Porsche Taycan and future Porsche EVs and values
Discussion
theboss said:
Company money is worth a lot less than personal money, with the difference depending on your marginal tax rate.
£100k of pre-taxed profit in my business account currently converts to about £46k in my pocket.
If the company buys an ev with that money instead, you get the value of a '£100k' car near enough tax free, save for the BIK liability arising which is currently set at 2% of list price and will rise gradually by 1% over coming years.
The company also pays for insurance, servicing, tyres etc. without incurring any further tax charges.
Anyone with the option to buy an EV through an owned company or employer choosing to do so personally instead, needs their head examining.
This is the reason I bought mine and it does soften the blow on the depreciation. It’s worth pointing out that if I sell it counts as a profit and I’ll be liable for corporation tax on that component. £100k of pre-taxed profit in my business account currently converts to about £46k in my pocket.
If the company buys an ev with that money instead, you get the value of a '£100k' car near enough tax free, save for the BIK liability arising which is currently set at 2% of list price and will rise gradually by 1% over coming years.
The company also pays for insurance, servicing, tyres etc. without incurring any further tax charges.
Anyone with the option to buy an EV through an owned company or employer choosing to do so personally instead, needs their head examining.
Still, I wouldn’t say that people would need their heads examining. Yes, a Tesla or other similarly ugly EVs scream of accounting advice, but the Taycan is a pleasurable car to drive quickly, drive slowly and looks good. If I was buying privately then it would make sense to get one where someone else has taken a big initial hit.
Most people buy a car privately so it’s not really relevant to them how the Ltd company scenarios function.
John-htsvy said:
Coming back to the topic of depreciation on Taycans - I am keen on a used Cross Turismo. This is on sale at Guildford: https://finder.porsche.com/gb/en-GB/dealer/details... for £65K. A "webuyanycar" query gives a value of £46K. A 40%+ "mark up" on trade. Are they really selling cars with this mark up on trade? A fair price - surely - is in the low to mid £50's....?
But is that Porsche being greedy at £65K or WBAC cheeky at £46K, I'd say the latter looking at comparisons for sale.Low to mid 50's you are looking at x3 the amount of miles on it.
This one is priced similar, older, leggier, and AT regards it as close to market average.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202405159...
The one you have your eye on seems like a very good deal to me.
KittyLitter said:
But is that Porsche being greedy at £65K or WBAC cheeky at £46K, I'd say the latter looking at comparisons for sale.
Low to mid 50's you are looking at x3 the amount of miles on it.
This one is priced similar, older, leggier, and AT regards it as close to market average.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202405159...
The one you have your eye on seems like a very good deal to me.
Respectfully - that's not my point. WBAC is not a finite article or definition of value, but it does serve as a comparator against true trade prices and - therefore - dealer mark-up. You should always get a WBAC valuation to see the margin anyone is putting on a car. Higher depreciation / slower moving cars will always have a higher mark up for that reason. Compare this car - https://finder.porsche.com/gb/en-GB/dealer/details... - a base, well spec'ed, 911 convertible at the same dealer. Up for £89K and a WBAC valuation of £73K. Same Porsche dealer applying a mark-up of 22% (almost half that of the Taycan).Low to mid 50's you are looking at x3 the amount of miles on it.
This one is priced similar, older, leggier, and AT regards it as close to market average.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202405159...
The one you have your eye on seems like a very good deal to me.
So no - I don't think this particular (or any main dealer) Taycan is a particularly good deal, at the moment. There is a ton of "immediate" depreciation built into them. Really comes down to how badly you want one and how much the dealer is willing to move. I suspect I'll soon find the answer to both and let you know.....
Grantstown said:
I don’t think WBAC have any interest in EVs at the moment given all the uncertainties. Their prices are clearly massively risk averse and I doubt they’re getting many takers.
If you trade in your current Taycan against another Porsche you’ll see what the situation is.
Yeah, this. If you trade in your current Taycan against another Porsche you’ll see what the situation is.
Most car sales people just don't want used EV stock at the moment. WBAC are sending them to auction, look at auction prices on EVs.
https://www.top555.co.uk/stock/details/Porsche-Tay...
this was up at 76k and in the add it said list price was over 122,500k. sold in a couple days.
knowing top 555, they'd be looking to make 10-15k out if if not more, so gives an idea where market is on them.
this was up at 76k and in the add it said list price was over 122,500k. sold in a couple days.
knowing top 555, they'd be looking to make 10-15k out if if not more, so gives an idea where market is on them.
Sidsw said:
https://www.top555.co.uk/stock/details/Porsche-Tay...
this was up at 76k and in the add it said list price was over 122,500k. sold in a couple days.
knowing top 555, they'd be looking to make 10-15k out if if not more, so gives an idea where market is on them.
