RAC Rally - Great Times
Discussion
I’m new to this section of the forum so apologies if this has been done before. When it comes to motor sport, Motorcycle Racing and especially the TT is my thing. However, I did have an interest in Rallying in the eighties and early 90’s.
Coming from Chester I remember my Dad taking me to see the cars off in Chester, that must of been the late 70’s and I’d of been 5 at the time. I also remember camping in Oulton Park with a mate in 1987 to watch the 2 stages held there. I also went to see some stages in Wales in the late 80’s and early 90’s before totally losing interest in Rallying.
However, seeing a number of Rallies recently come up on YouTube from the 80’s, it’s suddenly reignited my interest. What is the current status of modern Rallying in Britain and why (it appears) that such an enormous event is no more.
Coming from Chester I remember my Dad taking me to see the cars off in Chester, that must of been the late 70’s and I’d of been 5 at the time. I also remember camping in Oulton Park with a mate in 1987 to watch the 2 stages held there. I also went to see some stages in Wales in the late 80’s and early 90’s before totally losing interest in Rallying.
However, seeing a number of Rallies recently come up on YouTube from the 80’s, it’s suddenly reignited my interest. What is the current status of modern Rallying in Britain and why (it appears) that such an enormous event is no more.
There are multiple issues. But lostsof good things too.
The main one at club level is there were several deaths a few years ago in Scotland, this impacted insurance and the like hugely, meaning on some venues, notably private single venues it become intolerable to have spectators present for insurance reason, if you were spotted you could literally cause the event to be canned. This does not happen anywhere else in the world sadly, only here in good old insurance mad Britain.
Even on bigger rallies in forests you were prevented really from free roaming and put into "pens" if you like, large designated areas where you can watch, this again was linked to insurance from the organiser. That is the main difference. You could still do it, but it was potentially a b
king ensuing!
On stuff like the RAC you could wander, and you still can on some rallies, the recent Wyedean, being very close to population was notable, but from my evidence they were running it close in terms of some places. The MSA are very, very touchy about any rallying stuff to be honest, venues get scarcer due to the costs and entries are very expensive, but continue to be popular, the sport is not dying.
As for the sport in the UK, our boom time really ended when Colin and Richard died, that was peak WRC in the UK. Since then the RAC just ended up in Wales, backed by Wales and once their funding was dropped we have not had an WRC round here since. We have had ERC rounds, in Scotland and recently a very good rally in Aberystwyth on closed roads that is doing very well.
Some other good things have happened, there are now a limited number of closed road rallies in England, like there are in Ireland and the rest of Europe, they do very well, and as you can imagine are horrendously difficult to organise and get the locals onside, plenty have been mooted but not many have actually happened.
In terms of the British series, it is vastly different to before, but after some rough years has stabilised, I doubt it is really going to catapult drivers into WRC, as there are so few seats, but we still have good representation globally there.
Another good thing is the Roger Albert Clark rally which start this week, it is a historic event run just like the old RAC, it used to be more national ,but now mainly concentrates on Wales and the North primarily, meaning Kielder and south Scotland etc.
It is a great event very well put together and well attended. The quality of the field goes up and down, for instance last time we had Kris Meeke, Oli Solberg etc, this year not such high quality./ It is very British aswell, no showing off, no show, just old cars driven very slowly or very well!!!
The main one at club level is there were several deaths a few years ago in Scotland, this impacted insurance and the like hugely, meaning on some venues, notably private single venues it become intolerable to have spectators present for insurance reason, if you were spotted you could literally cause the event to be canned. This does not happen anywhere else in the world sadly, only here in good old insurance mad Britain.
Even on bigger rallies in forests you were prevented really from free roaming and put into "pens" if you like, large designated areas where you can watch, this again was linked to insurance from the organiser. That is the main difference. You could still do it, but it was potentially a b
king ensuing!On stuff like the RAC you could wander, and you still can on some rallies, the recent Wyedean, being very close to population was notable, but from my evidence they were running it close in terms of some places. The MSA are very, very touchy about any rallying stuff to be honest, venues get scarcer due to the costs and entries are very expensive, but continue to be popular, the sport is not dying.
