RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review

RE: INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review

Wednesday 23rd February 2022

INEOS Grenadier prototype | PH Review

Is this the true Defender of the faith or has INEOS bitten off more than it can chew?


Limited drives in pre-production prototypes rarely answer many questions about a hotly anticipated new car, and that's especially true when the entire experience takes place in the churned-up mud of what is, not to put too fine a point on it, a French slag heap. But even a limited turn in the INEOS Grenadier put a definitive response against the most important query: yes, it's serious.

Because the early chapters of the Grenadier story read like an origin story crafted by an expensive PR agency. Wealthy industrialist Jim Radcliffe mourns the death of the old Land Rover Defender, gathers a group of like-minded friends in a favourite pub and illuminates the collective lightbulb with 'let's do our own, then.' The project is named after the boozer and co-branded with Radcliffe's globe-spanning chemical concern. INEOS then fights (and wins) a court case with Land Rover over the rights to produce something so obviously inspired by the square lines of the Defender before the project moves into what must have been a very strenuous cheque-signing stage.

Britain's many low-volume carmakers showed an obvious path for the car to take at this point - modest investment, small numbers and a sizeable price tag. But INEOS decided to do it the expensive, risky way, with development led by Magna Steyr in Austria and then, soon afterwards, confirmed that power would come from BMW engines and production would happen in the former Daimler plant in Hambach, France - a controversial development given Radcliffe's public enthusiasm for Brexit.

Leaving national pride aside, the decision to locate in the former Smart ForTwo plant made lots of commercial sense. Daimler had just spent a nine-figure Euro sum refitting Hambach to build the Mercedes EQA and EQB but then relocated production to another plant. INEOS acquired one of Europe's most modern car plants, including dozens of unused production robots, at what was undoubtedly a knock down price. Production of ForTwo EVs will continue there for several years, with the juxtaposition of the two designs in the final inspection area an odd one. But compared to the dingy factory where Land Rover assembled the classic Defender the contrast is almost total.

The chance to see prototype build Grenadiers in various stages of construction also proves the new car is substantially different from the one that inspired it. Like the Defender it sits on a ladder frame chassis and has substantial live axles at each end. But the need to satisfy modern safety standards means that the underbody structure is far more elaborate, a point made by the intricate shape of the secondary metalwork that sits beneath the familiar square-topped front wings to give them the deformation necessary for pedestrian impact standards. It's bigger and wider, too - actually looking more like a W461 Mercedes G-Class than a ur-Defender from many angles.

While most of it impresses, but some details don't. The cars in the factory (and the hard-beaten prototypes later) feature sizeable gaps where bumpers meet bodywork, the ones at the back large enough to make it look like a finishing piece is missing and getting me remembering some of the old jokes about the P38 Range Rover's similarly breezy apertures. It's hardly a deal breaker for a rufty-tufty off-roader, but it is a detail critics are likely to latch onto.

The underbody is more reassuring, this featuring a solid looking transfer case to allow the selection of high and low range. A centre locking differential will be standard, with electronically controlled front and rear diff locks optional - all details that closely mirror the spec of the old Defender. But the Grenadier's powerplants are very different, with a straight choice between a pair of bought-in BMW 3.0-litre six-cylinders, a 281hp petrol and a 245hp diesel. An eight-speed ZF autobox is standard on all versions.

The other thing missing is much of the switchable tech common to more expensive SUVs. INEOS says the finished Grenadier will get an off-road and wading mode, but there are no clever active modes, adaptive dampers or variable height suspension. The idea is to offer the sort of uncompromised off-roader that makes a virtue of simplicity, something the company reckons will be core to the Grenadier's appeal in more remote parts of the world.

Even by the standards of pre-production drives, my first experience of the Grenadier is a limited one. There are both petrol and diesel cars here, but the luck of the draw gives me a petrol one. Not that there is going to be much chance to experience its greater performance with the entire drive taking place in low range with the centre differential locked - the prototypes don't have the optional front and rear lockers.

Right, the basics. The Grenadier's cabin feels much more spacious than that of the Defender, and with the driving position isn't uncomfortably offset. The prototype's beaten-to-hell interior was entirely pre-production - most of the controls on the centre console didn't do anything and it didn't even have a working heater. But the basic design was both obvious and, to touchscreen sceptics, pleasingly easy to understand. (The switch layout immediately made me think of the CRM114 scrambler in Dr. Strangelove.)

