiffness.
One advantage to the Superformance (and the original) is the metal roof in comparison to the fibreglass spider of the replicas which will add a bit extra to the stiffness.
Edited by Fastdruid on Saturday 27th August 20:22
The roof is double skinned in mine. The mould is heavily reinforced, you glue the inner skin into the outer skin whilst the outer is still in the mould and that is the way it maintains its shape. The A pillars are larger on the replica than the original, however they are not big enough to run a roll cage tube through, unlike the Mosler MT900 which has been deigned with very thick A pillar so that a roll cage can be hidden inside the a pillar.
I have both a tornado gt40 replica and a lister bell. There is plenty of strength in both designs. I asked lister bell.to make a smaller diameter roll bar which they were happy to do , to give more head clearance.
The workmanship in the lister bell chassis is amazing and way better than I have seen in any gt40 replica. The Sgt40 has a very expensive parts list though. The lb is much better value but both wonderful cars.
The workmanship in the lister bell chassis is amazing and way better than I have seen in any gt40 replica. The Sgt40 has a very expensive parts list though. The lb is much better value but both wonderful cars.
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