As for the sport in the UK, our boom time really ended when Colin and Richard died, that was peak WRC in the UK. Since then the RAC just ended up in Wales, backed by Wales and once their funding was dropped we have not had an WRC round here since. We have had ERC rounds, in Scotland and recently a very good rally in Aberystwyth on closed roads that is doing very well.
Some other good things have happened, there are now a limited number of closed road rallies in England, like there are in Ireland and the rest of Europe, they do very well, and as you can imagine are horrendously difficult to organise and get the locals onside, plenty have been mooted but not many have actually happened.
In terms of the British series, it is vastly different to before, but after some rough years has stabilised, I doubt it is really going to catapult drivers into WRC, as there are so few seats, but we still have good representation globally there.
Another good thing is the Roger Albert Clark rally which start this week, it is a historic event run just like the old RAC, it used to be more national ,but now mainly concentrates on Wales and the North primarily, meaning Kielder and south Scotland etc.
It is a great event very well put together and well attended. The quality of the field goes up and down, for instance last time we had Kris Meeke, Oli Solberg etc, this year not such high quality./ It is very British aswell, no showing off, no show, just old cars driven very slowly or very well!!!
The British Rally Championship is alive and well, and National, and club level events are doing okay - there were some events cancelled because of closed forests due to storm damage early this year, but many of the championships are planing a return in the spring.
Work continues to get a World Rally Championship event back in the UK - with Aberdeen leading the way at present - more on that here:
https://ebooks.motorsportuk.org/revolution-novembe...
As mentioned above, the Roger Albert Clark rally is the closest to the 1980s/90s that you recall. Worth as look.
https://ebooks.motorsportuk.org/revolution-october...
Work continues to get a World Rally Championship event back in the UK - with Aberdeen leading the way at present - more on that here:
https://ebooks.motorsportuk.org/revolution-novembe...
As mentioned above, the Roger Albert Clark rally is the closest to the 1980s/90s that you recall. Worth as look.
https://ebooks.motorsportuk.org/revolution-october...
My own experience echoes that of the OP. I grew up in North Wales, so the classic Penmachno, Clocaenog and Hafren stages (among others) of the RAC were within easy reach. We'd occasionally skip school when the schedule wasn't too friendly, and would go to Chester for the start when it was there. We'd also occasionally head to Grizedale, just for a change. This continued from c1978 through to 2013, by which time I'd moved away and was no longer anywhere close to the likely route.
I think what marked the end of serious interest for me, was when the cars moved away from being something that you could realistically buy. Now, I loved the Group B era and freely acknowledge that those were not cars you could realistically buy, but the more recent crop of lookalike Polos, Hyundais, Fiestas and Yarises do nothing for me. Technologically they're fantastic weapons, but I just can't relate to them.
Another nail in the coffin of the RAC / Network Q / Rally GB / whatever it was called that year, was when WRC rules shifted away from the gruelling, 4 / 5 day round-the-clock events.
I too have been watching a lot of old rallying on YouTube recently, and it's brought back some happy memories. I've also seen some more recent historic rallying (like the Roger Albert Clark) and it's great. I'm pleased there still appears to be a thriving rally scene in the UK: it's been 12 years since I trudged through a forest to watch rallying, but I may need to go back and try it again now.
I think what marked the end of serious interest for me, was when the cars moved away from being something that you could realistically buy. Now, I loved the Group B era and freely acknowledge that those were not cars you could realistically buy, but the more recent crop of lookalike Polos, Hyundais, Fiestas and Yarises do nothing for me. Technologically they're fantastic weapons, but I just can't relate to them.
Another nail in the coffin of the RAC / Network Q / Rally GB / whatever it was called that year, was when WRC rules shifted away from the gruelling, 4 / 5 day round-the-clock events.
