Are kits over priced
Discussion
To get an idea how difficult it is to get a kit down to a budget, go and ask a few trade suppliers of bespoke car parts to give you a costing for producing 5 of an item. Yes 5 not 50 or 500 etc.
Producing things on a small scale is very expensive in parts as well as labour, the designs don't come out of a cereal packet either! would you work for a couple of years for nothing? and then put 100% of the funding in to a project (that's what most producers do)?
There are not many rich Kit-Car producers, but bloody good luck to the ones that make a good living, the wheelbarrow you will see outside the factory is for their Balls!
IMHO
Nick
Producing things on a small scale is very expensive in parts as well as labour, the designs don't come out of a cereal packet either! would you work for a couple of years for nothing? and then put 100% of the funding in to a project (that's what most producers do)?
There are not many rich Kit-Car producers, but bloody good luck to the ones that make a good living, the wheelbarrow you will see outside the factory is for their Balls!
IMHO
Nick
I agree with Nick. I do know quite a bit about some manufacturers, both relatively buoyant and hand-to-mouth, and the start up costs are just collosal. Development and moulds are a big chunk of cash and anyone going into it has got to either have money to burn or the confidence that they have a saleable product....
ferg said:
I agree with Nick. I do know quite a bit about some manufacturers, both relatively buoyant and hand-to-mouth, and the start up costs are just collosal. Development and moulds are a big chunk of cash and anyone going into it has got to either have money to burn or the confidence that they have a saleable product....
Any idea how much getting a new model into production would cost? Some Seven style cars have been made on a shoestring. The Locost books £250 estimate may be dreamland but I though that £2000ish was feasable for a basic but decent home made Seven. I suppose that full bodywork would bump up the cost but it's still only plaster and fibreglass. Are there some nasty surprises in this somewhere?
I'd love to have a go at making my own design of car some day so I'm very curious about this.
Cymtriks
I believe a Locost chassis with fiberglass bodywork could be made on a shoestring. The figures you are giving could be close to the mark but, I would figure 3/4000 pounds.
For your prototype you could use plaster, foam boards, bondo and fiberglass.
For inspiration check the TONIQ-R story and it would give you an insight, in making your car design a reality.
We are talking of a prototype and a one-off project car, just for your own personal use.
To sell it as a kitcar, is another matter....
But yes kitcars are getting too pricey
I believe a Locost chassis with fiberglass bodywork could be made on a shoestring. The figures you are giving could be close to the mark but, I would figure 3/4000 pounds.
For your prototype you could use plaster, foam boards, bondo and fiberglass.
For inspiration check the TONIQ-R story and it would give you an insight, in making your car design a reality.
We are talking of a prototype and a one-off project car, just for your own personal use.
To sell it as a kitcar, is another matter....
But yes kitcars are getting too pricey
Thanks for the answers. Do you have any feel for the cost of bringing a kit to market? Say a car in the traditional kit car market segment, such as a Fury, but totally original, not a copy of anything.
I suppose the question is atually three questions, the first of which is already answered:
1)How much for a one off seven type home build
2)How much for a home build but with full bodywork
3)Bringing above kits to market
Plenty of people have done this, with varying success, but I suspect I'd need a much bigger workshop than my single garage to attempt full bodywork.
Those cost figures would go a long way to answering the original post. My hunch is that most kit car makers do it for the love of it and that the money isn't very big.
I suppose the question is atually three questions, the first of which is already answered:
1)How much for a one off seven type home build
2)How much for a home build but with full bodywork
3)Bringing above kits to market
Plenty of people have done this, with varying success, but I suspect I'd need a much bigger workshop than my single garage to attempt full bodywork.
Those cost figures would go a long way to answering the original post. My hunch is that most kit car makers do it for the love of it and that the money isn't very big.
Your Hunch is correct, very few make money out of kits, I suspect the following (GTM LIBRA, Seven replicas, a few cobra's) but the rest I wouldn't bet on it, but could be wrong.
If you want to make some money, choose one of the above, and your development costs are minimum, most of it has been done by others.
If originality is key, then you can do what ever you want in car design, but you should factor in, and consider the possibility that very few could be interested in your kit.
You could also hit it, with the likes of an Ariel Atom, very original design in a focused niche of the kit industry, with 3-5 kits a month( if I'm not mistaken).
Development costs, it all depends on how much of the work is already done or if you are starting from scratch? time concerns? do you want to sell it as a kit? who makes the chassis and the bodies? I coud go on and on...........
A guess estimate is difficult, because very few in the kit industry talk about develpment costs, but you can figure it out if you create a project/ design brief.
I hope I've answered a few of your questions....
but as they say JUST DO IT!!! life is to short!!
Cheeers
Italo
If you want to make some money, choose one of the above, and your development costs are minimum, most of it has been done by others.
