fuel pump fails in current production
Discussion
tobi.mimoto said:
Some very good reasons are provided in this thread, illustrating why it's not that simple. In short, the number of fuel pump failures is nowhere near high enough to justify a recall.
Also, any A110's deemed to be at risk of failing, have (/will have) their fuel pumps replaced during their next (or most recent) annual service. Again, it's definitely far from fun for the (relatively) few owners who have experienced it up until now, and I really feel their pain. However, this does not come close to justifying a full or partial recall. The unreliable pumps are being changed during annual services though.
I do not buy any of this at all. The only reason there isn't a pro-active recall is because the number of owners is small and the cars are expensive meaning there is little chance of press coverage or even attention from the authorities. If Toyota sold 100,000 examples of a car and it racked up 1000 (1%) total power loss due to a single defective part then Toyota could not sit around waiting for owners to discover the failures one by one.Also, any A110's deemed to be at risk of failing, have (/will have) their fuel pumps replaced during their next (or most recent) annual service. Again, it's definitely far from fun for the (relatively) few owners who have experienced it up until now, and I really feel their pain. However, this does not come close to justifying a full or partial recall. The unreliable pumps are being changed during annual services though.
I do not think normal vs sport makes a difference. Nor does stop/start, nor does fuel type or quality.
Possibly heat (in the fuel and overall tank) is an influence. One of the ways this car is different to other cars and Renaults that surely use fuel pumps that do NOT need multiple design revisions is the heat emitters right in front of the tank, which soak the whole front cargo area in temps of 100c.
Possibly heat (in the fuel and overall tank) is an influence. One of the ways this car is different to other cars and Renaults that surely use fuel pumps that do NOT need multiple design revisions is the heat emitters right in front of the tank, which soak the whole front cargo area in temps of 100c.
exactly
this is an old piece from motor trend but remember the a110 tank is plastic not metal, it is not in airflow like rear tank cars with a metal tank exposed to the underside, it is near the radiators, it is not large in size, it pumps the fuel continuously into a hot rear engine bay and the fuel comes back that is not used.
this is an old piece from motor trend but remember the a110 tank is plastic not metal, it is not in airflow like rear tank cars with a metal tank exposed to the underside, it is near the radiators, it is not large in size, it pumps the fuel continuously into a hot rear engine bay and the fuel comes back that is not used.
Edited by a110au on Wednesday 16th August 00:28
Teatowell said:
Doesn’t explain why there’s always reference of dealers having to re code injectors in which case?
Maybe the software change is considered in some way to be more protective of the pump under certain scenarios or maybe it is to alter the behavior if/when the pump fails or partially fails. For example, under boost, if the pump fails, the engine can go suddenly lean and detonate itself. All is speculation as alpine appear to regard any helpful information to customers as an admission of corporate weakness or liability in some way.If I was determined to investigate the cause I would put some kind of inline fuel temp sensor on the pump output and set it up as a gauge in the car.
All the walbro in-tank pumps have an operating temp range up to 155f which is probably higher than whatever pump renault is using seeing as Walbro pretty much is the go/to for quality. 155f is only 68c. if the gas heading to the engine is over 68c (not a crazy target as the radiators there are handling 100c water) for any time then it is likely the pump is getting damaged.
Inline gas temp sensors are available or you can just wrap a contact sensor around the gas line.
or, even cheaper but more lagged, get a 12v bluetooth temp sensor that has an app and stick it on the bottom of the tank.
something like this guy measures up to 85c and is self powered for two years just run an app to see data:
All the walbro in-tank pumps have an operating temp range up to 155f which is probably higher than whatever pump renault is using seeing as Walbro pretty much is the go/to for quality. 155f is only 68c. if the gas heading to the engine is over 68c (not a crazy target as the radiators there are handling 100c water) for any time then it is likely the pump is getting damaged.
Inline gas temp sensors are available or you can just wrap a contact sensor around the gas line.
or, even cheaper but more lagged, get a 12v bluetooth temp sensor that has an app and stick it on the bottom of the tank.
Edited by a110au on Thursday 24th August 02:41
something like this guy measures up to 85c and is self powered for two years just run an app to see data:
Edited by a110au on Thursday 24th August 02:45
again for completeness another popped in the UK. It was S plate which I believe means registered in September 2021 onwards.
The owner was super pissed off because they had an alternator failure this year and while there, agitated for a pro-active fuel pump swap knowing it was likely to happen but was fobbed off with "platitudes" by Alpine -- the car failed with the check injector message a thousand miles or so down the road.