I too have been watching a lot of old rallying on YouTube recently, and it's brought back some happy memories. I've also seen some more recent historic rallying (like the Roger Albert Clark) and it's great. I'm pleased there still appears to be a thriving rally scene in the UK: it's been 12 years since I trudged through a forest to watch rallying, but I may need to go back and try it again now.
bergclimber34 said:
There are multiple issues. But lostsof good things too.
The main one at club level is there were several deaths a few years ago in Scotland, this impacted insurance and the like hugely, meaning on some venues, notably private single venues it become intolerable to have spectators present for insurance reason, if you were spotted you could literally cause the event to be canned. This does not happen anywhere else in the world sadly, only here in good old insurance mad Britain.
Even on bigger rallies in forests you were prevented really from free roaming and put into "pens" if you like, large designated areas where you can watch, this again was linked to insurance from the organiser. That is the main difference. You could still do it, but it was potentially a bking ensuing!
On stuff like the RAC you could wander, and you still can on some rallies, the recent Wyedean, being very close to population was notable, but from my evidence they were running it close in terms of some places. The MSA are very, very touchy about any rallying stuff to be honest, venues get scarcer due to the costs and entries are very expensive, but continue to be popular, the sport is not dying.
As for the sport in the UK, our boom time really ended when Colin and Richard died, that was peak WRC in the UK. Since then the RAC just ended up in Wales, backed by Wales and once their funding was dropped we have not had an WRC round here since. We have had ERC rounds, in Scotland and recently a very good rally in Aberystwyth on closed roads that is doing very well.
Some other good things have happened, there are now a limited number of closed road rallies in England, like there are in Ireland and the rest of Europe, they do very well, and as you can imagine are horrendously difficult to organise and get the locals onside, plenty have been mooted but not many have actually happened.
In terms of the British series, it is vastly different to before, but after some rough years has stabilised, I doubt it is really going to catapult drivers into WRC, as there are so few seats, but we still have good representation globally there.
Another good thing is the Roger Albert Clark rally which start this week, it is a historic event run just like the old RAC, it used to be more national ,but now mainly concentrates on Wales and the North primarily, meaning Kielder and south Scotland etc.
It is a great event very well put together and well attended. The quality of the field goes up and down, for instance last time we had Kris Meeke, Oli Solberg etc, this year not such high quality./ It is very British aswell, no showing off, no show, just old cars driven very slowly or very well!!!
I'm not sure I'd even cite insurance. It's always the reason bandied around by clubs saying something isn't possible but I am not convinced. Because , 1 I very much doubt whether a policy is that specific and 2 the fallacy has grown that if someone is killed the club is automatically responsible. And the law doesn't work like that - a club is only liable if it has failed to take reasonable care - and banning all spectators is not reasonable care, as evidenced by the scores of events which allow them .The main one at club level is there were several deaths a few years ago in Scotland, this impacted insurance and the like hugely, meaning on some venues, notably private single venues it become intolerable to have spectators present for insurance reason, if you were spotted you could literally cause the event to be canned. This does not happen anywhere else in the world sadly, only here in good old insurance mad Britain.
Even on bigger rallies in forests you were prevented really from free roaming and put into "pens" if you like, large designated areas where you can watch, this again was linked to insurance from the organiser. That is the main difference. You could still do it, but it was potentially a b
king ensuing!On stuff like the RAC you could wander, and you still can on some rallies, the recent Wyedean, being very close to population was notable, but from my evidence they were running it close in terms of some places. The MSA are very, very touchy about any rallying stuff to be honest, venues get scarcer due to the costs and entries are very expensive, but continue to be popular, the sport is not dying.
As for the sport in the UK, our boom time really ended when Colin and Richard died, that was peak WRC in the UK. Since then the RAC just ended up in Wales, backed by Wales and once their funding was dropped we have not had an WRC round here since. We have had ERC rounds, in Scotland and recently a very good rally in Aberystwyth on closed roads that is doing very well.
Some other good things have happened, there are now a limited number of closed road rallies in England, like there are in Ireland and the rest of Europe, they do very well, and as you can imagine are horrendously difficult to organise and get the locals onside, plenty have been mooted but not many have actually happened.
