Are the 17" Wheels really best for road use on Blighty Black

[Simon Owen]

There is an informative article by David Twohig on "The Intercooler" about the ever increasing demand for bigger alloy wheels.

I'm currently running the Fuchs 18's with big brakes so a pretty good starting point by modern standards but I'd be fascinated to try the 17's and see if I could tell the difference / notice an improvement in ride & handling for road use ? Prior to the Alpine we ran a lightly modified GT86 on modest 17" wheels and 215 PS4 boots and I don't ever recall thinking it lacked grip for the road.

I never really did understand if the Alpine 17" wheels will fit over the big brakes, I think I've read that they do albeit Alpine don't give us the option when ordering a car.

Interesting that Life110 have stuck with the 18's but added a tad extra width in their 'upgraded' wheel set.

[biggles330d]

I specified mine on the standard 17's after having numerous cars optioned up with 18/19 inch rims and in every instance then changing them back to smaller ones to cure terrible ride quality. I'd be the first to accept the 18's generally are more aesthetically pleasing but I really don't think on public roads you loose that much in terms of handling having a bit more sidewall but if previous experience is anything to go by, you gain a lot more in comfort.
It is a bit disappointing it's not possible to have the big brakes with them, but then I have to tell myself it's a light car and the standard brakes are far from inadequate - the point of a light car its to remove the necessity too have vast discs to slow the thing down. Plus, from what I found in research, the standard discs are considerably less costly to replace as and when that needs to happen. As a long term ownership proposition, it did take some discipline to step away from simply how the thing looked and be realistic on how I was planning to use it and specify accordingly.

[Olivera]

Not an A110 owner here, but I think the effect of going up or down 1" wheel diameter is often grossly over exaggerated on PH.

Ride quality is a combination of various things: spring rate, tyre sidewall, unsprung mass, anti-roll bar stiffness and so on. The amount of tyre sidewall is just one part of the equation. An A110 on 205/40/17 has exactly the same amount of sidewall (205*.40=82mm) as an 205/40/18 tyre. How can the ride quality be significantly better on the 17" tyres given they have the same spring rate, the same sidewall thickness, the same anti-roll bars, and only a small improvement in unsprung mass? It's an impossibility for the ride to be anything other than marginally better.

[PhilipIbrahim]

In the comments of The Intercooler article I asked David Twohig specifically about the A110 and his response was "Specifically on the A110, as there is only an inch in it, there is not THAT much difference between the two wheel sizes. Sure, the 17s are a tad more fluid, and hence would be my personal choice, but the low mass of the car means it rides fine on either. But I would say that, wouldn’t I? ;-)".

[Simon Owen]

Olivera said:

Not an A110 owner here, but I think the effect of going up or down 1" wheel diameter is often grossly over exaggerated on PH.

Ride quality is a combination of various things: spring rate, tyre sidewall, unsprung mass, anti-roll bar stiffness and so on. The amount of tyre sidewall is just one part of the equation. An A110 on 205/40/17 has exactly the same amount of sidewall (205*.40=82mm) as an 205/40/18 tyre. How can the ride quality be significantly better on the 17" tyres given they have the same spring rate, the same sidewall thickness, the same anti-roll bars, and only a small improvement in unsprung mass? It's an impossibility for the ride to be anything other than marginally better.

Tyre profiles are not the same - the 17's come with a deeper profile of 45 vs the 18's which have a profile of 40, not a huge difference but a subtle one all the same.

[Olivera]

Simon Owen said:

Olivera said:

Not an A110 owner here, but I think the effect of going up or down 1" wheel diameter is often grossly over exaggerated on PH.

Ride quality is a combination of various things: spring rate, tyre sidewall, unsprung mass, anti-roll bar stiffness and so on. The amount of tyre sidewall is just one part of the equation. An A110 on 205/40/17 has exactly the same amount of sidewall (205*.40=82mm) as an 205/40/18 tyre. How can the ride quality be significantly better on the 17" tyres given they have the same spring rate, the same sidewall thickness, the same anti-roll bars, and only a small improvement in unsprung mass? It's an impossibility for the ride to be anything other than marginally better.

Tyre profiles are not the same - the 17's come with a deeper profile of 45 vs the 18's which have a profile of 40, not a huge difference but a subtle one all the same.