BMW's chunky automatic gear selector is immediately familiar, although there is a chunky mechanical lever for the high/low ratio switch next to it. And in a neat confirmation of the Grenadier's back-to-basic credentials it is being launched with both a ratchet handbrake and a proper key rather than a wireless one. Instrumentation is limited; speed and revs are reported by the central screen with what I thought was a smaller digital instrument pack in front of the steering wheel just housing warning lights.

The off-road courses created for media events are normally designed very carefully to flatter the cars featured, and to show off their talents without the indignity of getting struck. That definitely wasn't the case at Grenadier's location, around a former mine near Crehange in France featuring a bleak moonscape of slippery, gelatinous mud. I managed to get properly bogged down several times, although never so badly that I can't extract the Grenadier and then conquer the obstacle with either more speed or an improved technique.

It's very good at gentle progress. The accelerator pedal isn't too keen at the top end, but modest pressure brings the engine's solid mid-range into play and a correspondingly muscular exhaust note. But the drive is definitely a taste rather than a meal; the highest speed I see during my time in the car is a dizzying 25km/h, and the highest gear ratio is third.

The prototype had plenty of pre-production foibles. The gearbox clunked and sometimes snatched as torque came and went, and bigger throttle openings occasionally caused the engine to bog down briefly. I also found it surprisingly hard to persuade it to turn, even taking account of the ultra-slippery surface and its tendency to clog the tread pattern of the M+S tyres. It felt as if the front differential was locked, even though it wasn't. It was only later that I realised that almost all of my off-roading in the last couple of years has been done in modern Land Rover products, with Terrain Response systems invisibly tightening their lines with selective differential locking and brake intervention. Similarly the first time the Grenadier got bogged on a muddy ascent my fingers started looking for the non-existent height adjustment control to check it was fully raised. Which, as the suspension is entirely passive, was completely pointless.

This isn't a criticism. The Grenadier's lack of active technology is key to both its appeal and what INEOS hopes will be the durability for use in parts of the world far away from well-equipped dealer workshops. But it does mean that anyone who has grown more used to the SUVs packed with such features are going to need to to some readjustment; the prototype even lacking the speed regulating hill-descent control which is close to a segment standard fit these days. In that regard it does feel close to the lack of frills that categorised the original Defender until its retirement.

The other unanswered question is the one that Radcliffe is betting a chunk of his huge fortune on: will there be enough global demand to make the Grenadier a success? Fully-equipped car factories don't come cheap and although INEOS has said the project would be profitable at 25,000 cars a year it is clear that Hambach has capacity to make many more than that. That is an annual volume that the last Defender rarely got close to inside this century.

The INEOS is set to be sold in more territories, including the United States, but is still being produced by an all-new company, and is set to carry pricing that seems set to start in the UK (for the two-seat commercial version) in the high £40Ks. The stakes really couldn't be higher. This initial experience suggests the Grenadier can deal with off-road adventure. It's the 'everything else' bit that still carries the question mark.


Specification | INEOS Grenadier prototype

Engine: 2998cc straight six, twin turbocharged
Transmission: Eight-speed auto, all-wheel drive, selectable low-range
Power (hp): 281 @ TBC
Torque (lb ft): 332 @ TBC
0-60mph: TBC
Top speed: TBC
Weight: c. 2700kg
MPG: TBC
CO2: TBC
Price: TBC

Author
Discussion

ruairi50

Original Poster:

247 posts

171 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
Looks like a Chinese Knock off. Has looks of a Santana PS.10 / Defender. If they get the road manners & the Pricing right
Should sell well

Cold

15,570 posts

97 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
Various other testers have suggested the commercial will be around £47-£48k inc which is a couple of grand more than the starting price of a Defender.
You've got to really want one to spend that.

Paracetamol

4,234 posts

251 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
Firstly, I have no association to Inos but was able to ride in the car last year …and have to say I was blown away.

This article comes across as negative and almost sensational.

Quite frankly no one with an SUV actually uses it as an SUV and those that need one soon realise the delicacy and complexity built into the new ones. It’s much the same on saloon cars too.

Instead Inos have gone on all out on things that actually matter. A beautiful drivetrain . Exceptional strength of chassis and properly considered articulation etc. the package felt tight and well engineered in the way a Rolex Submariner does. The interior is great too. Particularly dear comfort.

From where I was sitting it’s resulted in a car that will also be very comfortable on road too.

It bears little resemblance to a Defender beyond its silhouette.

I suspect it will be an accidental hit as it’s actually very desirable when you get close up to it..not what the Founder wanted I suspect..but if it pays the bills..