In terms of the British series, it is vastly different to before, but after some rough years has stabilised, I doubt it is really going to catapult drivers into WRC, as there are so few seats, but we still have good representation globally there.
Another good thing is the Roger Albert Clark rally which start this week, it is a historic event run just like the old RAC, it used to be more national ,but now mainly concentrates on Wales and the North primarily, meaning Kielder and south Scotland etc.
It is a great event very well put together and well attended. The quality of the field goes up and down, for instance last time we had Kris Meeke, Oli Solberg etc, this year not such high quality./ It is very British aswell, no showing off, no show, just old cars driven very slowly or very well!!!
I looked into the MSUK guidance after being kettled in a tiny area of Dalby forest and asking the club why was it was stopping me watching elsewhere. Oh , it's what MSUK say , we are only following their diktat that all spectators have to be contained . Except the MSUK said nothing of the sort ,and the regs went so far as to say that while spectator managementwas important , and popular or exceptionally dangerous spots need intense management, it was acknowledged that rallies would get forseeably get spectators elsewhere . It's one of the roles of the course car to spot any groups of spectators standing where they shouldn't but there is no legal ban from MSUK on spectators elsewhere - they are a fact of life.
And most of the fatalities occur on road rallies - very high speeds and , crucially , not trees to hide behind .I've marshalled and watched forest rallies since the days when Escort Twin Cams were a new thing and I have never once felt I was at risk
coppice said:
I'm not sure I'd even cite insurance. It's always the reason bandied around by clubs saying something isn't possible but I am not convinced. Because , 1 I very much doubt whether a policy is that specific and 2 the fallacy has grown that if someone is killed the club is automatically responsible. And the law doesn't work like that - a club is only liable if it has failed to take reasonable care - and banning all spectators is not reasonable care, as evidenced by the scores of events which allow them .
I looked into the MSUK guidance after being kettled in a tiny area of Dalby forest and asking the club why was it was stopping me watching elsewhere. Oh , it's what MSUK say , we are only following their diktat that all spectators have to be contained . Except the MSUK said nothing of the sort ,and the regs went so far as to say that while spectator managementwas important , and popular or exceptionally dangerous spots need intense management, it was acknowledged that rallies would get forseeably get spectators elsewhere . It's one of the roles of the course car to spot any groups of spectators standing where they shouldn't but there is no legal ban from MSUK on spectators elsewhere - they are a fact of life.
And most of the fatalities occur on road rallies - very high speeds and , crucially , not trees to hide behind .I've marshalled and watched forest rallies since the days when Escort Twin Cams were a new thing and I have never once felt I was at risk
Just because you are not convinced that insurance isn't an issue, I can assure you it is. not allowing spectators at some venues has nothing to do with MSUK it is often the land owner insurance that insists on no spectators.I looked into the MSUK guidance after being kettled in a tiny area of Dalby forest and asking the club why was it was stopping me watching elsewhere. Oh , it's what MSUK say , we are only following their diktat that all spectators have to be contained . Except the MSUK said nothing of the sort ,and the regs went so far as to say that while spectator managementwas important , and popular or exceptionally dangerous spots need intense management, it was acknowledged that rallies would get forseeably get spectators elsewhere . It's one of the roles of the course car to spot any groups of spectators standing where they shouldn't but there is no legal ban from MSUK on spectators elsewhere - they are a fact of life.
And most of the fatalities occur on road rallies - very high speeds and , crucially , not trees to hide behind .I've marshalled and watched forest rallies since the days when Escort Twin Cams were a new thing and I have never once felt I was at risk
Just look at this statement from MSUK regarding road rallies (and that was issued before the competitor fatality on a road rally in Wales in November) Not going into details but it came about after an accident involving a spectator.
Again, just because you haven't felt at risk in a forest rally, it doesn't mean you weren't at risk.
It is not necessarily about you being hurt, it is about the venue having to have the insurance necessary to cover that, this is not Ireland where road racing has been suffering due to venues struggling to get insurance for rider and spectator injury or death, this is a different thing borne about from people being killed now a long time ago due to many reasons.
