Colin McRae

[F1GTRUeno]

Yup, that guy.

I know the discussion about him has been had ad infinitum and I still to this day get a horrible feeling in my stomach thinking about it but I watched one video on him on Youtube and the algorithm soon gave me basically everything WRC in the 90's/early 00's and everything Subaru and Colin McRae Rally and it brought on a huge amount of nostalgia and good feeling and I wondered if I'd finally gotten over the negativity for what happened when he died.

How long is too long?

I really don't know but my god, him before he crashed on Rally GB in 2001...he was possessed. If in doubt flat out at it's absolute finest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sAbQ5wRr0o

It's 7 and a bit minutes of some of the best driving you're ever likely to see.

And I'm still conflicted.

And I want an Impreza (not really, I want an Evo)

What about you PH?

[Galveston]

That’s my favourite motorsport video, bar none. McRae’s natural talent was off the charts and his commitment on that stage was total.

The 90s and early 00s was my favourite era of rallying. The cars were still relatively crude and required significant driver input to make them change direction - the little (and some big) inputs that McRae makes throughout that video to make the car do things it doesn’t naturally want to do are breathtaking. Poetry in motion.

He was my hero for many years and had a huge influence. I haven’t ever owned an Impreza but I started competing in club motorsport as soon as I was 17 and it remains a huge part of my life.

The helicopter crash was stupid, ultimately quite predictable, and has tarnished the legacy of one motorsport’s greatest stars. Personally I prefer to watch the old rally videos and remember the skills and force with which he drove, and try to forget what happened later.

[ArnageWRC]

I was at that year's Rally of GB - and was at the second stage of the day, which was SS3 - Tyle; He was visibly faster than everybody else. However, the actual stage times don't reflect that - only 4th fastest.
On the previous stage, St Gwynno, as seen on the video, he was fastest, but not by as much as you'd think - only by 1.9........

He was over driving the car, and we know what happened on SS4 - Rhondda.

[fttm canada]

Huge fan of Colin , as Gunther Steiner wrote in his book from his time at M Sport “ the most naturally talented driver I’ve ever seen “, hard to argue tbh .

[Voldemort]

Great driver. But not a great pilot and, sadly, not a great man because of it. Not a suitable hero.

[flatlandsman]

That clip is perhaps one of the greatest pieces of in car video you will ever see, there are others, Juha in Finland in 98 dragging a dogdirt Escort into the top 3 in the wet, Burns in Finland later on, Panizzi and Delecour in 206 Maxi's in Franc, Ragnotti in car with foot cam etc some really good other stuff.

Colin for me was a true enigma, breathtaking in many ways but could also make the stupidest of errors, you feel how could have been a multiple world champion without them. People always say Tommi crashed a lot too, but he also managed 4 world titles, sorry the maths might add up, but the titles do not. For me from that era Carlos was always the gold standard and best, still as quick, but very unlucky but not the mega ultimate pace of Tommi, Colin and Richard at their peak, but he was around before and after, that says a lot.

And as said, his rep is heavily tarnished by what happened later on. Which is such a shame.

[Galveston]

ArnageWRC said:

I was at that year's Rally of GB - and was at the second stage of the day, which was SS3 - Tyle; He was visibly faster than everybody else. However, the actual stage times don't reflect that - only 4th fastest.
On the previous stage, St Gwynno, as seen on the video, he was fastest, but not by as much as you'd think - only by 1.9........

He was over driving the car, and we know what happened on SS4 - Rhondda.

I don’t think that’s true. SS2 was borderline perfection, astonishing precision and control. The first corner is really the only place he loses any time. It’s an absolute masterclass.

Ditto the accident - it wasn’t through over-driving. The car took a slightly tighter like than he’d wanted. He chose not to correct it and found something hard on the inside of the corner. Quite unlucky really.

The 2001 Focus handled nicely but was underpowered compared to its rivals, especially the 206 which monstered it in a straight line.

Edited by Galveston on Wednesday 3rd January 20:36

[Galveston]

flatlandsman said:

That clip is perhaps one of the greatest pieces of in car video you will ever see, there are others, Juha in Finland in 98 dragging a dogdirt Escort into the top 3 in the wet, Burns in Finland later on, Panizzi and Delecour in 206 Maxi's in Franc, Ragnotti in car with foot cam etc some really good other stuff.

Colin for me was a true enigma, breathtaking in many ways but could also make the stupidest of errors, you feel how could have been a multiple world champion without them. People always say Tommi crashed a lot too, but he also managed 4 world titles, sorry the maths might add up, but the titles do not. For me from that era Carlos was always the gold standard and best, still as quick, but very unlucky but not the mega ultimate pace of Tommi, Colin and Richard at their peak, but he was around before and after, that says a lot.