Only real issue is the emotional sales may wane without an EV drivetrain and I don’t believe it can be an effective one (weight , frontal area etc)

leef44

4,758 posts

160 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
@paracetemol, that is very interesting feedback. It sounds like the formula has paid off.

Risking turning this thread into a political one, I can't get past the fact that this entrepreneur, with his invesment resources and industrial management talent did not make the effort to make this is a British built vehicle.

I know it makes complete business sense the direction which he took, but with him championing the B-word, the nation relied on billionaire business entrepreneurs like himself to make this nation successful by putting that extra investment in. Even if it cost more than the cheaper ready made route which he took, he could have put the effort in and made that difference.

smifffymoto

4,771 posts

212 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
It’s not aimed at the school run ,that’s for sure. In Africa,Australia and the Americas I see it selling very well,also as an overlander for the adventurous European it also has huge appeal.

Billy_Whizzzz

2,135 posts

150 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
leef44 said:
@paracetemol, that is very interesting feedback. It sounds like the formula has paid off.

Risking turning this thread into a political one, I can't get past the fact that this entrepreneur, with his invesment resources and industrial management talent did not make the effort to make this is a British built vehicle.

I know it makes complete business sense the direction which he took, but with him championing the B-word, the nation relied on billionaire business entrepreneurs like himself to make this nation successful by putting that extra investment in. Even if it cost more than the cheaper ready made route which he took, he could have put the effort in and made that difference.
Who cares where it was built? Why, through some weird accident of birth should it matter that it was built in the UK? Not only is the world a big place, but frankly the UK has built some
pretty rubbish things in the past. I have no want for this car and no interest in the company but makes total sense to built it and source components in a way that is most practical and pays no regard to a petty idea of a national border.

BarcelonaLewis

153 posts

143 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
leef44 said:
@paracetemol, that is very interesting feedback. It sounds like the formula has paid off.

Risking turning this thread into a political one, I can't get past the fact that this entrepreneur, with his invesment resources and industrial management talent did not make the effort to make this is a British built vehicle.

I know it makes complete business sense the direction which he took, but with him championing the B-word, the nation relied on billionaire business entrepreneurs like himself to make this nation successful by putting that extra investment in. Even if it cost more than the cheaper ready made route which he took, he could have put the effort in and made that difference.
My feelings exactly, and that decision to offshore really took any heart-over-head decision making that I may have done away. But, if it's coming in at almost £50k now, I imagine that setting up afresh in the UK, further from suppliers (and whacked with tax and challenges in post Brexit shipping) would have put it far higher, and so he was probably stuck Betta rock and a hard place.


smifffymoto

4,771 posts

212 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
It’s not aimed at the school run ,that’s for sure. In Africa,Australia and the Americas I see it selling very well,also as an overlander for the adventurous European it also has huge appeal.

covmutley

3,125 posts

197 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
They go to the trouble of designing a utilitarian chunky and unique dash, then just leave the curvy BMW gear selector.

I'm not one who has anything near old, but I couldn't live with that. Not that I'm the target audience anyway.

I guess it shows why this designing cars thing, whilst having to have parts fit across various models isn't easy.

But I'm not negative overall. It's a car, it's interesting and I hope to see a few on the roads.

Dynion Araf Uchaf

4,681 posts

230 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
Paracetamol said:
. Exceptional strength of chassis and properly considered articulation etc. the package felt tight and well engineered in the way a Rolex Submariner does. The interior is great too.
fking hell. Of course!
Very relatable analogy there rolleyes

RosscoPCole

3,419 posts

181 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
covmutley said:
They go to the trouble of designing a utilitarian chunky and unique dash, then just leave the curvy BMW gear selector.

I'm not one who has anything near old, but I couldn't live with that. Not that I'm the target audience anyway.

I guess it shows why this designing cars thing, whilst having to have parts fit across various models isn't easy.

But I'm not negative overall. It's a car, it's interesting and I hope to see a few on the roads.
If I remember correctly there were similar comments about the gear leaver on the new Morgan Plus 6 and Plus 4. The team at Morgan said that to design, manufacture and get a new lever through legislation was just too costly for what it is.

leef44

4,758 posts

160 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
RosscoPCole said:
covmutley said:
They go to the trouble of designing a utilitarian chunky and unique dash, then just leave the curvy BMW gear selector.

I'm not one who has anything near old, but I couldn't live with that. Not that I'm the target audience anyway.

I guess it shows why this designing cars thing, whilst having to have parts fit across various models isn't easy.