Everybody has to play a part, there are areas in the country now like Clumber Park that have no forest rallying, all sorts of reasons, it was a vibrant rally area until the early 00s., now nothing. We are lucky we have places like Wales where rallying is almost a national sport, and the lakes and Scotland were there seems to be more acceptance of forest rallying.
I do not like circuit rallies much as they just seem to be rallysprints really, but even abroad they are basically a single venue speed rally on private or public roads not a circuit sprint like the MSV events, they have their place just not for me.
Because of the Scotland fatalities MSUK were very clear that rallying had to be done better or it would cease to exist, it has to a huge extent in some places, especially for hardcore fans like me that would attend a few singe venues every year that is pretty much gone now but we have gained aswell, with public road rallies, these are very tough to set up and organise but some are doing very well, some have fallen away too, it is a tough gig.
To be honest the Roger has the balance about right, you can free roam, without too much issue but you will be called out for standing somewhere daft, and the course cars are overly obsessive about telling people to stand far back, often in place where there really is no risk, but that is their job, what you do after they pass is largely up to you and you can use your experience to gauge this.
I have stood right next to a stage in Kershope as cars pass at 105 mph and felt no danger, I have also had to leave a stage mid run and felt acutely unsafe as I did not have a torch and was having to find safe places to stand as cars went by, you learn as you go. Organisers could do better with advice like this I think. But they would simply rather you not go.
I have never forgotten a front cover from people who should know better in MN, that was talking about this and they showed a picture of a car exiting a bend with a bloke with a camera in a ditch facing away from the car that was behind him, with a woman and a pram in the background, that was a hugely irresponsible picture from a publication who used to be the Bible of rallying and I never bought it again, as I could only imagine what drivers, organisers, MSUK people thought when they saw that in Tesco etc. This all from a man who sold his soul years ago to money men.
We all have a part to play, I dont like it, if I get hit by a rally car in a forest, that is on me, sadly the world is not like that anymore and even when people have obviously clearly done the wrong thing as happened on that fateful Jim Clark stage years ago , it can still have huge repercussions
Everybody has to play a part, there are areas in the country now like Clumber Park that have no forest rallying, all sorts of reasons, it was a vibrant rally area until the early 00s., now nothing. We are lucky we have places like Wales where rallying is almost a national sport, and the lakes and Scotland were there seems to be more acceptance of forest rallying.
I do not like circuit rallies much as they just seem to be rallysprints really, but even abroad they are basically a single venue speed rally on private or public roads not a circuit sprint like the MSV events, they have their place just not for me.
Because of the Scotland fatalities MSUK were very clear that rallying had to be done better or it would cease to exist, it has to a huge extent in some places, especially for hardcore fans like me that would attend a few singe venues every year that is pretty much gone now but we have gained aswell, with public road rallies, these are very tough to set up and organise but some are doing very well, some have fallen away too, it is a tough gig.
To be honest the Roger has the balance about right, you can free roam, without too much issue but you will be called out for standing somewhere daft, and the course cars are overly obsessive about telling people to stand far back, often in place where there really is no risk, but that is their job, what you do after they pass is largely up to you and you can use your experience to gauge this.
I have stood right next to a stage in Kershope as cars pass at 105 mph and felt no danger, I have also had to leave a stage mid run and felt acutely unsafe as I did not have a torch and was having to find safe places to stand as cars went by, you learn as you go. Organisers could do better with advice like this I think. But they would simply rather you not go.
I have never forgotten a front cover from people who should know better in MN, that was talking about this and they showed a picture of a car exiting a bend with a bloke with a camera in a ditch facing away from the car that was behind him, with a woman and a pram in the background, that was a hugely irresponsible picture from a publication who used to be the Bible of rallying and I never bought it again, as I could only imagine what drivers, organisers, MSUK people thought when they saw that in Tesco etc. This all from a man who sold his soul years ago to money men.
