630 bhp/tonne.... Daft idea?
Discussion
Ok, I have a plan.
I was talking to an engine specialist recently about engine choices for a se7en type car or similar. He told me that a turbo charged 2.0 Duratec would happily fit in a car that could fit a Rover v8 (westfield for e.g).
Said turbo'd Duratec lump can pump out 350bhp 'comfortably'
fag packet calculation told me that said car could weigh 550kg ish.
that works out at over 630 bhp/tonne.
Would someone car to tell me if this is a good idea or not?
Transmission, driveshaft and diff apparently all ok.
heat would be my biggest concern
it's still a very light car, so stoppers shouldn't be an issue?
Much appreciated
Jake
I was talking to an engine specialist recently about engine choices for a se7en type car or similar. He told me that a turbo charged 2.0 Duratec would happily fit in a car that could fit a Rover v8 (westfield for e.g).
Said turbo'd Duratec lump can pump out 350bhp 'comfortably'
fag packet calculation told me that said car could weigh 550kg ish.
that works out at over 630 bhp/tonne.
Would someone car to tell me if this is a good idea or not?
Transmission, driveshaft and diff apparently all ok.
heat would be my biggest concern
it's still a very light car, so stoppers shouldn't be an issue?
Much appreciated
Jake
Noble Motorsport do a really fantastic Duratec Turbo now .. sounds just what you're after .. you can never have too much power.
I saw the duratec turbo strapped in to a Stylus the other week with omex ecu. was purring like a kitten .. wonderful manners for a 350bhp engine.
looks like a great conversion
go for it 
I saw the duratec turbo strapped in to a Stylus the other week with omex ecu. was purring like a kitten .. wonderful manners for a 350bhp engine.
looks like a great conversion
go for it where would that put the 450BHP busa supercharged/nos westfield i saw at TTS last week whilst having mine set up on rollers. Ballistic i guess.
A busa supercharged engined Radical war there too, a mere 340 at wheels, check out TTS they know there bike engines.
>> Edited by Jon Ison on Saturday 26th February 20:47
A busa supercharged engined Radical war there too, a mere 340 at wheels, check out TTS they know there bike engines.
>> Edited by Jon Ison on Saturday 26th February 20:47
Some of the 2L duratec westfields have, i think, actually come in at just over 500kg - with a full fuel tank at SVA weigh in. Pay some attention to weight and you could look at 700 h/t. Sounds like good fun. Heat would surely be an issue - but apart from that, as long as it has sticky tyres, vented discs, lsd and anti-roll bars it would be usable. Also, if using a type 9 gearbox, then you would want to think about a quaife aluminum casing - as apparently the iron casings can crack when large toque and grip are applied.
Sounds like few quids worth come to think of it.
Sounds like few quids worth come to think of it.
600+bhp per ton is definatelly not silly...
However It'll all depend on the package.
Saying that 350+bhp in a seven type car has been done quite a few times... I'd seek out the guys with cossie engined ones as a lot of these will have that kind of BHP and the engine caracteristics (both being Turbo'd) will be similar.
However It'll all depend on the package.
Saying that 350+bhp in a seven type car has been done quite a few times... I'd seek out the guys with cossie engined ones as a lot of these will have that kind of BHP and the engine caracteristics (both being Turbo'd) will be similar.
feet said:
Also, if using a type 9 gearbox, then you would want to think about a quaife aluminum casing - as apparently the iron casings can crack when large toque and grip are applied.
Sounds like few quids worth come to think of it.
The Duratec has a different bellhousing bolt pattern to the one Ford have been using on their 4 pot engines since the 105E came out in 1959, so you can't just bolt up a Type 9 with bellhousing from a scrapper.
Better bet for big power with this engine is Mitchell Cotts MCT5 gearbox as shown in the Power Torque Engineering piece here www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=9903
300+HP in a seven is great fun on a track but realistically its a waste if you're only using it on the road.
I've got a Dax rush cosworth that running about 300bhp / 300lb/ft (750kg's including me) and you're always having to back off the throttle. The last time i was out for a run in with friends we were all going as fast as i am comfortable with on the road, the other cars were running 190-200bhp zetec engines and weren't being left behind. On a track where you can really let the cars loose the power difference is obvious and the extra power is useful rather than just being a talking point in the pub.
I've got a Dax rush cosworth that running about 300bhp / 300lb/ft (750kg's including me) and you're always having to back off the throttle. The last time i was out for a run in with friends we were all going as fast as i am comfortable with on the road, the other cars were running 190-200bhp zetec engines and weren't being left behind. On a track where you can really let the cars loose the power difference is obvious and the extra power is useful rather than just being a talking point in the pub.
300+HP in a seven is great fun on a track but realistically its a waste if you're only using it on the road.
I've got a Dax rush cosworth that running about 300bhp / 300lb/ft (750kg's including me) and you're always having to back off the throttle. The last time i was out for a run in with friends we were all going as fast as i am comfortable with on the road, the other cars were running 190-200bhp zetec engines and weren't being left behind. On a track where you can really let the cars loose the power difference is obvious and the extra power is useful rather than just being a talking point in the pub.
I've got a Dax rush cosworth that running about 300bhp / 300lb/ft (750kg's including me) and you're always having to back off the throttle. The last time i was out for a run in with friends we were all going as fast as i am comfortable with on the road, the other cars were running 190-200bhp zetec engines and weren't being left behind. On a track where you can really let the cars loose the power difference is obvious and the extra power is useful rather than just being a talking point in the pub.
If you want it for a road blast, occasional track day car, why not have a boost control valve fitted. That way when you're on the road you can turn the boost down in traffic etc (fuel economy aswell i'd have thought) and then turn it up for a blast on the track!
Best of both worlds, power when you need it, not when you don't.
