Porsche Taycan and future Porsche EVs and values
Discussion
youngsyr said:
So why haven't they changed their stance with Panameras?
And why does Porsche have to offer a significantly longer battery than Tesla, who have been selling £100k model S for over a decade?
How may hybrid panameras have they sold?And why does Porsche have to offer a significantly longer battery than Tesla, who have been selling £100k model S for over a decade?
Have Porsche residuals been under as much strain since the Panamera hybrid was invented? How have Panamera hybrid residuals done?
(I don't know btw. But there are likely many drivers).
Ref Tesla...
They offer 150k miles on their batteries. They also don't offer the 15yr/ul mile general extended warranty either.
Maybe they don't see themselves as full on competitors between each other?
Ultimately warranty provision, IMO, is an expression of confidence in the product. Make it too short/too expensive and you're sending out a message about the product (or your view of your customers).
Maybe Porsche won't care. If the residuals position is sorted (though note I'm not one to think it's fundamental smashed as it stands) then maybe nobody else will. Who knows.
Murph7355 said:
youngsyr said:
So why haven't they changed their stance with Panameras?
And why does Porsche have to offer a significantly longer battery than Tesla, who have been selling £100k model S for over a decade?
How may hybrid panameras have they sold?And why does Porsche have to offer a significantly longer battery than Tesla, who have been selling £100k model S for over a decade?
Have Porsche residuals been under as much strain since the Panamera hybrid was invented? How have Panamera hybrid residuals done?
(I don't know btw. But there are likely many drivers).
Ref Tesla...
They offer 150k miles on their batteries. They also don't offer the 15yr/ul mile general extended warranty either.
Maybe they don't see themselves as full on competitors between each other?
Ultimately warranty provision, IMO, is an expression of confidence in the product. Make it too short/too expensive and you're sending out a message about the product (or your view of your customers).
Maybe Porsche won't care. If the residuals position is sorted (though note I'm not one to think it's fundamental smashed as it stands) then maybe nobody else will. Who knows.
Grantstown said:
EVs will have to have a full extendable warranty to 15 years or Porsche won’t be successful in the future. It should be fine though as it’s the other parts of the car that will typically fail, as we all know that Porsche peripherals can be pretty shoddy.
The Taycan largely causes anxiety for non-owners for some reason.
Having completed a 2 minute Google, it’s interesting to see that the battery can be dropped from the car (in a similar way to the engine/gearbox in a 911) and individual modules can be replaced. There are several battery packs for sale on eBay now. At the moment these will be gobbled up by people who are converting classics into EVs. The number of garages that can do this sort of work is growing rapidly.
The parts market is quite interesting. I’ve had a habit of modifying my 911 and recently sold the old brake callipers and discs. The buyer has a parts business so no doubt feels that there’s more money in them. If the Taycan was broken up, the value of all the parts would be astronomical. Maybe one day I’ll take it apart in my workshop!
Having completed a 2 minute Google, it’s interesting to see that the battery can be dropped from the car (in a similar way to the engine/gearbox in a 911) and individual modules can be replaced. There are several battery packs for sale on eBay now. At the moment these will be gobbled up by people who are converting classics into EVs. The number of garages that can do this sort of work is growing rapidly.
The parts market is quite interesting. I’ve had a habit of modifying my 911 and recently sold the old brake callipers and discs. The buyer has a parts business so no doubt feels that there’s more money in them. If the Taycan was broken up, the value of all the parts would be astronomical. Maybe one day I’ll take it apart in my workshop!
(Unless Model 3s and Ys are over that mark now?). Grantstown said:
The Taycan largely causes anxiety for non-owners for some reason.
....
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it's impossible to know whether you're hearing about one case repeated a million times, or a million genuine cases. Also what the motivation of those moaning is.....
It's also the case that people like to whinge more than laud.
I imagine the vast majority of those moaning about residuals never had any intention of buying one anyway. Such is life.
Am very happy with mine (if they release one that's a tonne lighter and 4in narrower I might be miffed). I tend to keep my cars a while, so the warranty side was a known "risk" and if Porsche don't offer extendeds on the battery pack, so be it. I do think it will be a mistake on their part in terms of confidence in the product. But fully understand why it is where it is at present. End of the day, warranties are an insurance product.
Grantstown said:
The Taycan largely causes anxiety for non-owners for some reason.
Having completed a 2 minute Google, it’s interesting to see that the battery can be dropped from the car (in a similar way to the engine/gearbox in a 911) and individual modules can be replaced. There are several battery packs for sale on eBay now. At the moment these will be gobbled up by people who are converting classics into EVs. The number of garages that can do this sort of work is growing rapidly.