We all have a part to play, I dont like it, if I get hit by a rally car in a forest, that is on me, sadly the world is not like that anymore and even when people have obviously clearly done the wrong thing as happened on that fateful Jim Clark stage years ago , it can still have huge repercussions
"I have stood right next to a stage in Kershope as cars pass at 105 mph and felt no danger, I have also had to leave a stage mid run and felt acutely unsafe as I did not have a torch and was having to find safe places to stand as cars went by, you learn as you go. Organisers could do better with advice like this I think. But they would simply rather you not go."
It's idiotic acts like the above that jeopardise rallies. Leaving no room for error. RAC last week a lot of people walking out of the stage before it was completed. Thoughtless, foolish and selfish.
It's idiotic acts like the above that jeopardise rallies. Leaving no room for error. RAC last week a lot of people walking out of the stage before it was completed. Thoughtless, foolish and selfish.
I think you might need to understand what I meant before jumping to conclusions.
Sometimes you have to leave a stage for some reason, be it to get elsewhere or to get home or because of an emergency.
You were not with me, you were not there, you can not therefore comment on what I was doing or feeling or why I did it. Nothing happened, I just felt a little exposed which was a thrill and a shock!!
it was simply a necessary thing to do to get on the road to go to Carlisle for a hotel closing time.
So I would appreciate less snarly stuff and more read between the lines OK.
Regarding safety cars and the like, last week they stopped just about at every group of people and said something, in one case I and a group were up a bank about 5 feet high, 10 metres from the stage edge and were still "told to step back" Some of it borders on ridiculous, some of it is fair. I use my head.
Most of us rally fans know the risks, are fully aware of the dynamics of cars and what is likely if they crash or spin, My mate has been watching for 50 years and never been close to trouble, helped a few people out last weekend and the crews were glad of it, at times the marshals did absolutely nothing, I suppose you are going to say that was fine? In fact at one point a group of us were shouting at them to do something as half of them were having coffee, talking to mates, wandering down the stage when we were helping crews get going or just pushing a car to enable it to get grip.
Sometimes you have to leave a stage for some reason, be it to get elsewhere or to get home or because of an emergency.
You were not with me, you were not there, you can not therefore comment on what I was doing or feeling or why I did it. Nothing happened, I just felt a little exposed which was a thrill and a shock!!
it was simply a necessary thing to do to get on the road to go to Carlisle for a hotel closing time.
So I would appreciate less snarly stuff and more read between the lines OK.
Regarding safety cars and the like, last week they stopped just about at every group of people and said something, in one case I and a group were up a bank about 5 feet high, 10 metres from the stage edge and were still "told to step back" Some of it borders on ridiculous, some of it is fair. I use my head.
Most of us rally fans know the risks, are fully aware of the dynamics of cars and what is likely if they crash or spin, My mate has been watching for 50 years and never been close to trouble, helped a few people out last weekend and the crews were glad of it, at times the marshals did absolutely nothing, I suppose you are going to say that was fine? In fact at one point a group of us were shouting at them to do something as half of them were having coffee, talking to mates, wandering down the stage when we were helping crews get going or just pushing a car to enable it to get grip.
Drumroll said:
Just because you are not convinced that insurance isn't an issue, I can assure you it is. not allowing spectators at some venues has nothing to do with MSUK it is often the land owner insurance that insists on no spectators.
Just look at this statement from MSUK regarding road rallies (and that was issued before the competitor fatality on a road rally in Wales in November) Not going into details but it came about after an accident involving a spectator.
Again, just because you haven't felt at risk in a forest rally, it doesn't mean you weren't at risk.
I was talking about forest rallies primarily , where most land is owned by the Forestry Commission. If you can point to a clause in their PL insurance which bars spectators from rallies run by third party clubs with ther own PL insurance I'd be interested to see it . Even on privately owned land it should be possible - in fact normal practice - for the club to indemnify the owner against any claim under its own insurance . Just look at this statement from MSUK regarding road rallies (and that was issued before the competitor fatality on a road rally in Wales in November) Not going into details but it came about after an accident involving a spectator.