But I'm not negative overall. It's a car, it's interesting and I hope to see a few on the roads.
If I remember correctly there were similar comments about the gear leaver on the new Morgan Plus 6 and Plus 4. The team at Morgan said that to design, manufacture and get a new lever through legislation was just too costly for what it is.
That's an interesting point. However I'm with covmutley on this one. You see this on the Toyota Supra, the Morgan and now this. For BMW it is branding. For the driver, it is a reminder that you haven't really got a Toyota, Morgan or Ineos. And you keep getting reminded every time you look at the gear lever.

Out of interest, can you just screw it off and replace it with something of your choice?

Boringcarowner

90 posts

182 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
When first muted I was tempted by the £35k price range to replace my pickup. But with the commercial now starting at £48k plus vat, effectively £58k I assume a four seater will be more than this.

As the dragons say, for that reason I’m out

Dougmillarjnr

16 posts

67 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
I cant help but feel that is a vehicle of a previous era and the world has moved on. I appreciate that there is a lot of nostalgia for defender but they are bascially awful in many ways. (Yes i was unfortunate to own one)

Also as a designer myself it really does grate that a entirely new vehicle has bascially ripped off someone elses design. If you had the opportunity to design a new off roader from scratch where you were not burdened by your own previous design history, why create an exact facimile of an existing car. Its crazy and shows a complete lack of imagination, creativity and integrity.

Also, now that i am fully in rant mode, instead of developing a new car i cant help but feel his time could have been better spent addressing the fact he has spent a lifetime growing and profiting from a company that is a huge polluter. Their site in Grangemouth produces 60-75 billion plastic pellets everyday!

Ahhhhh thats better!!!


Ivan stewart

2,792 posts

43 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
At least it keeps its wheels on the ground most of the time, unlike the new pretender .


BarcelonaLewis

153 posts

143 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
smifffymoto said:
It’s not aimed at the school run ,that’s for sure. In Africa,Australia and the Americas I see it selling very well,also as an overlander for the adventurous European it also has huge appeal.
I don't see this selling where a Toyota 70 series is available, I'd certainly go with the LC.

Vee12V

1,359 posts

167 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
RosscoPCole said:
covmutley said:
They go to the trouble of designing a utilitarian chunky and unique dash, then just leave the curvy BMW gear selector.

I'm not one who has anything near old, but I couldn't live with that. Not that I'm the target audience anyway.

I guess it shows why this designing cars thing, whilst having to have parts fit across various models isn't easy.

But I'm not negative overall. It's a car, it's interesting and I hope to see a few on the roads.
If I remember correctly there were similar comments about the gear leaver on the new Morgan Plus 6 and Plus 4. The team at Morgan said that to design, manufacture and get a new lever through legislation was just too costly for what it is.
From what I've been told it costs hundreds of thousands to develop a new one. EQ why many don't bother. Toyota could though.

Gareth9702

372 posts

139 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
I write the same comment whenever I read a review of the Grenadier by a journalist who cannot see beyond his own school run. There are many places in the world - including Australia - where a vehicle like this is really needed. Ineos have been very astute in creating a plan for a servicing network in the bush- so overcoming one of Toyota's advantages. The relative simplicity of the mechanicals are a major advantage here. For many it will be a choice at the price suggested between an old Lancdcruiser or a new Grenadier. If it gets a foothold in the market, and everything suggests it will, it will become a best-seller. The Defender is in demand for urban style but is seen as to fragile and unreliable for serious use.

GT9

7,531 posts

179 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
leef44 said:
That's an interesting point. However I'm with covmutley on this one. You see this on the Toyota Supra, the Morgan and now this. For BMW it is branding. For the driver, it is a reminder that you haven't really got a Toyota, Morgan or Ineos. And you keep getting reminded every time you look at the gear lever.

Out of interest, can you just screw it off and replace it with something of your choice?
The lever is a completely integrated part of the gearbox with a button to engage park, a release button to move the selector, a lateral pivoting motion to access Sport mode and a longitudinal pivoting motion to both select the drive mode and change gears manually in Sport.

There is no way you can just screw on something to replace all these functions and interface with the BMW controls. As others have pointed out, to engineer a replacement and certify safety and reliability would be expensive in the extreme.

BMW will not supply nor warranty the box without the integral lever, so it’s academic anyway. It’s nothing to do with branding.

chrisironside

761 posts

169 months

Wednesday 23rd February 2022
quotequote all
I like all the Defender looking bits (so no issues from the side or back), but where it departs a little more at the front, it's got a bit of a Soviet/90s vibe about it. Not a fan of that!

I suspect that if I wanted a new-old Defender I'd get a Twisted and not one of these. They should have done something a little more original imo.