It may have been SOR so possibly only £5k. Last time I spoke to Dan ( March) they were not prepared to buy a Taycan of any sort. this was up at 76k and in the add it said list price was over 122,500k. sold in a couple days.
knowing top 555, they'd be looking to make 10-15k out if if not more, so gives an idea where market is on them.
John-htsvy said:
KittyLitter said:
But is that Porsche being greedy at £65K or WBAC cheeky at £46K, I'd say the latter looking at comparisons for sale.
Low to mid 50's you are looking at x3 the amount of miles on it.
This one is priced similar, older, leggier, and AT regards it as close to market average.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202405159...
The one you have your eye on seems like a very good deal to me.
Respectfully - that's not my point. WBAC is not a finite article or definition of value, but it does serve as a comparator against true trade prices and - therefore - dealer mark-up. You should always get a WBAC valuation to see the margin anyone is putting on a car. Higher depreciation / slower moving cars will always have a higher mark up for that reason. Compare this car - https://finder.porsche.com/gb/en-GB/dealer/details... - a base, well spec'ed, 911 convertible at the same dealer. Up for £89K and a WBAC valuation of £73K. Same Porsche dealer applying a mark-up of 22% (almost half that of the Taycan).Low to mid 50's you are looking at x3 the amount of miles on it.
This one is priced similar, older, leggier, and AT regards it as close to market average.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202405159...
The one you have your eye on seems like a very good deal to me.
So no - I don't think this particular (or any main dealer) Taycan is a particularly good deal, at the moment. There is a ton of "immediate" depreciation built into them. Really comes down to how badly you want one and how much the dealer is willing to move. I suspect I'll soon find the answer to both and let you know.....
Ed.Neumann said:
Grantstown said:
I don’t think WBAC have any interest in EVs at the moment given all the uncertainties. Their prices are clearly massively risk averse and I doubt they’re getting many takers.
If you trade in your current Taycan against another Porsche you’ll see what the situation is.
Yeah, this. If you trade in your current Taycan against another Porsche you’ll see what the situation is.
Most car sales people just don't want used EV stock at the moment. WBAC are sending them to auction, look at auction prices on EVs.
DMZ said:
Ed.Neumann said:
Grantstown said:
I don’t think WBAC have any interest in EVs at the moment given all the uncertainties. Their prices are clearly massively risk averse and I doubt they’re getting many takers.
If you trade in your current Taycan against another Porsche you’ll see what the situation is.
Yeah, this. If you trade in your current Taycan against another Porsche you’ll see what the situation is.
Most car sales people just don't want used EV stock at the moment. WBAC are sending them to auction, look at auction prices on EVs.
Used EV sales for the first quarter were actually up considerably, but prices were down massively too.
Porsche will pay a bit more to get you into another car of course.
Dealers are taking them in, but the price needs to be right.
Problem is, those who buy new without all the handouts are getting shafted when they want to trade in, and thus even though many loved the car, they won't buy another.
It will sort itself out I'm sure, but right now it feels too volatile, too much of a gamble for many.
Lease a new one and let the manufacturer take the risk is probably the safest bet.
theboss said:
Company money is worth a lot less than personal money, with the difference depending on your marginal tax rate.
£100k of pre-taxed profit in my business account currently converts to about £46k in my pocket.
If the company buys an ev with that money instead, you get the value of a '£100k' car near enough tax free, save for the BIK liability arising which is currently set at 2% of list price and will rise gradually by 1% over coming years.
The company also pays for insurance, servicing, tyres etc. without incurring any further tax charges.
Anyone with the option to buy an EV through an owned company or employer choosing to do so personally instead, needs their head examining.
All fair and valid points but it really seems some people can’t see the woods from the trees and just see the tax savings. I hear this a lot where people effectively don’t care about depreciation as “company” is paying for it and £xx tax saved. I always ask questions such as, do I really want the car, does the company need this money more than me, can the company invest and get a really good roi (eg hire more staff).£100k of pre-taxed profit in my business account currently converts to about £46k in my pocket.
If the company buys an ev with that money instead, you get the value of a '£100k' car near enough tax free, save for the BIK liability arising which is currently set at 2% of list price and will rise gradually by 1% over coming years.
The company also pays for insurance, servicing, tyres etc. without incurring any further tax charges.
Anyone with the option to buy an EV through an owned company or employer choosing to do so personally instead, needs their head examining.
Tax avoidance leads people to do odd things.
acer12 said:
All fair and valid points but it really seems some people can’t see the woods from the trees and just see the tax savings. I hear this a lot where people effectively don’t care about depreciation as “company” is paying for it and £xx tax saved. I always ask questions such as, do I really want the car, does the company need this money more than me, can the company invest and get a really good roi (eg hire more staff).
Tax avoidance leads people to do odd things.