Again, just because you haven't felt at risk in a forest rally, it doesn't mean you weren't at risk.
coppice said:
I was talking about forest rallies primarily , where most land is owned by the Forestry Commission. If you can point to a clause in their PL insurance which bars spectators from rallies run by third party clubs with ther own PL insurance I'd be interested to see it . Even on privately owned land it should be possible - in fact normal practice - for the club to indemnify the owner against any claim under its own insurance .
It is not normal practice, as you can't indemnify a land owner. Virtually all clubs run under the MSUK insurance for events, so it is a bit of a mute point. Unless of course you can show me a club that takes on all legal responsibilities and still runs under an MSUK permit.Talking specifically about forest rallies I have known stages be non spectator because of concerns over nesting birds or PR issues etc. And no the forestry Commission insurance doesn't specifically exclude spectators (the question would always be where does going for in a walk/ bike ride etc end and being a spectator begin. We had a group of riders on the Trackrod rally who couldn't follow the route they wanted so stayed with us to watch the rally), but that doesn't mean they don't put other restrictions on the use of forests.
But then again I have never known a forest rally to ban spectators purely on insurance grounds.
Look into the details of the Jim Clark fatality in 2014 and see where liability was decided to lay. So please don't try and say it has nothing to do with insurance.
coppice said:
I'm not sure I'd even cite insurance. It's always the reason bandied around by clubs saying something isn't possible but I am not convinced. Because , 1 I very much doubt whether a policy is that specific and 2 the fallacy has grown that if someone is killed the club is automatically responsible. And the law doesn't work like that - a club is only liable if it has failed to take reasonable care - and banning all spectators is not reasonable care, as evidenced by the scores of events which allow them .
I looked into the MSUK guidance after being kettled in a tiny area of Dalby forest and asking the club why was it was stopping me watching elsewhere. Oh , it's what MSUK say , we are only following their diktat that all spectators have to be contained . Except the MSUK said nothing of the sort ,and the regs went so far as to say that while spectator managementwas important , and popular or exceptionally dangerous spots need intense management, it was acknowledged that rallies would get forseeably get spectators elsewhere . It's one of the roles of the course car to spot any groups of spectators standing where they shouldn't but there is no legal ban from MSUK on spectators elsewhere - they are a fact of life.
And most of the fatalities occur on road rallies - very high speeds and , crucially , not trees to hide behind .I've marshalled and watched forest rallies since the days when Escort Twin Cams were a new thing and I have never once felt I was at risk
Apologize for quoting this again but to clarify are you suggesting road rallies or tarmac stage events ? Two very different types of rallying and I think you mean the latter I looked into the MSUK guidance after being kettled in a tiny area of Dalby forest and asking the club why was it was stopping me watching elsewhere. Oh , it's what MSUK say , we are only following their diktat that all spectators have to be contained . Except the MSUK said nothing of the sort ,and the regs went so far as to say that while spectator managementwas important , and popular or exceptionally dangerous spots need intense management, it was acknowledged that rallies would get forseeably get spectators elsewhere . It's one of the roles of the course car to spot any groups of spectators standing where they shouldn't but there is no legal ban from MSUK on spectators elsewhere - they are a fact of life.
And most of the fatalities occur on road rallies - very high speeds and , crucially , not trees to hide behind .I've marshalled and watched forest rallies since the days when Escort Twin Cams were a new thing and I have never once felt I was at risk
Drumroll said:
It is not normal practice, as you can't indemnify a land owner. Virtually all clubs run under the MSUK insurance for events, so it is a bit of a mute point. Unless of course you can show me a club that takes on all legal responsibilities and still runs under an MSUK permit.
Talking specifically about forest rallies I have known stages be non spectator because of concerns over nesting birds or PR issues etc. And no the forestry Commission insurance doesn't specifically exclude spectators (the question would always be where does going for in a walk/ bike ride etc end and being a spectator begin. We had a group of riders on the Trackrod rally who couldn't follow the route they wanted so stayed with us to watch the rally), but that doesn't mean they don't put other restrictions on the use of forests.