And as said, his rep is heavily tarnished by what happened later on. Which is such a shame.

Yes, he made his share of errors; 1996 and 1999 were particularly crashy. But he would’ve been champion in 1997 and 1998 without the Subaru’s dodgy cambelts and an unusual prevalence of other reliability issues.

[stevemcs]

The first time i saw him outside of a tv was clumber park looking for a bus stop but ending up denting the legacy on a straw bale. He never backed off, even if it guarenteed a win.

[confucuis]

I'm conflicted about him tbh.

Obviously an incredible driver but the his death and causing the death of others has tarnished him.

Also having listened to Nicky Grists interview with Chris Harris (which is a fantastic listen to on Spotify collecting cars podcast!), he doesn't come across well in some of Nicky's stories. It's been awhile since I last listened to it but I seem to remember basically Nicky saying McRae wouldn't take responsibility for some accidents that were his fault, and in the end, Nicky found out McRae had dropped him from a reporter calling him rather than from McRae. Those stories have tarnished him quite a bit in my opinion.

Also, Loeb basically showed you could be faster than McRae without all the crashes. I don't know if McRae would survive in todays WRC up against the likes of Kalle, Tanak, Evans (possibly) and Ogier (when he feels like it) given the crashes. Just look at Meeke who McRae trained, extremely fast but the accidents just won't be tolerated anymore

[Muzzer79]

confucuis said:

I don't know if McRae would survive in todays WRC up against the likes of Kalle, Tanak, Evans (possibly) and Ogier (when he feels like it) given the crashes. Just look at Meeke who McRae trained, extremely fast but the accidents just won't be tolerated anymore

Rallying is a different sport now - it’s no different to a Gilles Villeneuve or a Nigel Mansell turning up in F1 now - they probably wouldn’t last one race.

For me Colin was the one - a 90s Henri Toivonen.

I appear to be one of the few who takes the helicopter crash as an accident, one that he obviously didn’t set out to have happen. I understand that’s contentious for some.

[Galveston]

confucuis said:

Also, Loeb basically showed you could be faster than McRae without all the crashes. I don't know if McRae would survive in todays WRC up against the likes of Kalle, Tanak, Evans (possibly) and Ogier (when he feels like it) given the crashes. Just look at Meeke who McRae trained, extremely fast but the accidents just won't be tolerated anymore

It’s a very different sport.

In the 90s the cars were relatively crude and had to be driven aggressively. The rallies were longer and were recce’d much less. Pacenotes were crude and speed relied on outright driving skill, instinct and bravery. McRae was perfect in that environment.

In the early 00s transmission and tyre developments meant the cars were faster if driven very differently, essentially using tarmac techniques on loose surfaces. The events became shorter and pacenotes became more exact. The necessary skillset changed enormously and the Loeb style became dominant.

[The big yin]

Colin is /was an amazing driver.
I attended the Citroen test in Clatteringshaws years ago and stood at the jump on the test track, Almost every time he came through the car was on exactly the same lines and only getting quicker.
I saw him landing his helicopter at another test in Ae forest where there wasn't much room and he was very particular where and how he set it down ,in fact possibly over cautious.
Sadly missed.

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

Muzzer79 said:

I appear to be one of the few who takes the helicopter crash as an accident, one that he obviously didn’t set out to have happen. I understand that’s contentious for some.

for some people who've never made a mistake, it certainly seems to affect their opinion of him.

I think you are more than your worst moment, he was for 99% of his professional life a hero to many. And the very reason he was a hero to many, was the very same reason he crashed his helicopter. I'd rather the world knew about Colin McRae, than did not.

[Voldemort]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

for some people who've never made a mistake, it certainly seems to affect their opinion of him.

I admit to making many mistakes in my life so far. But I am not responsible for the death of my own or other people's children.

There comes a point where the scale of the mistake has to affect the opinion and killing children is so far beyond that point as to be concerning that you - or anyone else - is able to put it to one side.

[Muzzer79]

Voldemort said:

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

for some people who've never made a mistake, it certainly seems to affect their opinion of him.

I admit to making many mistakes in my life so far. But I am not responsible for the death of my own or other people's children.

There comes a point where the scale of the mistake has to affect the opinion and killing children is so far beyond that point as to be concerning that you - or anyone else - is able to put it to one side.

There's plenty of people in various forms of celebrity (in a sense that they're well known) who have killed people accidentally and have either carried on with their lives or are not vilified in death.

I accept that McRae made errors and the accident report severely questioned his judgement. I accept his culpability for the accident itself.
What I struggle to reconcile is treating him in the same vein as some kind of murderer or other intentional act of harm.
I don't believe that he intended to put people's (including his own son's) lives at risk, no matter how reckless he was in a rally car.