If originality is key, then you can do what ever you want in car design, but you should factor in, and consider the possibility that very few could be interested in your kit.
You could also hit it, with the likes of an Ariel Atom, very original design in a focused niche of the kit industry, with 3-5 kits a month( if I'm not mistaken).
Development costs, it all depends on how much of the work is already done or if you are starting from scratch? time concerns? do you want to sell it as a kit? who makes the chassis and the bodies? I coud go on and on...........
A guess estimate is difficult, because very few in the kit industry talk about develpment costs, but you can figure it out if you create a project/ design brief.
I hope I've answered a few of your questions....
but as they say JUST DO IT!!! life is to short!!
Cheeers
Italo
ferg said:
I agree with Nick. I do know quite a bit about some manufacturers, both relatively buoyant and hand-to-mouth, and the start up costs are just collosal.
Too right. Each body panel for the CC Cyclone prototype cost around £2000 to make - and there were 14 of them. And that was 10 years ago...
Adam.
for ideas on development try:
www.locostbuilders.co.uk
a variety of projects are available with a lot of links to visit.
www.locostbuilders.co.uk
a variety of projects are available with a lot of links to visit.
Thanks guys.
I post on the locostbuilders forum, an excellent site. Chassis design is not a problem for me as I do structural engineering for a living. Suspension geometry is also no problem for me as I get along just fine with linkage systems, trigonometry, etc. I can weld and braze too.
The problem is that I know nothing about fibreglass other than reading sites like the Meerkat and LaBala home made car sites.
I'm just trying to get a feel for the cost of making bucks, moulds and panels.
The £2000 per panel figure quoted above seems incredible! For 14 panels that works out at 28K, or more like 45K in todays money. I can only assume that this includes the labour cost as it seems very high for the materials cost.
Has anyone got a costing for typical kitcar body panels such as Seven nose cones and one piece Cobra shells?
I post on the locostbuilders forum, an excellent site. Chassis design is not a problem for me as I do structural engineering for a living. Suspension geometry is also no problem for me as I get along just fine with linkage systems, trigonometry, etc. I can weld and braze too.
The problem is that I know nothing about fibreglass other than reading sites like the Meerkat and LaBala home made car sites.
I'm just trying to get a feel for the cost of making bucks, moulds and panels.
The £2000 per panel figure quoted above seems incredible! For 14 panels that works out at 28K, or more like 45K in todays money. I can only assume that this includes the labour cost as it seems very high for the materials cost.
Has anyone got a costing for typical kitcar body panels such as Seven nose cones and one piece Cobra shells?
Once the development is done and mould produced, the price of manufacturing the panel is fairly negligable.
EG. Robin Hood sell nosecones from their lolocost catalogue for £45 - £75.
I guess that's why it is so easy to produce cheaper '7's, just copy someone else's.
Original designs need development etc. A cost that needs to be recouped in production.
EG. Robin Hood sell nosecones from their lolocost catalogue for £45 - £75.
I guess that's why it is so easy to produce cheaper '7's, just copy someone else's.
Original designs need development etc. A cost that needs to be recouped in production.
Not compared to mountainbikes:
Frame: £1000
Brakes (pair): £220
Wheels (pair): £135
Forks: £300
Rear Shock: £200
Handle bars: £100
Seat post: £140
Saddle: £25
Cranks: £100
Rear cassette (gears): £50
Rear mech: £50
Front mech: £30
Head bearings: £30
Bottom bracket bearings: £30
Chain: £20
Pedals: £30
Tyres: £60 (pair)
Head spacers: £10
Grips: £10
Speedo: £40
Post clamp: £10
Lights: £200
And those are just good components, in some cases you can double the price for top components.
You do seem to get a lot for your money with kit cars in comparison...
Frame: £1000
Brakes (pair): £220
Wheels (pair): £135
Forks: £300
Rear Shock: £200
Handle bars: £100
Seat post: £140
Saddle: £25
Cranks: £100
Rear cassette (gears): £50
Rear mech: £50
Front mech: £30
Head bearings: £30
Bottom bracket bearings: £30
Chain: £20
Pedals: £30
Tyres: £60 (pair)
Head spacers: £10
Grips: £10
Speedo: £40
Post clamp: £10
Lights: £200
And those are just good components, in some cases you can double the price for top components.
You do seem to get a lot for your money with kit cars in comparison...
Cymtriks
The cheaper route in creating your own car, is to take an existing chassis, by any kitcar manufacture, and then create the new body on top of the chassis using it as a master.
A locost chassis would be perfect for your new seven type replica, or the design of a sportscar like the Fury, Caterham 21 and other.
Use foam boards, bondo and plaster for the body shape. The material would not cost you more than 300/600 Euro( 400 Pounds).
For expensive foam board you could use RENSHAPE .
Italians use plaster, cheaper and easy to work with, but heavy when finished.