But then again I have never known a forest rally to ban spectators purely on insurance grounds.
Look into the details of the Jim Clark fatality in 2014 and see where liability was decided to lay. So please don't try and say it has nothing to do with insurance.
Of course you can indemnify a landowner against claims . No landowner in his right mind would agree to let a rally take placewithout an indemnity backed by club insurance .Talking specifically about forest rallies I have known stages be non spectator because of concerns over nesting birds or PR issues etc. And no the forestry Commission insurance doesn't specifically exclude spectators (the question would always be where does going for in a walk/ bike ride etc end and being a spectator begin. We had a group of riders on the Trackrod rally who couldn't follow the route they wanted so stayed with us to watch the rally), but that doesn't mean they don't put other restrictions on the use of forests.
But then again I have never known a forest rally to ban spectators purely on insurance grounds.
Look into the details of the Jim Clark fatality in 2014 and see where liability was decided to lay. So please don't try and say it has nothing to do with insurance.
bergclimber34 said:
Honestly if you have never walked out of a live stage you are hugely in the minority, and I am not being touchy at all, I have done it countless times.
It is very common and always has been so I am not really sure what your issue is quite honestly.
Yep but things sadly have changed or have had to change. Largely post Jim Clark but now with the mega blame culture too.It is very common and always has been so I am not really sure what your issue is quite honestly.
You've been rallying a long time as have I. IIRC it was "experienced" spectators killed on the Jim Clark. Again IIRC they were in the wrong place according to the inquest.
I was operating the start of a stage run twice on the RAC. We were sending cars in as folks were walking out. We (the start team) were uncomfortable as were many of the competitors. Seeding had gone to pot so it was just the slower back markers. Should we have stopped the rally? If we contacted rally control I'm sure that would be the response.
Rallying is on a knife edge as far as the future goes. Safety, environmental concerns being two major factors. Not to add the difficulty of getting staff most of whom are unpaid. Marshals are getting older and newer ones fewer in no.
We set up the stage on Saturday for Sunday. At 55 I was the youngest of the set up crew by many years.
In Scotland (not sure about England or Wales) there's a notice posted (maybe section 75 or not!) this removes the right to roam and may make it an offence to walk on a live stage.
EDIT: It's a Section 11:
https://forestryandland.gov.scot/news-releases/ral...
Edited by loskie on Sunday 30th November 09:04
To go over old ground, one of the people killed on the JC was media and he was told to move by a course car but hid or returned to the spot, it was a notably difficult area. The Snowman was hugely sad, influx of people, stage was allegedly in the motion of being dumped and a one off incident occurred and innocents who were not a dangeroua place were lost.
A no roam rule on the RAC would stop me going I am afraid, I see no issue with it, done safely and with the right equipment, and with a no roam rule you would in theory not be allowed to help anyone stuck and where would that get us, there is no greater feeling than getting a crew going or simply helping them to a safer point.
A no roam rule on the RAC would stop me going I am afraid, I see no issue with it, done safely and with the right equipment, and with a no roam rule you would in theory not be allowed to help anyone stuck and where would that get us, there is no greater feeling than getting a crew going or simply helping them to a safer point.
coppice said:
Of course you can indemnify a landowner against claims . No landowner in his right mind would agree to let a rally take placewithout an indemnity backed by club insurance .
What club insurance? clubs don't hold their own insurance for events it is MSUK insurance,I am not going to into the complexities of indemnity insurance as I don't fully understand it myself. But look at Shakey Burns Court case he successfully claimed against several Groups including the land owner https://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/british-super...
MSUK insurance is club insurance for the purpose of the discussion. It covers claims (usually founded on negligence) made by an injured party against the event organiser. As for indemnities generally it is entirely normal practice that if you allow a party on to your land for an event organised by them they indenify you for any claims arising out of what happens on the event . I drafted and advised on scores of such documents for organisations like police and fire services using private land for training exercises .
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