As such, I don't put those events 'to one side' but I also don't think they define his life.

[Gary C]

Muzzer79 said:

Voldemort said:

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

for some people who've never made a mistake, it certainly seems to affect their opinion of him.

I admit to making many mistakes in my life so far. But I am not responsible for the death of my own or other people's children.

There comes a point where the scale of the mistake has to affect the opinion and killing children is so far beyond that point as to be concerning that you - or anyone else - is able to put it to one side.

There's plenty of people in various forms of celebrity (in a sense that they're well known) who have killed people accidentally and have either carried on with their lives or are not vilified in death.

I accept that McRae made errors and the accident report severely questioned his judgement. I accept his culpability for the accident itself.
What I struggle to reconcile is treating him in the same vein as some kind of murderer or other intentional act of harm.
I don't believe that he intended to put people's (including his own son's) lives at risk, no matter how reckless he was in a rally car.

As such, I don't put those events 'to one side' but I also don't think they define his life.

I remember reading a story of Moss (I think it was) changing a cassette tape with one hand, while sliding a car across three lanes of a highway as he almost missed the exit while still chatting to the passenger.

Degraded risk perception plus a bit of showing off can be dangerous in us all.

[Voldemort]

Muzzer79 said:

Voldemort said:

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

for some people who've never made a mistake, it certainly seems to affect their opinion of him.

I admit to making many mistakes in my life so far. But I am not responsible for the death of my own or other people's children.

There comes a point where the scale of the mistake has to affect the opinion and killing children is so far beyond that point as to be concerning that you - or anyone else - is able to put it to one side.

There's plenty of people in various forms of celebrity (in a sense that they're well known) who have killed people accidentally and have either carried on with their lives or are not vilified in death.

I accept that McRae made errors and the accident report severely questioned his judgement. I accept his culpability for the accident itself.
What I struggle to reconcile is treating him in the same vein as some kind of murderer or other intentional act of harm.
I don't believe that he intended to put people's (including his own son's) lives at risk, no matter how reckless he was in a rally car.

As such, I don't put those events 'to one side' but I also don't think they define his life.

Do you think the pilot of the jet that crashed at the Shoreham airshow should be allowed to fly again?

[flatlandsman]

That is a different argument and been discussed at length in another area of the forum.

I personally think the accident taints his reputation hugely, as he was known as a risk taker most of his life, but to do it in the circumstances he did, in a machine he was at time unlicensed ti fly as it was with other people on board and even worse other peoples children is why I think so many find it hard to forgive. Totally unnecessary for him, his family and theirs.

The Grist story is also not a shock, I doubt Kankkunen ever blamed grist for a crash (if he ever really had any lol) it is always a two person thing, the notes are made and yes you can get it wrong but whose evidence would you take, the guy who spent his entire career crashing out of good results at times or the guy who co drive for two world champions and was dumped by the one who kept crashing before and after! Irony that he later on came back post WRC career and with Skoda I think.

I prefer to remember the man as perhaps one of the most gifted rally drivers the sport has ever seen, a flawed genius in many ways who made poor career decisions that cost him at times, but who also extracted inhuman performance from cars and showed the most cautious approach on some of the hardest rallies, How on earth he won the Safari in 99 is still for me one of the most insane drives ever seen in WRC history, and also the drive Malcom holds so dear to his heart personally for probably the same sorts of reasons

[Muzzer79]

Voldemort said:

Muzzer79 said:

Voldemort said:

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

for some people who've never made a mistake, it certainly seems to affect their opinion of him.

I admit to making many mistakes in my life so far. But I am not responsible for the death of my own or other people's children.

There comes a point where the scale of the mistake has to affect the opinion and killing children is so far beyond that point as to be concerning that you - or anyone else - is able to put it to one side.

There's plenty of people in various forms of celebrity (in a sense that they're well known) who have killed people accidentally and have either carried on with their lives or are not vilified in death.

I accept that McRae made errors and the accident report severely questioned his judgement. I accept his culpability for the accident itself.
What I struggle to reconcile is treating him in the same vein as some kind of murderer or other intentional act of harm.
I don't believe that he intended to put people's (including his own son's) lives at risk, no matter how reckless he was in a rally car.

As such, I don't put those events 'to one side' but I also don't think they define his life.

Do you think the pilot of the jet that crashed at the Shoreham airshow should be allowed to fly again?

What’s the relevance of that?

To drag some relevance in, if Colin had survived his helicopter crash, no I don’t think he should have been allowed to fly again. Indeed, I’d expect him to serve time.