Perhaps with the end of hotter temps in Europe combined with cars getting stored till spring this will be one of the last this year.
The owner was super pissed off because they had an alternator failure this year and while there, agitated for a pro-active fuel pump swap knowing it was likely to happen but was fobbed off with "platitudes" by Alpine -- the car failed with the check injector message a thousand miles or so down the road.
Perhaps with the end of hotter temps in Europe combined with cars getting stored till spring this will be one of the last this year.
Andy665 said:
It would be interesting to know how many cars have had this issue inthe UK and what % of the cars sold have been affected by it.
It seems like a cery real problem but also know such things can very easily get taken out of context ad owners of cars not affected understandably stay quiet
I am gonna suggest some simple logic: since Alpine believe a redesign was necessary to fix the issue snd the ”latest” effort in thar area has addressed it (notwithstanding the possibility an a110r failed, calling this into question) then all the others before have failed, or will fail.It seems like a cery real problem but also know such things can very easily get taken out of context ad owners of cars not affected understandably stay quiet
That they have not yet failed is just usage patterns and luck. Lack of mileage, lack of certain heat scenarios combined with particular fueling scenarios, and perhaps steady accumulation of damage that does not cross a threshold yet.
a fuel pump is a wear item. In a normal car it can last 200,000 and 20 years but it has rotating parts, it has a stator and carbon brushes it sits in a petrol tank with contaminants and water condensation.
If it were just a “small number” of “bad parts” there would not be any need to update the pump design or the software. So if the original, or replacement but non updated, pump has not failed yet then just use the car more, and in hotter weather, in slow traffic, imo just by physics and the logic of mass production it is inevitable it will let go.
Julian Thompson said:
But if you think logically how is the fuel getting warm inside your tank, hidden from the sun under the bonnet and plastic panels and six feet from your engine and exhaust?
Put a toolbox in the frunk go on a one hour drive then try to handle a spanner. You wont be able to hold it.Colin P said:
I may be wrong in my logic, but the thermostat seems to open at about 102-103 degrees, I suspect on a motorway run the thermostat isn’t opening as when it does the temps drop quite rapidly and drop by quite some amount.
it opens and closes. There is no way on a motorway run the engine will stay cool without full loop cooled water flow. Anyway, for all we know long term damage originating from heat occurs mostly in traffic, or mostly with ambient air over 30c or mostly when fuel capacity is in the lower third, or there has been recent spirited driving, then some traffic, and the cabin AC is on and the fuel pump controller has original firmware, and this is the 7th episode. Who knows? its clearly a magic combination of events plus time.Alpine will not even mention the word heat. So its just speculation.
as far as I am aware australian premier editions were produced in a batch at a similar time to UK premier editions. Someone with more knowledge can confirm the exact dates but I am aware that of the 60 numbered versions a good chunk - like well over 25% - have had fuel pump failures to date (including mine, at 12,000 kms
and three years) and most or all were not pro-actively recalled for fp replacement before failure.
Australia is obviously hotter on average than UK.
and three years) and most or all were not pro-actively recalled for fp replacement before failure.
Australia is obviously hotter on average than UK.
AlexNJ89 said:
What would you like Alpine to do?
They have several revisions of the fuel pump already and working in a solution to end the problem.
If it is fixed, replace all the revisions that are known to fail with the fixed version, for free. Shocking, I know. Too expensive for a niche automaker? might cost a lot? there are 9000 cars, half may need it, and it might cost $500 per car ($2.5m)?They have several revisions of the fuel pump already and working in a solution to end the problem.
well alpine is owned fully by Renault and Renault stashed 500 million euros from their stake in Nissan, last year. Renault group made a net profit of 1.6 billion euro. The alpine f1 team budget $135 million.
But wait, I hear you say, they are not sure the latest version fixes the problem? then plan “B”: disclose this, and promise a full replacement when the problem is understood and solved.
I regret to bump this thread however two more failures this week, reported in FB group ..
A white alpine in Lisbon (pump had been replaced in 2020 during recall for 2019 models).
A UK one after a 130 mile round trip that conked out at the end of the trip, in his garage. His was a 2022 reg.
And a new member joined the thread with a picture of his black one on a flat bed and same story, also 2022 reg.
Not sure exact date. Possibly earlier in the year.
A white alpine in Lisbon (pump had been replaced in 2020 during recall for 2019 models).
A UK one after a 130 mile round trip that conked out at the end of the trip, in his garage. His was a 2022 reg.
And a new member joined the thread with a picture of his black one on a flat bed and same story, also 2022 reg.
Not sure exact date. Possibly earlier in the year.
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