Thanks for the correction, so the 17s have a sidewall of 205*.45=92.25mm, so about 12.5% more sidewall than the 18s. Again a relatively small difference when holding all the other variables the same (e.g. spring rate), so again probably a very slight improvement in ride quality, at the expense of very slightly worse turn-in due to the higher sidewall.

[Simon Owen]

Olivera said:

Simon Owen said:

Olivera said:

Not an A110 owner here, but I think the effect of going up or down 1" wheel diameter is often grossly over exaggerated on PH.

Ride quality is a combination of various things: spring rate, tyre sidewall, unsprung mass, anti-roll bar stiffness and so on. The amount of tyre sidewall is just one part of the equation. An A110 on 205/40/17 has exactly the same amount of sidewall (205*.40=82mm) as an 205/40/18 tyre. How can the ride quality be significantly better on the 17" tyres given they have the same spring rate, the same sidewall thickness, the same anti-roll bars, and only a small improvement in unsprung mass? It's an impossibility for the ride to be anything other than marginally better.

Tyre profiles are not the same - the 17's come with a deeper profile of 45 vs the 18's which have a profile of 40, not a huge difference but a subtle one all the same.

Thanks for the correction, so the 17s have a sidewall of 205*.45=92.25mm, so about 12.5% more sidewall than the 18s. Again a relatively small difference when holding all the other variables the same (e.g. spring rate), so again probably a very slight improvement in ride quality, at the expense of very slightly worse turn-in due to the higher sidewall.

Yes more sidewall + a bit less unsprung mass, note the difference in unsprung mass increases quite a lot between the Fuchs & Non Fuchs options, the 18" Serac alloys are for example quite a bit heavier than the 18" Fuchs. I'm interested to see how this translates in the real world ?

[Olivera]

Simon Owen said:

Yes more sidewall + a bit less unsprung mass, note the difference in unsprung mass increases quite a lot between the Fuchs & Non Fuchs options, the 18" Serac alloys are for example quite a bit heavier than the 18" Fuchs. I'm interested to see how this translates in the real world ?

I guess you would need to test them back-to-back and make a judgement, but beware of the placebo effect given the only real difference (since you have the Fuchs) is 12.5% extra sidewall.

[Coilover]

You would have to be some serious driver to REALLY notice the difference. I like the look of a big wheel (at least I’m honest) and if the difference is minimal then it works both ways.

[bcr5784]

Coilover said:

You would have to be some serious driver to REALLY notice the difference. I like the look of a big wheel (at least I’m honest) and if the difference is minimal then it works both ways.

I'm not sure about that. I've not tried an A110 on 17" so I can't be sure on the Alpine, but I ran my Cayman on both 18 and 19s, and have tried 20s and you certainly could tell the difference. If as Life 110 says that the 17s fit over the big brakes that combo would seem to be the best functionally- lowest unsprung weight, best ride least likely to be curbed. And for the avoidance of doubt I'm not a really serious driver.

Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 1st December 08:21

[Simon Owen]

Likewise I’m no serious driver but have changed wheel size by 1” down on other cars and you can notice the difference, it’s that which made me curious about doing it on the A110.

[Portti]

Does the A110 come with the same tyres with 17" and 18" wheels? I think that the tyre plays a big role with regards to the steering feel and handling.

I've not run the same car with different wheel size and with same brand/type tyres but I've got plenty of experience in running the same car with different size wheels since here in Finland winter tyres are mandatory and most people run winter tyres on smaller wheels. My recent cars have had one inch smaller winter wheels (either 19" vs. 18" or 18" vs. 17") with winter tyres always narrower and with higher sidewall.

The difference in handling and steering feel is very easily noticable by even very novice drivers. Most of that is most likely due to big difference in tyre compounds and other differences in tyre properties (including the fact that winter tyres have been spike tyres) but wheel size plays a role in this too.

[PaulJC84]

I think I have seen pictures of Braid and protrack 17s on A110s.


Braid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaTuPeFt2iU


Protrack
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=...

https://www.facebook.com/352841038821700/posts/a11...

[bcr5784]

PaulJC84 said:

I think I have seen pictures of Braid and protrack 17s on A110s.


Braid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaTuPeFt2iU

/

The warning that jacking the car might cause the windscreen to crack was worth a thought.