I doubt Porsche replaces the complete battery if there is a problem with it. They're designed to be repaired. I guess at some stage 10+ years down the line maybe so much of it will need replacing that it no longer makes sense but let's see. Having completed a 2 minute Google, it’s interesting to see that the battery can be dropped from the car (in a similar way to the engine/gearbox in a 911) and individual modules can be replaced. There are several battery packs for sale on eBay now. At the moment these will be gobbled up by people who are converting classics into EVs. The number of garages that can do this sort of work is growing rapidly.
Murph7355 said:
Grantstown said:
The Taycan largely causes anxiety for non-owners for some reason.
....
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it's impossible to know whether you're hearing about one case repeated a million times, or a million genuine cases. Also what the motivation of those moaning is.....
It's also the case that people like to whinge more than laud.
I imagine the vast majority of those moaning about residuals never had any intention of buying one anyway. Such is life.
Am very happy with mine (if they release one that's a tonne lighter and 4in narrower I might be miffed). I tend to keep my cars a while, so the warranty side was a known "risk" and if Porsche don't offer extendeds on the battery pack, so be it. I do think it will be a mistake on their part in terms of confidence in the product. But fully understand why it is where it is at present. End of the day, warranties are an insurance product.
DMZ said:
I doubt Porsche replaces the complete battery if there is a problem with it. They're designed to be repaired. I guess at some stage 10+ years down the line maybe so much of it will need replacing that it no longer makes sense but let's see.
There have been cases (anecdotal) on the Taycan forum where the whole thing has been replaced.It'd be nice, however, if the whole pack were serviceable and that cells could be replaced by higher density ones if/when they became available... I don't see this happening though, otherwise the incentives for new shiny diminish.
DMZ said:
Grantstown said:
The Taycan largely causes anxiety for non-owners for some reason.
Having completed a 2 minute Google, it’s interesting to see that the battery can be dropped from the car (in a similar way to the engine/gearbox in a 911) and individual modules can be replaced. There are several battery packs for sale on eBay now. At the moment these will be gobbled up by people who are converting classics into EVs. The number of garages that can do this sort of work is growing rapidly.
I doubt Porsche replaces the complete battery if there is a problem with it. They're designed to be repaired. I guess at some stage 10+ years down the line maybe so much of it will need replacing that it no longer makes sense but let's see. Having completed a 2 minute Google, it’s interesting to see that the battery can be dropped from the car (in a similar way to the engine/gearbox in a 911) and individual modules can be replaced. There are several battery packs for sale on eBay now. At the moment these will be gobbled up by people who are converting classics into EVs. The number of garages that can do this sort of work is growing rapidly.
Just as they did with the 997 engines that went kaputt.
I suspect as the current BEV fleet ages and expands, there will be independents who spring up will be willing to tackle a strip down and repair and even upgrade, but this is probably years away, just as it was with 997 engines.
youngsyr said:
At least for the forseeable, Porsche absolutlely will replace the entire battery pack if there's a problem with it; they don't have the capability or the motivation to tear batteries apart looking for the fault.
Just as they did with the 997 engines that went kaputt.
I suspect as the current BEV fleet ages and expands, there will be independents who spring up will be willing to tackle a strip down and repair and even upgrade, but this is probably years away, just as it was with 997 engines.
Not true with the 997. First option under warranty for bore score was often a rebuild by the dealer. That's certainly what happened to me. And this was on a year old car that had done 7500 miles! I had to fight tooth and nail to get a new engine. And that was after they insisted it was other things like the oil separator etc which saw the car going back and forth (under Porsche instructions) before they confirmed what I suspected all along. Just as they did with the 997 engines that went kaputt.
I suspect as the current BEV fleet ages and expands, there will be independents who spring up will be willing to tackle a strip down and repair and even upgrade, but this is probably years away, just as it was with 997 engines.
Discombobulate said:
youngsyr said:
At least for the forseeable, Porsche absolutlely will replace the entire battery pack if there's a problem with it; they don't have the capability or the motivation to tear batteries apart looking for the fault.
Just as they did with the 997 engines that went kaputt.
I suspect as the current BEV fleet ages and expands, there will be independents who spring up will be willing to tackle a strip down and repair and even upgrade, but this is probably years away, just as it was with 997 engines.
Not true with the 997. First option under warranty for bore score was often a rebuild by the dealer. That's certainly what happened to me. And this was on a year old car that had done 7500 miles! I had to fight tooth and nail to get a new engine. And that was after they insisted it was other things like the oil separator etc which saw the car going back and forth (under Porsche instructions) before they confirmed what I suspected all along. Just as they did with the 997 engines that went kaputt.
I suspect as the current BEV fleet ages and expands, there will be independents who spring up will be willing to tackle a strip down and repair and even upgrade, but this is probably years away, just as it was with 997 engines.