For the fiberglass work, I have no Idea what the prices would be in the UK, but an honest boat builder wouldn't ask more than 3000/4000 Euro's in Italy. You should enquiry in the Uk for prices.
By the way the first Ferrari, the 815, was a rebodied FIAT!!!!!!!
I guess then that, any new car design using the seven chassis (LWB) is going to be a perfect sportscar.
Italo
The cheaper route in creating your own car, is to take an existing chassis, by any kitcar manufacture, and then create the new body on top of the chassis using it as a master.
A locost chassis would be perfect for your new seven type replica, or the design of a sportscar like the Fury, Caterham 21 and other.
Use foam boards, bondo and plaster for the body shape. The material would not cost you more than 300/600 Euro( 400 Pounds).
For expensive foam board you could use RENSHAPE .
Italians use plaster, cheaper and easy to work with, but heavy when finished.
For the fiberglass work, I have no Idea what the prices would be in the UK, but an honest boat builder wouldn't ask more than 3000/4000 Euro's in Italy. You should enquiry in the Uk for prices.
By the way the first Ferrari, the 815, was a rebodied FIAT!!!!!!!
I guess then that, any new car design using the seven chassis (LWB) is going to be a perfect sportscar.
Italo
Renshape Solutions, is also a modeling paste you could use over your foam body design.
www.huntsman.com
On top of the paste after it's hardened, you can take of the mould of the car body.
Check also the STOLA concept cars, they use RENSHAPE for rapid prototyping.
www.stola.it
I hope it helps
Italo
www.huntsman.com
On top of the paste after it's hardened, you can take of the mould of the car body.
Check also the STOLA concept cars, they use RENSHAPE for rapid prototyping.
www.stola.it
I hope it helps
Italo
As a designer(that is style-wise rather than engineering, there are one or two of us y'know
), what I have to say is biased totally towards that side of the kit car industry, but I think valid all the same.
Some kits are over-priced, but this is mainly down to volumes involved as mentioned before. But volumes are linked to the amount being sold, which in turn is linked to the design and marketing of those vehicles.
By design, I am talking about the great number of kit cars which frankly, look a little odd to say the least. There's nothing wrong with being different, but there are a number where it is obvious that they are proportioned or detailed that way by mistake rather than intent. Us designers might sound like right ponces when they talk about our jobs, but there is more to it than just doing some pretty drawings, there are laws of proportion, detail and styling that take time to learn, and skill to get right. There is a wider market that kits could appeal to, but for the fact that, for want of a better phrase, they look like kit cars. It's interesting to note that some people who didn't like the original Elise accused it of 'looking like a kit car' as a derogatory term. Personally I love the Elise, but the state of design in the kit car industry has led to it being thought of in this way by many.
By marketing, I mean market research, or asking the great unwashed what they want. I feel I should mention the fact that a lot of kit cars are the 'dream car' for the company owner rather than the burning desire of the buying public. I think several kit companies have been started by people who want to be an automotive designer, but fail to grasp that a big part of that job is coming out with stuff that you may not necessarily like. If you want a dream car that no-one makes, then get out and build it. More power to your elbow for doing so. But if you want to start selling them to other people, then you're starting a business, not necessarily enjoying a hobby. A big part of any business is marketing, and just setting up shop selling something that you know you like but aren't sure if anyone else does is to invest a lot of your money in a business with no marketing at all.
Prototyping, development and tooling is expensive, simply because this is always divided by how many components will be sold. It's also why there are a number of different processes available for the same kind of product, to allow for different volumes. I will talk about one-off prototypes and low-volume runs to stay on-topic. First of all, I wouldn't recommend plaster for building the bodywork for either route. I've seen some great examples produced this way(most notably by Ed Roth), but it's messy, unhealthy and difficult. The main argument against it for me is build your body, sand it, look at it... then try to alter all the bits that don't look as good as you'd hoped and which you're just not keen on any more. See you in a month when you realise it will be easier to start from scratch.
A lot of prototype bodies are done in clay, that is a specialist mix of clay, wax and sulphur(just to make sure it smells like evil). Build your body(in much less time), smooth it off(with a lot less elbow grease), and if there are bits you don't like, just melt them, smooth them off, and start again! Easy as Jordan after 12 Bacardi Breezers! 
Plaster does have it's place in making the panels for a one-off though. I've seen some great results from pouring it over clay, taking it off once hard and laying up fibreglass inside of it(once you've sprayed the mould with button polish to make a seal between them, you want to get both bits out in one piece after all
). But as you might expect, plaster moulds won't last very long and they don't give very good results straight away, there is still a lot of work required. But of course if it's just a one-off it's not such a big concern.
There is another option, where you make a CAD model and feed it into a honking great machine which cuts the shape out of a huge block of foam or clay, but cost-wise it would keep us all awake tonight...