[Simon Owen]

bcr5784 said:

PaulJC84 said:

I think I have seen pictures of Braid and protrack 17s on A110s.


Braid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaTuPeFt2iU

/

The warning that jacking the car might cause the windscreen to crack was worth a thought.

Agreed !!! Putting stress on the car diagonally I guess, one to watch with tyre fitters as they don't all use 4x way lifts do they.

[Sporky]

Portti said:

The difference in handling and steering feel is very easily noticable by even very novice drivers.

Yup - my Yeti had 17s for summer and 16s for winter. The 16s were amusingly boingy.

My A110 has 17s and standard brakes; I've never felt the latter lacking, but I don't take it on track and I don't hoon around. I do sometimes press the go pedal all the way down, and I don't always slow down for corners, so I'm not treating it like a Nissan Micra, but I don't regard every trip as a competitive hillclimb.

Personally I like the look of the 17s too. I've driven A110s with 18s as well, and I don't remember a jarring difference between the feel on the different wheels, but those drives were many months apart.

[tony993]

I’ve ordered my car (due end of March) with 17s. I prefer the look of 17s. I’ve often downsized my cars’ wheels by an inch, & I could easily feel the benefit every time.

I downsized my F360 (came with 19” 430 wheels) to 18s & this gave a good improvement, certainly with comfort, & also, I think, the car’s behaviour. My first set of 18s were the modular design (heaviest of the various 18” options). I managed to buy a set of the 18” Challenge wheels (loads lighter) & although there was a huge difference when I was handling the wheels to change them, I was disappointed to find I couldn’t feel the difference when driving, although this was on a 1400KG car with stupid suspension that was too stiff for everything other than a smooth road on a warm, dry day.

I didn’t consider the big brakes because, as mentioned, Alpine will only sell you the big brakes if you buy some 18” wheels, & this makes the brakes very expensive if you don’t want any of the 18” wheels they offer. I will likely change my factory 17s for some wider 17s (sticking with the same size tyre, so the tyres will be stretched across the wheels, & the car won’t slop about in the tyres so much). I’ll put some all season tyres on the factory 17s for winter use.

As for the brakes, I have change to braided hoses & fitted hard front pads to several of my cars, & in my opinion this gives the biggest improvement for the least money of any modification you can make.

If I fit braided hoses & hard pads & I’m still not happy with my new A110 then there’s always the option of adding my own big brake upgrade. I have a note somewhere of a company that make aluminium brackets that go between the hub & calliper, to move the calliper out & allow for bigger discs. Also, if I really wanted to, I could get some custom made ali belled discs, & I’m sure this would give a good saving over the factory 320mm discs.

[PaulJC84]

I am sure I read somewhere that the OEM larger brakes are lighter than the smaller ones too.

[Althalus]

I'm hoping to get an A110 to replace the current Alfa qf.

I've been wondering about this question. The main draw of bigger wheels is the big brakes which I'm sure I read somewhere in the main thread (life 110) can't be retrofitted. My local dealer does not have a car with 17inch wheels so it's tricky to tesr. I'm not going to track the car and I'm not a driving god.

What I would like and can't find are people opinions of the 17inch Vs 18 inch and regular Vs big brakes. As has been stated they end up a very costly option when combined!

[Sporky]

Althalus said:

What I would like and can't find are people opinions of the 17inch Vs 18 inch and regular Vs big brakes. As has been stated they end up a very costly option when combined!

I did my test drive, and Piste Bleu at Goodwood, in cars with 18s and big brakes. Test drive was a Legende with a lot of options, Piste Bleu was a PE. My A110 is a Pure on 17s with (of course) small brakes.

My take is that there isn't a massive difference; the 17s do make the car just a teeny bot softer, I think, but my drives in the cars with 18s were a good few months before I got mine. The standard brakes are very effective; I don't drive like a lunatic, but they will shed speed at a borderline uncomfortable rate with enough pressure.

I seem to remember that Jason at the Winchester dealer had driven both back-to-back, and felt that the 17s had a bit more compliance and the 18s had slightly sharper turn-in.. My experience is that it feels like the same car either way so the differences aren't huge, and that for normal driving (and I do enjoy it, but I don't hammer it everywhere) the normal brakes are more than adequate. So probably go with whichever you like the looks of, and are happy with the price of.