Sound investment will almost always be a better idea than a nice car, nothing has changed there. Tax avoidance leads people to do odd things.
You have to look back to 2020 and 21, when you’d buy your Taycan, drive away and it had appreciated in value. It was hard to see it as anything but a no brainer at the time. Many got through 3 new ones in 18 months, with minimal loss. It’s a nice feeling to go through the ordering process and see your configured car arrive.
Obviously now the financial decision is much more important and tends to take the shine off a good car.
Edited by Grantstown on Monday 17th June 09:26
Grantstown said:
Still, I wouldn’t say that people would need their heads examining. Yes, a Tesla or other similarly ugly EVs scream of accounting advice, but the Taycan is a pleasurable car to drive quickly, drive slowly and looks good. If I was buying privately then it would make sense to get one where someone else has taken a big initial hit.
Most people buy a car privately so it’s not really relevant to them how the Ltd company scenarios function.
My point was that if somebody had both private and company means of provision available, they'd be mad not to take advantage of the preferential tax treatment conferred by the latter.Most people buy a car privately so it’s not really relevant to them how the Ltd company scenarios function.
Obviously if they are employed and they'd rather spend their own money on a used one versus a salary sacrifice lease that's a fair point, but I was thinking more from the perspective of business ownership where you can buy your same personalised choice of used car with company money.
theboss said:
Grantstown said:
Still, I wouldn’t say that people would need their heads examining. Yes, a Tesla or other similarly ugly EVs scream of accounting advice, but the Taycan is a pleasurable car to drive quickly, drive slowly and looks good. If I was buying privately then it would make sense to get one where someone else has taken a big initial hit.
Most people buy a car privately so it’s not really relevant to them how the Ltd company scenarios function.
My point was that if somebody had both private and company means of provision available, they'd be mad not to take advantage of the preferential tax treatment conferred by the latter.Most people buy a car privately so it’s not really relevant to them how the Ltd company scenarios function.
Obviously if they are employed and they'd rather spend their own money on a used one versus a salary sacrifice lease that's a fair point, but I was thinking more from the perspective of business ownership where you can buy your same personalised choice of used car with company money.
I fully understand differences in Company Money and Personal Money but in my book a loss is a loss which I try and prevent whether the money is sitting in the company account or my personal account.
Greenmantle said:
theboss said:
Grantstown said:
Still, I wouldn’t say that people would need their heads examining. Yes, a Tesla or other similarly ugly EVs scream of accounting advice, but the Taycan is a pleasurable car to drive quickly, drive slowly and looks good. If I was buying privately then it would make sense to get one where someone else has taken a big initial hit.
Most people buy a car privately so it’s not really relevant to them how the Ltd company scenarios function.
My point was that if somebody had both private and company means of provision available, they'd be mad not to take advantage of the preferential tax treatment conferred by the latter.Most people buy a car privately so it’s not really relevant to them how the Ltd company scenarios function.
Obviously if they are employed and they'd rather spend their own money on a used one versus a salary sacrifice lease that's a fair point, but I was thinking more from the perspective of business ownership where you can buy your same personalised choice of used car with company money.
I fully understand differences in Company Money and Personal Money but in my book a loss is a loss which I try and prevent whether the money is sitting in the company account or my personal account.
Edited by Man of gas on Tuesday 25th June 12:46
Man of gas said:
That’s not true, you get a reduced rebate on corporation tax on a used car as well, i think it’s 18%. As you have to in effect repay the savings in corporation tax anyway when you sell the car the difference is even less as it is really the depreciation you offset against corporation tax. Their is a very real benefit in buying a used electric car on the company as it is being paid for by pre tax cash as the other poster mentioned so a £65K used Tacan is bought through the company has the same costs as a £35K car being paid for privately
Indeed, though the downside is you'll need to keep paying BIK at the list price and the rates are set to escalate now 1% per year as I'm sure you're aware.Edited by Man of gas on Tuesday 25th June 12:46
At least with EV's depreciating like mad the company owner can just buy it off the business for its next-to-nothing market value if the intention is to hold onto it for a while.
theboss said:
Man of gas said:
That’s not true, you get a reduced rebate on corporation tax on a used car as well, i think it’s 18%. As you have to in effect repay the savings in corporation tax anyway when you sell the car the difference is even less as it is really the depreciation you offset against corporation tax. Their is a very real benefit in buying a used electric car on the company as it is being paid for by pre tax cash as the other poster mentioned so a £65K used Tacan is bought through the company has the same costs as a £35K car being paid for privately
Indeed, though the downside is you'll need to keep paying BIK at the list price and the rates are set to escalate now 1% per year as I'm sure you're aware.Edited by Man of gas on Tuesday 25th June 12:46
At least with EV's depreciating like mad the company owner can just buy it off the business for its next-to-nothing market value if the intention is to hold onto it for a while.
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