I should also mention that small consultancies such as us probably aren't as expensive as you might think, a lot of people hear about the big boys first and get frightened silly by them! If you're serious, have a good look around, and support your local small consultancy!
I do know someone who does this sort of prototyping, who I do some work with from time to time(not often enough, but automotive projects are few and far between unfortunately
). I need to ask him about bodyshell pricing, so if anyone really wants to know feel free to drop me an e-mail. If anyone has any other questions about anything else I've brought up above, feel free to e-mail me or ask on here as well.
), what I have to say is biased totally towards that side of the kit car industry, but I think valid all the same. Some kits are over-priced, but this is mainly down to volumes involved as mentioned before. But volumes are linked to the amount being sold, which in turn is linked to the design and marketing of those vehicles.
By design, I am talking about the great number of kit cars which frankly, look a little odd to say the least. There's nothing wrong with being different, but there are a number where it is obvious that they are proportioned or detailed that way by mistake rather than intent. Us designers might sound like right ponces when they talk about our jobs, but there is more to it than just doing some pretty drawings, there are laws of proportion, detail and styling that take time to learn, and skill to get right. There is a wider market that kits could appeal to, but for the fact that, for want of a better phrase, they look like kit cars. It's interesting to note that some people who didn't like the original Elise accused it of 'looking like a kit car' as a derogatory term. Personally I love the Elise, but the state of design in the kit car industry has led to it being thought of in this way by many.
By marketing, I mean market research, or asking the great unwashed what they want. I feel I should mention the fact that a lot of kit cars are the 'dream car' for the company owner rather than the burning desire of the buying public. I think several kit companies have been started by people who want to be an automotive designer, but fail to grasp that a big part of that job is coming out with stuff that you may not necessarily like. If you want a dream car that no-one makes, then get out and build it. More power to your elbow for doing so. But if you want to start selling them to other people, then you're starting a business, not necessarily enjoying a hobby. A big part of any business is marketing, and just setting up shop selling something that you know you like but aren't sure if anyone else does is to invest a lot of your money in a business with no marketing at all.
Prototyping, development and tooling is expensive, simply because this is always divided by how many components will be sold. It's also why there are a number of different processes available for the same kind of product, to allow for different volumes. I will talk about one-off prototypes and low-volume runs to stay on-topic. First of all, I wouldn't recommend plaster for building the bodywork for either route. I've seen some great examples produced this way(most notably by Ed Roth), but it's messy, unhealthy and difficult. The main argument against it for me is build your body, sand it, look at it... then try to alter all the bits that don't look as good as you'd hoped and which you're just not keen on any more. See you in a month when you realise it will be easier to start from scratch.
A lot of prototype bodies are done in clay, that is a specialist mix of clay, wax and sulphur(just to make sure it smells like evil
). Build your body(in much less time), smooth it off(with a lot less elbow grease), and if there are bits you don't like, just melt them, smooth them off, and start again! Easy as Jordan after 12 Bacardi Breezers! Plaster does have it's place in making the panels for a one-off though. I've seen some great results from pouring it over clay, taking it off once hard and laying up fibreglass inside of it(once you've sprayed the mould with button polish to make a seal between them, you want to get both bits out in one piece after all
). But as you might expect, plaster moulds won't last very long and they don't give very good results straight away, there is still a lot of work required. But of course if it's just a one-off it's not such a big concern. There is another option, where you make a CAD model and feed it into a honking great machine which cuts the shape out of a huge block of foam or clay, but cost-wise it would keep us all awake tonight...
I should also mention that small consultancies such as us probably aren't as expensive as you might think, a lot of people hear about the big boys first and get frightened silly by them! If you're serious, have a good look around, and support your local small consultancy!
I do know someone who does this sort of prototyping, who I do some work with from time to time(not often enough, but automotive projects are few and far between unfortunately
). I need to ask him about bodyshell pricing, so if anyone really wants to know feel free to drop me an e-mail. If anyone has any other questions about anything else I've brought up above, feel free to e-mail me or ask on here as well. D-Angle
Good reply and informative, but wonder if Cymtriks is trying to build a one-off prototype for personal use with the least amount of money, or intends to market the Kit?
For personal use and for a very cheap prototype nothing beats plaster but, like indicated it does have problems.
I would use styro-foam, cover it with polifiller and then resin it . I'm still talking of one-off prototypes.
Not as cheap but not that expensive....
Justin, nice website
Cheers
Italo
Good reply and informative, but wonder if Cymtriks is trying to build a one-off prototype for personal use with the least amount of money, or intends to market the Kit?
For personal use and for a very cheap prototype nothing beats plaster but, like indicated it does have problems.
I would use styro-foam, cover it with polifiller and then resin it . I'm still talking of one-off prototypes.
Not as cheap but not that expensive....
Justin, nice website
Cheers
Italo
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