That is the actual fix that the dealers didn't do and only independents do now.
youngsyr said:
Discombobulate said:
youngsyr said:
At least for the forseeable, Porsche absolutlely will replace the entire battery pack if there's a problem with it; they don't have the capability or the motivation to tear batteries apart looking for the fault.
Just as they did with the 997 engines that went kaputt.
I suspect as the current BEV fleet ages and expands, there will be independents who spring up will be willing to tackle a strip down and repair and even upgrade, but this is probably years away, just as it was with 997 engines.
Not true with the 997. First option under warranty for bore score was often a rebuild by the dealer. That's certainly what happened to me. And this was on a year old car that had done 7500 miles! I had to fight tooth and nail to get a new engine. And that was after they insisted it was other things like the oil separator etc which saw the car going back and forth (under Porsche instructions) before they confirmed what I suspected all along. Just as they did with the 997 engines that went kaputt.
I suspect as the current BEV fleet ages and expands, there will be independents who spring up will be willing to tackle a strip down and repair and even upgrade, but this is probably years away, just as it was with 997 engines.
That is the actual fix that the dealers didn't do and only independents do now.
GT4RS said:
Porsche would be mad not to allow an extended warranty on the battery packs. My thoughts are they will and will charge accordingly for this type of cover.
Extended warranties are an insurance product....if Porsche's policy is to replace an entire battery I think the warranty will be expensive. It's not like normal car warranty where most claims will be for under £2k. It'll be either no claim or a £40k claim...sure the probability of the latter is low but it's a big claim.Think of it this way....if you charge someone £1k a year for five years for a warranty on a £40k battery is that a good risk for the insurance company to take ? Let's not forget they don't have years and years of data so they can model the risk...it's all new territory.
..it is an insurance product, but it’s not in total isolation. They have to support their brand, which relies on Porsche supporting their very poor reliability record. I suspect it’s a loss leader and is required to keep the perfumed reputation. The average claims on warranty wise are very high. From memory the Cayenne claims are the highest.
The problems with the 996/997 and Cayennes have shown that it becomes an opportunity for remedial industries to spring up and provide cost effective solutions.
I will keep a Taycan warranty mainly because it’s a heavy car and it wants to destroy its suspension. The main battery seems as good as new after 3 years. No doubt some will fail, just like some engines give up, but it will probably not be much different to the current ICE situation and manageable within the warranty scheme, which is most likely supported over and above a typical insurance product. Porsche make the highest margin on new cars so there are funds to support this.
After a while people won’t have a warranty, but by then these people will benefit from a growing network of battery specialists and a decreasing cost of replacement parts. It’s not a complex job and the parts are already out there. It’s always the same with cars.
The problems with the 996/997 and Cayennes have shown that it becomes an opportunity for remedial industries to spring up and provide cost effective solutions.
I will keep a Taycan warranty mainly because it’s a heavy car and it wants to destroy its suspension. The main battery seems as good as new after 3 years. No doubt some will fail, just like some engines give up, but it will probably not be much different to the current ICE situation and manageable within the warranty scheme, which is most likely supported over and above a typical insurance product. Porsche make the highest margin on new cars so there are funds to support this.
After a while people won’t have a warranty, but by then these people will benefit from a growing network of battery specialists and a decreasing cost of replacement parts. It’s not a complex job and the parts are already out there. It’s always the same with cars.
Cheib said:
....
Think of it this way....if you charge someone £1k a year for five years for a warranty on a £40k battery is that a good risk for the insurance company to take ? Let's not forget they don't have years and years of data so they can model the risk...it's all new territory.
Which is kind of where the conversation was.Think of it this way....if you charge someone £1k a year for five years for a warranty on a £40k battery is that a good risk for the insurance company to take ? Let's not forget they don't have years and years of data so they can model the risk...it's all new territory.
Give it a few more years and their body of data should be good enough to extend the extended warranty coverage or not.
(The hybrid Panamera is a different beast).
Grantstown said:
.....
I will keep a Taycan warranty mainly because it’s a heavy car and it wants to destroy its suspension.....
Note that suspension is a typical exclusion on their extended warranties too, although specifically "dampers" iirc. Not sure how that plays with air suspension.I will keep a Taycan warranty mainly because it’s a heavy car and it wants to destroy its suspension.....
It'd be nice to think I could take my Taycan to the arches in a decade and get 350miles range added with new cells though
youngsyr said:
But did they actually tear down the engine and replace the cylinder liner or block?
That is the actual fix that the dealers didn't do and only independents do now.
As I said, that is what the Porsche dealer were told to do by Porsche, but I refused and demanded a new engine. Which, I thought at the time, would fix the problem. Suffice to say that I know have a 4.1 Hartech engine...That is the actual fix that the dealers didn't do and only independents do now.
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