Best of both worlds, power when you need it, not when you don't.
It's surprising how quickly you get used to the power, after 3000 miles in my Rush it feels slow and in real need of more power. You can never have too much power, that's not possible, as long as the car stays balanced.
It's not the power that could make a car dangerous or hard to drive, it's the way the power is delivered, weight balance, handling, brakes etc. As long as everything is balanced it'll be more fun with more power
It's not the power that could make a car dangerous or hard to drive, it's the way the power is delivered, weight balance, handling, brakes etc. As long as everything is balanced it'll be more fun with more power
Boosted Ls1 on here (normaly in the Ultima or engien section) can help you. he offers a cast manifold to mount the turbo onto the Zetec. also offers internals to drop comp. and provide some strength. they have some pics of the install in a westfield and it looks very good. also check out the chargecooler on thier car. very nice and compact to.
oh yeah, keep us posted on your plans. sounds very interesting.
thnaks Chris.
oh yeah, keep us posted on your plans. sounds very interesting.
thnaks Chris.
grahambell said:
The Duratec has a different bellhousing bolt pattern to the one Ford have been using on their 4 pot engines since the 105E came out in 1959, so you can't just bolt up a Type 9 with bellhousing from a scrapper.
Better bet for big power with this engine is Mitchell Cotts MCT5 gearbox as shown in the Power Torque Engineering piece here
The mitchell cotts conversion is a mt75 no bell housing - and the type 9 bolt pattern. The mitchell cotts uses the same bellhousings (usually raceline cast aluminium) as a type nine. The Mt75 is capable of taking more power than a standard type 9, but at 300hp+ figures the shafts can bow apart and gears disengage/strip (or so I have been told). Also the MT75 can be a bit of a pig for track driving, quick gearchanges go in with a grind, as my brother keeps reminding me when I drive his zetec/mt75 on trackday.
A standard type 9 would fall in half at 350hp, but a quaife derivative would be stronger and a lot more suited to track or race driving.
I'm not sure about weight, but I'd imagine a five speed ally cased type 9 would weigh similar to a Mitchell Cotts 75.
busa_rush said:
It's surprising how quickly you get used to the power, after 3000 miles in my Rush it feels slow and in real need of more power. You can never have too much power, that's not possible, as long as the car stays balanced.
It's not the power that could make a car dangerous or hard to drive, it's the way the power is delivered, weight balance, handling, brakes etc. As long as everything is balanced it'll be more fun with more power
Well said. Can never have too much power in a car. Fast cars just make you want to drive faster cars.
Realistically speaking, yes it's a daft idea and your figures are a bit out.
You will not get a V8 chassied car down to 500kgs wet with a car engine in it. Turbo charging a 7 adds a LOT of weight. Realistically you could get a race car to around 600kgs, maybe slightly less but not much. A road car will add more to this.
With this sort of power if you realistically want to put it down you'll want to be running slicks and big ones at that (10" at the back on a car of this spec is not unheard of). When you have this kind of power and 10" slicks chassis modification is a must as the backend needs significant strengthening.
The list goes on and on. There are quite a few sprint caterfields running 300+ bhp and all require a massive amount of money throwing at them to make it work properly.
IMO there is a limit to what you can put through a standard(ish) chassis before it becomes unpleasant and at this level your set up has to be absolutely spot on for it to actually work. I've driven a badly set up car at this level and it was a nightmare. Hard work to drive and unpleasant. In the real world my sub 400bhp/ton car was far more rewarding, more fun and far easier to get around at track. In real terms it's likely it was likely quicker around a circuit also.
Essentially what I'm saying is that you can't just slap a 250+bhp engine into one of these things and expect it to go like hell. You will more than likely end up with a car that's bloody awful to drive but has great pub boasting rights.
The duratec is a stonking engine. Instead of turning it into a high power timebomb get a nice reliable 200bhp out of it and getting the car as light as possible. The car will be far better balance an more than fast enough.
As for pub talk = Power to weight table
>> Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 2nd March 09:46
You will not get a V8 chassied car down to 500kgs wet with a car engine in it. Turbo charging a 7 adds a LOT of weight. Realistically you could get a race car to around 600kgs, maybe slightly less but not much. A road car will add more to this.
With this sort of power if you realistically want to put it down you'll want to be running slicks and big ones at that (10" at the back on a car of this spec is not unheard of). When you have this kind of power and 10" slicks chassis modification is a must as the backend needs significant strengthening.
The list goes on and on. There are quite a few sprint caterfields running 300+ bhp and all require a massive amount of money throwing at them to make it work properly.
IMO there is a limit to what you can put through a standard(ish) chassis before it becomes unpleasant and at this level your set up has to be absolutely spot on for it to actually work. I've driven a badly set up car at this level and it was a nightmare. Hard work to drive and unpleasant. In the real world my sub 400bhp/ton car was far more rewarding, more fun and far easier to get around at track. In real terms it's likely it was likely quicker around a circuit also.
Essentially what I'm saying is that you can't just slap a 250+bhp engine into one of these things and expect it to go like hell. You will more than likely end up with a car that's bloody awful to drive but has great pub boasting rights.
The duratec is a stonking engine. Instead of turning it into a high power timebomb get a nice reliable 200bhp out of it and getting the car as light as possible. The car will be far better balance an more than fast enough.
As for pub talk = Power to weight table
>> Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 2nd March 09:46
juansolo said:
Essentially what I'm saying is that you can't just slap a 250+bhp engine into one of these things and expect it to go like hell. You will more than likely end up with a car that's bloody awful to drive but has great pub boasting rights.
Unless you start with a car that was designed to take the power, like a Dax Rush . . .
and is usable power too! uses the Audi 1.8 20v turbo unit, lovely smooth torque curve....Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff