heel and toe in rallying??
Discussion
I recently attended a full days rallying course at Silverstone rally school, where no also got my BARS licence, so I can compete next year in my E30 M3. The corse was ok, the track a little disappointing but what puzzled me most was the instructors insistence to completely forget about heel and toe in all disciplines of rallying. I put my hand up and took exception to this, but he even insisted that when track driving he didn't bother and that it is a totally overrated and outdated practice for old cars without synchro. This didn't help me have any confidence in him at all, but I still left the day puzzled as to whether there is any truth to his claim.
Can someone who has good experience on the rally scene please put me straight. I'm sure surface may affect things, but in my book h&t is a must in all forms of 4 wheeled motorsport. I've learnt the hard way in my Cateraham on a wet track!
Thanks
Can someone who has good experience on the rally scene please put me straight. I'm sure surface may affect things, but in my book h&t is a must in all forms of 4 wheeled motorsport. I've learnt the hard way in my Cateraham on a wet track!
Thanks
If its your own car a bit of mechanical sympathy might go a long way to saving you money.
Mr Rallyschool might be used to driving sequential boxes, or maybe just used to driving other peoples cars where he never has to pay the bill for a g/box rebuild (after he trashes all the syncro's on his way to 35th place).
Mr Rallyschool might be used to driving sequential boxes, or maybe just used to driving other peoples cars where he never has to pay the bill for a g/box rebuild (after he trashes all the syncro's on his way to 35th place).
Cool Hand Luke said:
I recently attended a full days rallying course at Silverstone rally school, where no also got my BARS licence, so I can compete next year in my E30 M3. The corse was ok, the track a little disappointing but what puzzled me most was the instructors insistence to completely forget about heel and toe in all disciplines of rallying. I put my hand up and took exception to this, but he even insisted that when track driving he didn't bother and that it is a totally overrated and outdated practice for old cars without synchro. This didn't help me have any confidence in him at all, but I still left the day puzzled as to whether there is any truth to his claim.
Can someone who has good experience on the rally scene please put me straight. I'm sure surface may affect things, but in my book h&t is a must in all forms of 4 wheeled motorsport. I've learnt the hard way in my Cateraham on a wet track!
Thanks
.... give me a clue who it was?Can someone who has good experience on the rally scene please put me straight. I'm sure surface may affect things, but in my book h&t is a must in all forms of 4 wheeled motorsport. I've learnt the hard way in my Cateraham on a wet track!
Thanks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbU4GZkt7ig
Walter Rohrl, Audi Quattro. I can see him kicking the throttle on downshifts. Dancing on the pedals, awesome.
Walter Rohrl, Audi Quattro. I can see him kicking the throttle on downshifts. Dancing on the pedals, awesome.
I would say that there's more to lose by bad H&T than from not doing it.
I remember reading that Hakkinen never did it. Don't know if this is true.
I also think that the destroying gear boxes thing is not really true - if you're shifting sequentially you shouldn't be wazzing the heck out of it and gear boxes are a lot tougher than they used to be.
I remember reading that Hakkinen never did it. Don't know if this is true.
I also think that the destroying gear boxes thing is not really true - if you're shifting sequentially you shouldn't be wazzing the heck out of it and gear boxes are a lot tougher than they used to be.
Heal and Toeing has nothing to do with "helping" the gearbox select the next ratio, and everything to do with avoiding sudden torque changes at the drive wheels. The reason you probably don't heal and toe i a modern rally car is because with a dog box you don't need the clutch, you can left foot brake and hence use the accelerator simultaneously with the brake as necessary.......
Quite a few years ago I did a course at Pentti Airikkala's rally school and he taught left foot braking over heal and toe.
I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Sunday 14th December 10:23
GravelBen said:
Modern clutchless sequentials I can see why you wouldn't need to.
Most rally cars I see on the stages (national level and lower) don't have those gearboxes, so you still hear plenty of blipped downshifts under braking...
You'd be surprised how many cars have sequential boxes in these days. Mainly historic spec cars you'll hear blipping on the downshifts.Most rally cars I see on the stages (national level and lower) don't have those gearboxes, so you still hear plenty of blipped downshifts under braking...
Martin4x4 said:
Quite a few years ago I did a course at Pentti Airikkala's rally school and he taught left foot braking over heal and toe.
I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
Penti also had adapted his brake pedals to be extra wide, so you could switch between which foot did the braking I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Sunday 14th December 10:23
My take on that is to fit a brake pedal from an auto. Edited by cptsideways on Monday 15th December 08:58
Martin4x4 said:
Quite a few years ago I did a course at Pentti Airikkala's rally school and he taught left foot braking over heal and toe.
I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
.... and how might I ask, does left foot braking replace the importance of "Heel and Toe", as a means of matching road speed to engine speed when conducting a down change???????I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Sunday 14th December 10:23
ginettajoe said:
Martin4x4 said:
Quite a few years ago I did a course at Pentti Airikkala's rally school and he taught left foot braking over heal and toe.
I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
.... and how might I ask, does left foot braking replace the importance of "Heel and Toe", as a means of matching road speed to engine speed when conducting a down change???????I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Sunday 14th December 10:23
ginettajoe said:
Cool Hand Luke said:
I recently attended a full days rallying course at Silverstone rally school, where no also got my BARS licence, so I can compete next year in my E30 M3. The corse was ok, the track a little disappointing but what puzzled me most was the instructors insistence to completely forget about heel and toe in all disciplines of rallying. I put my hand up and took exception to this, but he even insisted that when track driving he didn't bother and that it is a totally overrated and outdated practice for old cars without synchro. This didn't help me have any confidence in him at all, but I still left the day puzzled as to whether there is any truth to his claim.
Can someone who has good experience on the rally scene please put me straight. I'm sure surface may affect things, but in my book h&t is a must in all forms of 4 wheeled motorsport. I've learnt the hard way in my Cateraham on a wet track!
Thanks
.... give me a clue who it was?Can someone who has good experience on the rally scene please put me straight. I'm sure surface may affect things, but in my book h&t is a must in all forms of 4 wheeled motorsport. I've learnt the hard way in my Cateraham on a wet track!
Thanks
SS7
Quite and if in the days of 3 pedals and a conventional box H&T was good enough for Hannu Mikkola then it's good enough, full stop.
Clearly there are situations on stage where you may not wish to use it. There may be vehicles where it's not needed or even possible.
Horses for courses.
Clearly there are situations on stage where you may not wish to use it. There may be vehicles where it's not needed or even possible.
Horses for courses.
IMO, when braking hard, especially on slippery surfaces, its vital to be able to heel & Toe correctly, normal H box or sequential if using the clutch on down changes, the car will be a lot more stable, and you WILL stop quicker.
Again, IMO, it’s a discipline that’s appears to be dying out and should be encouraged. Don’t just expect to be able to do it in any car however, the pedals DO have to be in the right position.
Cheers
Again, IMO, it’s a discipline that’s appears to be dying out and should be encouraged. Don’t just expect to be able to do it in any car however, the pedals DO have to be in the right position.
Cheers
cptsideways said:
ginettajoe said:
Martin4x4 said:
Quite a few years ago I did a course at Pentti Airikkala's rally school and he taught left foot braking over heal and toe.
I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
.... and how might I ask, does left foot braking replace the importance of "Heel and Toe", as a means of matching road speed to engine speed when conducting a down change???????I suspect that is reason he is against it, since left foot braking both precludes using heal and toe and has superseded it amongst top professional performance drivers. It is almost universal in F1 and WRC.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Sunday 14th December 10:23
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